Preflight Checks, Have Your Say!!
The Reverend
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lame, the pins minus streamers were not our pins but belonged to heavy maintenance. I know the buck stops with me and that's why I still loose sleep over it. I missed seeing the pins but the very last item on our after start checklist says; "All cargo doors closed, all undercarriage pins removed." To which the Belgian departure LAME answered. All cargo doors closed, all pins removed.
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Are you sure he was an LAME?
I have worked in and/or been through most Countries with various Aircraft, and normally (apart from Australia) you do not even have a Mechanic do the departure, let alone an LAME.
Are you sure he even understood you?
You may find whatever you said he would have just answered the same as you said.
I was in the jump seat during pushback from CKS Taipei one morning, and there was a minor problem, the Crew started to tell the guy on the headset all about it, and he showed absolutely no interest. They were so used to LAMEs doing the pushbacks that they didn't realise this guy wasn't even a Mechanic and couldn't care about a problem, he was just doing his job, clearing the bay for another Aircraft.
Even at JFK we did the pushbacks at first, however the local contractors took over after a while, and there the only person on the end of the headset when they do it is the tug driver. Our Pilots still never taxied unless they had the thumbs up from us as well.
Anyway, as you said, the buck stops with you.
I have worked in and/or been through most Countries with various Aircraft, and normally (apart from Australia) you do not even have a Mechanic do the departure, let alone an LAME.
Are you sure he even understood you?
You may find whatever you said he would have just answered the same as you said.
I was in the jump seat during pushback from CKS Taipei one morning, and there was a minor problem, the Crew started to tell the guy on the headset all about it, and he showed absolutely no interest. They were so used to LAMEs doing the pushbacks that they didn't realise this guy wasn't even a Mechanic and couldn't care about a problem, he was just doing his job, clearing the bay for another Aircraft.
Even at JFK we did the pushbacks at first, however the local contractors took over after a while, and there the only person on the end of the headset when they do it is the tug driver. Our Pilots still never taxied unless they had the thumbs up from us as well.
Anyway, as you said, the buck stops with you.
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Well that explains it then the Engineers have been taken away from tarmac movements in Belgian and it was probably a bag chucker doing the departure, there lies our arguement. Remove the LAME from the ramp and this will be the norm.
The Reverend
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All well and good but the subsequent enquiry showed the pins removed on the worksheet and signed with the engineer's approval number. After that incident, I always looked for the holes rather than the pins during my walkaround.
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It is not JUST serious things like pins being left in either, IF I was a Pilot in Australia, I would be fighting to keep the LAMEs on tarmac and doing pushbacks.
And before someone quotes self interest, I am NOT currently involved at all, and don't plan on ever being again, just concerned.
When you have an LAME in Australia doing the pushbacks, you have someone whose whole working Life is the maintenance and safety of YOUR Aircraft, experience often gained over decades in the Industry.
Some of the operations I have been involved with in other Countries, while the people are GREAT, they are often not the least mechanically minded, and the people doing the pushbacks come and go almost weekly.
We had one Lady pushback driver in New York, first day on the job, insisted on doing the pushback on her own, she had the headset on but could hardly speak English. Got the Aircraft out okay, disconnected the towbar and backed the tug away, then couldn't understand why the Aircraft kept following her? Nobody from her Company had even told her that she had to tell the Crew to park the brakes.......... 
HotDog,
Your last reply was not there when I was composing my last reply.
Now you are providing yet another reason for LAMEs doing preflights.
You see whenever I have done any of my many thousands of preflights I have done over the years, and I am sure ALL LAMEs would be the same, I did ALWAYS check the actual holes and NOT just look for pins installed.
This is partly because while Pilots follow set proceedures (which IS their training), LAMEs are always on the lookout for something wrong or out of the ordinary.
Also once, MANY years ago now, I found on a preflight where a pin had broken off, so all the heads of the pins and the streamers were gone, but the actual pin was still in the hole.
Best regards,
Lame.
(Maybe should be ex Lame )
And before someone quotes self interest, I am NOT currently involved at all, and don't plan on ever being again, just concerned.
When you have an LAME in Australia doing the pushbacks, you have someone whose whole working Life is the maintenance and safety of YOUR Aircraft, experience often gained over decades in the Industry.
Some of the operations I have been involved with in other Countries, while the people are GREAT, they are often not the least mechanically minded, and the people doing the pushbacks come and go almost weekly.
We had one Lady pushback driver in New York, first day on the job, insisted on doing the pushback on her own, she had the headset on but could hardly speak English. Got the Aircraft out okay, disconnected the towbar and backed the tug away, then couldn't understand why the Aircraft kept following her?
Nobody from her Company had even told her that she had to tell the Crew to park the brakes.......... HotDog,
Your last reply was not there when I was composing my last reply.
Now you are providing yet another reason for LAMEs doing preflights.
You see whenever I have done any of my many thousands of preflights I have done over the years, and I am sure ALL LAMEs would be the same, I did ALWAYS check the actual holes and NOT just look for pins installed.
This is partly because while Pilots follow set proceedures (which IS their training), LAMEs are always on the lookout for something wrong or out of the ordinary.
Also once, MANY years ago now, I found on a preflight where a pin had broken off, so all the heads of the pins and the streamers were gone, but the actual pin was still in the hole.
Best regards,
Lame.
(Maybe should be ex Lame
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Latest Issue of the ALAEA newsletter. March edition:
"As this e-Torque goes to press, the ALAEA is vetting an audacious campaign to apply public pressure on the new low-cost airline JetStar to keep LAMEs on the tarmac. We don’t want to give too much away at present, but let’s just say that any traveller booking a flight with JetStar will be left in no doubt about what they are purchasing! Members will remember our successful campaign when Virgin Blue hatched a similar plan – the airline soon came to the conclusion that pilots should stick to their day jobs."
"Beware the ides of March."
Coming soon to an airport near you.
Legal Eagles Eye Pornstar
"Beware the ides of March."
Coming soon to an airport near you.
Stick to their day jobs huh?
no wonder the union doesn't get any support from pilots - the engineers yes, the union no.
may be the ALAEA officials should stick to their day job of protecting engineering jobs and stop pissing pilots off!
no wonder the union doesn't get any support from pilots - the engineers yes, the union no.
may be the ALAEA officials should stick to their day job of protecting engineering jobs and stop pissing pilots off!
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As I read the previous post, that is EXACTLY what they are trying to do? 
Protect the jobs of LAMEs, and also keep Aviation safer, that IS exactly what they are there for.
How does that piss Pilots off (as you put it).?
Protect the jobs of LAMEs, and also keep Aviation safer, that IS exactly what they are there for.
How does that piss Pilots off (as you put it).?
The inference is that pilots can't do walkarounds safely.
That is patently false and quite frankly rather annoying. The ALAEA needs the pilots on side NOT off side, and by telling us "to stick to our day jobs" they are getting us OFF side.
Remember all we are talking about here is preflight walkarounds NOT daily inspections, NOT scheduled or unscheduled maintenance, NOT any other type of engineering function - we are talking about an inspection that is not an engineering function in the manufacturers maintenance documentation.
It is like saying that engineers shouldn't taxi aircraft - they should stick to their day jobs - quite obviously a silly statement and engineers are perfectly capable of taxying aeroplanes around - though some companies don't let them for whatever reason.
The ALAEA would do better to lobby the manufacturers to get preflight exterior inspections changed in the MCM if they feel so strongly about it.
I am still miffed at the 100% LAME 100% safe campaign as that is a blatent misrepresentation of the truth.
NO aeroplane is 100% safe, regardless of whether an engineer inspects it or not, and the 100% LAME 100% safe campaign has the potential to create an image within the minds of those passengers who don't know the industry that their trip is 100% safe - cause it ain't.
Personally I would rather the ALAEA try and increase its membership by fighting against the practice of using AME's to do the majority of the work and having one or two LAME's who can't supervise everything sign for the work - that in my opinion is a far greater safety issue than preflight exterior inspections....
That is patently false and quite frankly rather annoying. The ALAEA needs the pilots on side NOT off side, and by telling us "to stick to our day jobs" they are getting us OFF side.
Remember all we are talking about here is preflight walkarounds NOT daily inspections, NOT scheduled or unscheduled maintenance, NOT any other type of engineering function - we are talking about an inspection that is not an engineering function in the manufacturers maintenance documentation.
It is like saying that engineers shouldn't taxi aircraft - they should stick to their day jobs - quite obviously a silly statement and engineers are perfectly capable of taxying aeroplanes around - though some companies don't let them for whatever reason.
The ALAEA would do better to lobby the manufacturers to get preflight exterior inspections changed in the MCM if they feel so strongly about it.
I am still miffed at the 100% LAME 100% safe campaign as that is a blatent misrepresentation of the truth.
NO aeroplane is 100% safe, regardless of whether an engineer inspects it or not, and the 100% LAME 100% safe campaign has the potential to create an image within the minds of those passengers who don't know the industry that their trip is 100% safe - cause it ain't.
Personally I would rather the ALAEA try and increase its membership by fighting against the practice of using AME's to do the majority of the work and having one or two LAME's who can't supervise everything sign for the work - that in my opinion is a far greater safety issue than preflight exterior inspections....
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It is quite obvious that you are just pi**ed off, the ALAEA is not doing it to you.
I have been in the Industry for over 40 years, during all that time I understood that the Pilots primary job (day job) was to fly (operate) the Aircraft.
Equally I understood that the LAMEs primary job (day job) was to be responsible for the maintenance and ongoing serviceability of the Aircraft.
IF this has changed, it is news to me.
I am perfectly happy to let Pilots continue to do their job, but why on Earth do some Pilots not want LAMEs to continue to do their job properly, for the safety of all who fly?
Incidentally LAMEs in Australia do NOT taxi Aircraft, although obviously they are capable, because it is NOT their job.
Just like up to now, LAMEs have always done preflights because it was there job.
I have had numerous events over the last 40 years, where we have had to call in a Pilot to taxi an Aircraft, sometimes for an engine run, sometimes for a compass swing etc. Many of us present at the time COULD have done it, but it was NOT our job.
I have been in the Industry for over 40 years, during all that time I understood that the Pilots primary job (day job) was to fly (operate) the Aircraft.
Equally I understood that the LAMEs primary job (day job) was to be responsible for the maintenance and ongoing serviceability of the Aircraft.
IF this has changed, it is news to me.
I am perfectly happy to let Pilots continue to do their job, but why on Earth do some Pilots not want LAMEs to continue to do their job properly, for the safety of all who fly?
Incidentally LAMEs in Australia do NOT taxi Aircraft, although obviously they are capable, because it is NOT their job.
Just like up to now, LAMEs have always done preflights because it was there job.
I have had numerous events over the last 40 years, where we have had to call in a Pilot to taxi an Aircraft, sometimes for an engine run, sometimes for a compass swing etc. Many of us present at the time COULD have done it, but it was NOT our job.
LAME, I am not trying to justify the removal of LAME's from preflights, I, however, am making the point that the ALAEA campaign, whether intentional or not, is alienating some pilots.
how many times have you heard someone comment to another person that "they shouldn't give up their day job" when they have told a bad joke, or donea shocker of a reverse park etc - that is hardly a complimentary statement - even if tongue in cheek.
I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with LAME's doing preflights, 2 sets of eyes are better than one, HOWEVER I do not believe that the sky will cave in if only the pilot inspects the aircraft during a turnaround - as per the manufacturers recommendations.
I can also tell you that LAME's DO taxi aircraft, maybe not some jets, but they certainly do taxi RPT turboprops and other aircraft.
The ALAEA should direct their campaign towards their real targets and not point the finger at pilots as per the recent campaign - people in glass houses etc...
I still believe that the use of untrained AME's poses a greater threat to aircraft safety than turn around inspections.
how many times have you heard someone comment to another person that "they shouldn't give up their day job" when they have told a bad joke, or donea shocker of a reverse park etc - that is hardly a complimentary statement - even if tongue in cheek.
I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with LAME's doing preflights, 2 sets of eyes are better than one, HOWEVER I do not believe that the sky will cave in if only the pilot inspects the aircraft during a turnaround - as per the manufacturers recommendations.
I can also tell you that LAME's DO taxi aircraft, maybe not some jets, but they certainly do taxi RPT turboprops and other aircraft.
The ALAEA should direct their campaign towards their real targets and not point the finger at pilots as per the recent campaign - people in glass houses etc...
I still believe that the use of untrained AME's poses a greater threat to aircraft safety than turn around inspections.
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IF you have no problem with it, why do you keep going on about it on this thread? 
It is ILLEGAL for LAMEs to taxi real Aircraft in Australia.
I have seen it in other Countries, and in Australia there have been a few concessions, like SAAB340s in Wagga Wagga, but in general with Airlines it is illegal.
It is ILLEGAL for LAMEs to taxi real Aircraft in Australia.
I have seen it in other Countries, and in Australia there have been a few concessions, like SAAB340s in Wagga Wagga, but in general with Airlines it is illegal.
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"I have worked all over the World with all sorts of different Pilots and Operators, and I have NEVER seen a situation where the Flight Crew don't also not only check that the pins are removed, but that they are stowed on board, usually actually counting them. "
You obviously have never worked at Qantas. The pins are stowed in the MEC and never get counted by the crew.
Sorry pilots, LAME and others are passionate about protecting their and my job. I commend them for that and hope they don't go overboard attacking pilots. I hope you guys understand the different light in which we view aircraft. Most lames leave school at 16, do an apprentiship and spend 40 years in maintenance. Every defect we find goes into a subconcious memory that is reopened everytime we see a similar situation. You cannot substitute that experience and every person who flies benefits from it. The sky will not fall in if we are replaced but it may be a contributing factor to one incident that could have been prevented. This is not a personal thing between pilots and engineers, this about money.
You obviously have never worked at Qantas. The pins are stowed in the MEC and never get counted by the crew.
Sorry pilots, LAME and others are passionate about protecting their and my job. I commend them for that and hope they don't go overboard attacking pilots. I hope you guys understand the different light in which we view aircraft. Most lames leave school at 16, do an apprentiship and spend 40 years in maintenance. Every defect we find goes into a subconcious memory that is reopened everytime we see a similar situation. You cannot substitute that experience and every person who flies benefits from it. The sky will not fall in if we are replaced but it may be a contributing factor to one incident that could have been prevented. This is not a personal thing between pilots and engineers, this about money.
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No, I have never worked for Qantas, why on Earth are they different to everyone else.
Also about the preflights, I believe that Ryanair in Europe, who would have to be one of the cheapest low cost carriers in the World, still insist on preflights being done by Engineers (and Pilots) as they are VERY concerned with costs, and they know it is cheaper in the long run to have Engineers (and Pilots) doing preflights, than have to wear the costs of delays etc.
Also about the preflights, I believe that Ryanair in Europe, who would have to be one of the cheapest low cost carriers in the World, still insist on preflights being done by Engineers (and Pilots) as they are VERY concerned with costs, and they know it is cheaper in the long run to have Engineers (and Pilots) doing preflights, than have to wear the costs of delays etc.
The Reverend
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Thanks for those kind words VTM, it must be great to be such a perfect specimen to never have made a mistake. I did in fact, tender my resignation from check and training but managment refused to accept it.
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Hotdog,
Must have been a great company you worked for, the check and training staff could not follow SOPs, All the items you mentioned you found during your walkaround are all included in the B747 ops manual, so if you missed them you not have been doing your job correctly.
You said you never trusted LAMEs after the gear pins incident then what opinion did the pilots have of you.
Is this the reason why you are so anti LAME?
VTM
Must have been a great company you worked for, the check and training staff could not follow SOPs, All the items you mentioned you found during your walkaround are all included in the B747 ops manual, so if you missed them you not have been doing your job correctly.
You said you never trusted LAMEs after the gear pins incident then what opinion did the pilots have of you.
Is this the reason why you are so anti LAME?
VTM
The Reverend
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VTM, RTFQ! As they used to say in the multy choice answer exams. I am still holding a valid LAME license and the only thing I ever missed during a walkaround in 33 years of flying was the unfortunate incident of the pins minus streamers, which would not have been missed if they had the streamers on them. By the way, the Captain missed them also. So according to you, it's OK for the Belgian licensed departure engineer to also miss the pins but confirm that they were removed after engine start. It is also OK for a licensed repair facility to certify the removal of the maintenace pins after taxi to the ramp but it is not acceptable for me to make a mistake? But of course, they were LAMEs and LAMEs never make mistakes! Right? What do Pilots and my fellow Flight Engineers think of me, you ask? There by the grace of God go I, was the most frequent comment. I am not anti LAME but sure as hell, I double checked everything after this incident, especially in Brussels.