Preflight Checks, Have Your Say!!
Persona non grata
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So IF it becomes normal in Australia for only Pilots to do the preflights, who will you blame next time you miss something? 
What's that you say, oh yourself.
Well at least you will not be able to keep blaming LAMEs.
What's that you say, oh yourself.
Well at least you will not be able to keep blaming LAMEs.
The Reverend
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lame, the reason I didn't get the sack like VTM suggested he would have done and the reason the DFO refused to accept my resignation from Check & Training was due to the extenuating circumstances. If you re read my original post, you might conclude that I didn't try and absolve my mistake by blaming the LAME but did stress that I was badly let down by them. I fully admit my mistake, I wouldn't have posted if I were otherwise inclined. From the tone of your replies however, I wonder how many of you share the same philosophy?
Thread Starter
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I think it's time I step in and say something, as I originated this thread.
It was never the intention to start a war between Flight deck and Ground crews, and I believe enough dirty laundery has been air. The whole intent of this thread was to create an awareness of the issues facing Engineers now and in the future. These may or may not impact on pilots in the future but are a serious erosion of the duties, as perceived in Aust., for line station LAMES. Yes, I concede they may do it differently overseas but who says there way is the right way. The companies are continually looking for ways to reduce costs and pay shareholders dividends, we believe that this is gambling with the lives of the customers.
It may start by removing LAMES from the tarmac but once that has been done what next? Do we try and get a few more kilometers out of a set of tyres do we stretch the time between services or do we work on reducing the cost of those sitting in the pointy end.
We need to be supporting each other because ultimately we will all be targetted. We concede that Flight Crew are competent at their duties, and preflights are a part of them. We have no objection to Flt. crews doing their walk around in conjunction with that performed by Engineering, they compliment each other, We are together a redundant system, if one should fail the other is there to keep the reliability, and we all know that this is the basis for safety in the modern aircraft.
There has been support from some pilots and that is appreciated, I believe more crew are sympathetic to our plight and was looking for their endorsements.
It was never the intention to start a war between Flight deck and Ground crews, and I believe enough dirty laundery has been air. The whole intent of this thread was to create an awareness of the issues facing Engineers now and in the future. These may or may not impact on pilots in the future but are a serious erosion of the duties, as perceived in Aust., for line station LAMES. Yes, I concede they may do it differently overseas but who says there way is the right way. The companies are continually looking for ways to reduce costs and pay shareholders dividends, we believe that this is gambling with the lives of the customers.
It may start by removing LAMES from the tarmac but once that has been done what next? Do we try and get a few more kilometers out of a set of tyres do we stretch the time between services or do we work on reducing the cost of those sitting in the pointy end.
We need to be supporting each other because ultimately we will all be targetted. We concede that Flight Crew are competent at their duties, and preflights are a part of them. We have no objection to Flt. crews doing their walk around in conjunction with that performed by Engineering, they compliment each other, We are together a redundant system, if one should fail the other is there to keep the reliability, and we all know that this is the basis for safety in the modern aircraft.
There has been support from some pilots and that is appreciated, I believe more crew are sympathetic to our plight and was looking for their endorsements.
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I was just wondering how big an aircraft has to be before the ALAEA deem it worthy of being 100% LAME 100% safe.
Every day when I get to work I jump in my up to 50 seat Dash 8-300 and happily tootle around the sky with the knowledge that according to the MR a LAME only has to look at the aircraft every 80 odd hours.
I sign the daily, LAMEs only look at it at a line check about once a week. Of course they wander past it every day but the only time a LAME is required to make his mark is a line check.
When will I be 100% safe? Am I now? will I every be?
Every day when I get to work I jump in my up to 50 seat Dash 8-300 and happily tootle around the sky with the knowledge that according to the MR a LAME only has to look at the aircraft every 80 odd hours.
I sign the daily, LAMEs only look at it at a line check about once a week. Of course they wander past it every day but the only time a LAME is required to make his mark is a line check.
When will I be 100% safe? Am I now? will I every be?
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Pimp Daddy
Correct me if I am wrong but I cannot recall a fatality in any aircraft ( flying Aust/ New Zealand) greater in size and capacity than a Dash 8, in the last 20 years.
In the last 10 years alone there have been 194 fatal accidents, and 382 fatalities attributed to a/c not in the catergory of High Capacity Aircraft . Unfortunately for you the Dash 8 is rated as an RPT a/c and doesn't make the cut.
All of these a/c would have been having their 80 hour checks, but as you can see accidents happen.
I wish you continued good fortune.
Correct me if I am wrong but I cannot recall a fatality in any aircraft ( flying Aust/ New Zealand) greater in size and capacity than a Dash 8, in the last 20 years.
In the last 10 years alone there have been 194 fatal accidents, and 382 fatalities attributed to a/c not in the catergory of High Capacity Aircraft . Unfortunately for you the Dash 8 is rated as an RPT a/c and doesn't make the cut.
All of these a/c would have been having their 80 hour checks, but as you can see accidents happen.
I wish you continued good fortune.
Persona non grata
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Pimp Daddy,
While I am sure what you said is what you believe really happens, I doubt it very much.
We had exactly the same system for years with the DC9 freighters.
YES, the new Maintenance Release was only issued every 90 hours (in our case), normally at a Check 1,2 3 or 4, and YES the Captain signed the Daily.
The Maintenance Release remained in force for the 90 hours, unless there was a major defect or major damage to the Aircraft, and if on rare trips the Aircraft had to overnight where we didn't have an Engineer, then the Captain actually did the Daily, well he signed for it, I hope he did it.
HOWEVER, much work was done on these Aircraft by LAMEs (including this Lame) every day, as long as they overnighted where thy were supposed to. Obvious things like doing the Daily, engine oil replenishment, hydraulic oil replenishment, oxygen etc.
Any defects that were NOT major found on our Daily, or reported by the Crew, were also rectified.
As someone pointed out earlier on this thread (or it might have been a different thread?), just because you don't see LAMEs for your departure in the morning, or a signature in the M/R, does NOT mean that they have not been servicing your Aircraft for you.
Best regards,
Lame.
While I am sure what you said is what you believe really happens, I doubt it very much.
We had exactly the same system for years with the DC9 freighters.
YES, the new Maintenance Release was only issued every 90 hours (in our case), normally at a Check 1,2 3 or 4, and YES the Captain signed the Daily.
The Maintenance Release remained in force for the 90 hours, unless there was a major defect or major damage to the Aircraft, and if on rare trips the Aircraft had to overnight where we didn't have an Engineer, then the Captain actually did the Daily, well he signed for it, I hope he did it.
HOWEVER, much work was done on these Aircraft by LAMEs (including this Lame) every day, as long as they overnighted where thy were supposed to. Obvious things like doing the Daily, engine oil replenishment, hydraulic oil replenishment, oxygen etc.
Any defects that were NOT major found on our Daily, or reported by the Crew, were also rectified.
As someone pointed out earlier on this thread (or it might have been a different thread?), just because you don't see LAMEs for your departure in the morning, or a signature in the M/R, does NOT mean that they have not been servicing your Aircraft for you.
Best regards,
Lame.
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I didn't think this thread was about defects, I thought it was about not requiring preflight inspections by engineers.
I pointed out that my aircraft does not need (nor does it get) a daily inspection of any kind by a LAME.
I did omit that the aircraft has it's oils checked first arrival at a maintenance base, but seeing that is 2 guys racing around with a stand and and oil dispenser their ain't much checking of anything else going on.
Of course the engineers also fix defects, but whilst it is rare for one to go line check to line check without a defect, it is not unusual to have no entries in the log for 3-4 days.
I pointed out that my aircraft does not need (nor does it get) a daily inspection of any kind by a LAME.
I did omit that the aircraft has it's oils checked first arrival at a maintenance base, but seeing that is 2 guys racing around with a stand and and oil dispenser their ain't much checking of anything else going on.
Of course the engineers also fix defects, but whilst it is rare for one to go line check to line check without a defect, it is not unusual to have no entries in the log for 3-4 days.
Persona non grata
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Well it was, up until you infered that an LAME only looks at your Aircraft every 80 hours.
You must remember that all sorts of people may read this, and we don't want them to get the wrong idea, do we.
You must remember that all sorts of people may read this, and we don't want them to get the wrong idea, do we.
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PimpDaddy,
So you admit the Engineers "wandering around''your aircraft are actually maintaining your aircraft and your aircraft does actually have defects between line checks.
How many of these defects go unreported?
VTM
So you admit the Engineers "wandering around''your aircraft are actually maintaining your aircraft and your aircraft does actually have defects between line checks.
How many of these defects go unreported?
VTM
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This post has been removed in the interest of harmony, but I have left the signature to highlight how serious these issues are becoming
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If you sweep the problem under the carpet, I wont go away!
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If you sweep the problem under the carpet, I wont go away!
Last edited by vortsa; 12th Apr 2004 at 23:04.
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I disagree with posting conversations that were obviously made in confidence. A good way to alienate yourselves from the pilots would be to get some-one into trouble over a slip of the tongue. This is not what I believe the lame's would be seeking, pilots and engineers are not the only readers on these forums.
Persona non grata
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sport,
I agree with you 100%.
However it was posted on a thread that is normally only read by Australian LAMEs, at a site that is mainly only for Aircraft Engineers/Mechanics, not all that public.
NOW by quoting it here on PPRuNe, it will be more public than the poster ever intended.
NOT me by the way.
Best regards,
Lame.
I agree with you 100%.
However it was posted on a thread that is normally only read by Australian LAMEs, at a site that is mainly only for Aircraft Engineers/Mechanics, not all that public.
NOW by quoting it here on PPRuNe, it will be more public than the poster ever intended.
NOT me by the way.
Best regards,
Lame.
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lame,
The closing signature by the lame revealing the conversation says it all, I think he intended for it to become public.
"If you sweep the problem under the carpet, I wont go away!"
The closing signature by the lame revealing the conversation says it all, I think he intended for it to become public.
"If you sweep the problem under the carpet, I wont go away!"
Persona non grata
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Maybe?
But unless it was you, under a different handle?
I really don't think you should be quoting him on a different web site, without his knowledge or permission.
But unless it was you, under a different handle?
I really don't think you should be quoting him on a different web site, without his knowledge or permission.