Preflight Checks, Have Your Say!!
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Socks - Thanks for your words of support.
AN LAME - I hope the ALAEA are working behind the scenes. The airline are working in our face and slowly spreading the propoganda through the ranks and convincing us that our time is limited. They are throwing a lot of s**t and some of it is sticking. Why doesn't our union do something to counter the propoganda? Maybe they should go overseas and survey the other airlines to see what the setup is. Then produce a report and send it to every member showing that these changes haven't happened elsewhere as we are getting told. Manual changes have never been a problem to the airline in the past and I will not pin my hopes on them getting rejected. Everytime I look at a manual it has had changes.
AN LAME - I hope the ALAEA are working behind the scenes. The airline are working in our face and slowly spreading the propoganda through the ranks and convincing us that our time is limited. They are throwing a lot of s**t and some of it is sticking. Why doesn't our union do something to counter the propoganda? Maybe they should go overseas and survey the other airlines to see what the setup is. Then produce a report and send it to every member showing that these changes haven't happened elsewhere as we are getting told. Manual changes have never been a problem to the airline in the past and I will not pin my hopes on them getting rejected. Everytime I look at a manual it has had changes.
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Socks,
Thankyou for asking.
My original post was based on a response to AN LAME and his suggestion that the ALAEA was keeping their action close to their chest and not chest thumping and postulating like other unions.
In this response I referred to the action taken by the ALAEA, some 18 months ago when Virgin attempted to remove the Engineer from the Tarmac. This was done partly by a campaign, specifically against the Airline through the media. Highlighting breaches and oversights by some pilots in the their new responsibilities. CASA at the time carried out secret surveillances of pilots doing pre-flights, or NOT doing pre-flights and the media exposure, was counter productive to Virgins plan. So they made an agreement with the ALAEA, which caused the ALAEA to back off. You may recall some of the Bill Boards around at the time
“ 100% LAME 100% SAFE”
and
“ Would you get on this Aircraft with out having a Safety Check”
My reason for withdrawing my comments, were that comments made about AN-LAME could have been taken the wrong way, and for that I apologise.
Thankyou for asking.
My original post was based on a response to AN LAME and his suggestion that the ALAEA was keeping their action close to their chest and not chest thumping and postulating like other unions.
In this response I referred to the action taken by the ALAEA, some 18 months ago when Virgin attempted to remove the Engineer from the Tarmac. This was done partly by a campaign, specifically against the Airline through the media. Highlighting breaches and oversights by some pilots in the their new responsibilities. CASA at the time carried out secret surveillances of pilots doing pre-flights, or NOT doing pre-flights and the media exposure, was counter productive to Virgins plan. So they made an agreement with the ALAEA, which caused the ALAEA to back off. You may recall some of the Bill Boards around at the time
“ 100% LAME 100% SAFE”
and
“ Would you get on this Aircraft with out having a Safety Check”
My reason for withdrawing my comments, were that comments made about AN-LAME could have been taken the wrong way, and for that I apologise.
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Thanks for the info, I was interested to here if any one had put some form of pressure on you.
Of course no body believes everything they read on these forums but behind every story there is an element of truth.
Good Luck
Of course no body believes everything they read on these forums but behind every story there is an element of truth.
Good Luck
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Gentlemen, There is also another aspect which is sadly overlooked/ignored by both union and company. If these changes go ahead alot of engineers are headed for a life of PERMANENT night shift, unhealthy and bad for family life. I know of many young LAME's who now in this environment are considering career changes. Young enough to still be employable in a more stable industry( even if money is not as good). This, however, leaves a void of experience to come through the ranks, I am not suggesting that we will have an even bigger shortage of LAME's than we do now but those who are now coming through with just the amount of experience needed to become good LINE engineers. Will we see a return of the 81-82 years when engineers laid off in droves and companies hiring motor mechanics and the like to fill the void as arms and legs - I hope not.
Cheers
Cheers
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Bruce , welcome to the forum, I was all ready to remove this discussion thread as it had gone quiet. I feel it is something that our collegues from the pointy end wish would go away, but thank you for reviving it one more time.
You are correct in your assessment that there will be a shortage of Engineers in the future, but the shortage want be in the number of Engineers it will be in the quality of Engineers. We are about to see an unprecedented number of engineers retiring, over the next 5 years. In my workplace there are around 50% over 55 and that is alot of experience playing golf and not working on aircraft. By removing the LAME from the tarmac a valuable training tool is lost and the new inexperienced lame will miss out on the wisdom that these men have.
You might ask how is this wisdom lost?
I feel a good deal of my training over the years was from these gentlemen and their experiences over their career, when discussed and talked about have been invaluable in making me a better engineer. With the removal of engineers from tarmac duties these newer engineers will be working in different enviroments. The older engineers, closer to retirement, are more likely to stay around the tarmac operation( whats left of it) but the youth will not be there to train.
Pilots should be able to relate to this thought, you can train a pilot to fly in a class room and simulator, but the stories and experience gained from talking to a captain sitting in the left hand seat for two or three hours is invaluable.
Once upon a time this was the only way we learnt, our anscestors would tell stories around the fire, and we evolved into what we are today.
Unfortunately this is something that can't be measured, you can't see it and you can't feel it, so the bean counters would discount any notion that it has a value.
You are correct in your assessment that there will be a shortage of Engineers in the future, but the shortage want be in the number of Engineers it will be in the quality of Engineers. We are about to see an unprecedented number of engineers retiring, over the next 5 years. In my workplace there are around 50% over 55 and that is alot of experience playing golf and not working on aircraft. By removing the LAME from the tarmac a valuable training tool is lost and the new inexperienced lame will miss out on the wisdom that these men have.
You might ask how is this wisdom lost?
I feel a good deal of my training over the years was from these gentlemen and their experiences over their career, when discussed and talked about have been invaluable in making me a better engineer. With the removal of engineers from tarmac duties these newer engineers will be working in different enviroments. The older engineers, closer to retirement, are more likely to stay around the tarmac operation( whats left of it) but the youth will not be there to train.
Pilots should be able to relate to this thought, you can train a pilot to fly in a class room and simulator, but the stories and experience gained from talking to a captain sitting in the left hand seat for two or three hours is invaluable.
Once upon a time this was the only way we learnt, our anscestors would tell stories around the fire, and we evolved into what we are today.
Unfortunately this is something that can't be measured, you can't see it and you can't feel it, so the bean counters would discount any notion that it has a value.
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Sorry to give rebirth to an old issue but some new developments that may inspire comment. This has been taken from an article is the ALAEA bi monthly news letter.
"Jetstar Safety Alert
ALAEA members are being urged to report any flight, anywhere in the country, that takes off without a proper safety inspection. Similarly, they are being requested to provide information on aircraft that take to the skies with defects that would have been obvious to a trained engineering eye. The requests were issued last week by the ALAEA Federal Executive which warned of the “very real prospect” that Jetstar might attempt to introduce a
“LAME-less” tarmac. The Executive’s concern was prompted by the airline, currently being extended into Jetstar, already running a regional operation that attempts to avoid LAME transit checks. The ALAEA peak body has labelled the possibility of Jetstar going down that track “a very real threat to public safety”. Federal Secretary David Kemp said the ALAEA is relying on LAMEs throughout Australia being its eyes and ears on this vital safety issue. Anyone with any information should contact the union office on 02 9554 9399 or email to [email protected]"
"Jetstar Safety Alert
ALAEA members are being urged to report any flight, anywhere in the country, that takes off without a proper safety inspection. Similarly, they are being requested to provide information on aircraft that take to the skies with defects that would have been obvious to a trained engineering eye. The requests were issued last week by the ALAEA Federal Executive which warned of the “very real prospect” that Jetstar might attempt to introduce a
“LAME-less” tarmac. The Executive’s concern was prompted by the airline, currently being extended into Jetstar, already running a regional operation that attempts to avoid LAME transit checks. The ALAEA peak body has labelled the possibility of Jetstar going down that track “a very real threat to public safety”. Federal Secretary David Kemp said the ALAEA is relying on LAMEs throughout Australia being its eyes and ears on this vital safety issue. Anyone with any information should contact the union office on 02 9554 9399 or email to [email protected]"
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I said this would become a major issue many months ago, well hold onto your hats people this will blow the airlines out of the water before its finished.
____________________________________________________
For those that did not read last Fridays Australian
Engineers to fight pilot flight checks
11 March 2004
AIRCRAFT engineers are to launch a public campaign highlighting safety concerns arising from competition between low-cost airlines and plans to allow Jetstar pilots to make pre-flight safety checks.
Anyone got the full article?
Seems that I have..
Engineers to fight pilot flight checks
By Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
March 11, 2004
AIRCRAFT engineers are to launch a public campaign highlighting safety concerns arising from competition between low-cost airlines and plans to allow Jetstar pilots to make pre-flight safety checks.
The engineers say they have been told by Jetstar the airline plans to limit pre-flight checks by licensed engineers to one at the start of each day, with pilots performing the rest.
A similar proposal by Virgin Blue last year sparked threats of industrial action before the airline reached an agreement that allowed engineers as well as pilots to inspect the carrier's planes at major airports.
Engineers confirmed yesterday they planned to campaign against the Jetstar plan, and called on the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to ensure competition between low-cost airlines did not lead to short cuts on safety.
The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association said its members were under pressure at Virgin Blue not to conduct the checks.
The engineers argue that pilots can easily miss problems that would be spotted by trained engineers.
But airlines say the pilot checks are common overseas and allowed under current laws and manufacturer guidelines.
ALAEA federal secretary David Kemp said the travelling public had every reason to be concerned about the Jetstar proposals.
"The manufacturers tell airlines what they want to hear when they're selling aeroplanes," Mr Kemp said. "But these aircraft are complex machines, and they do need to be inspected."
Qantas spokesman Michael Sharp said the Jetstar procedures had been approved by CASA.
They had been used without a problem for four years at Impulse Airlines, which is forming the basis of the Jetstar operations.
"There will be no change for Jetstar – it's exactly what's happening now with the Impulse operations," Mr Sharp said.
____________________________________________________
Batten down the hatches it looks like we might get the LAMES to actually take some industrial action over this. They are renown for keeping their powder dry and only going into battle when they can win.
____________________________________________________
For those that did not read last Fridays Australian
Engineers to fight pilot flight checks
11 March 2004
AIRCRAFT engineers are to launch a public campaign highlighting safety concerns arising from competition between low-cost airlines and plans to allow Jetstar pilots to make pre-flight safety checks.
Anyone got the full article?
Seems that I have..
Engineers to fight pilot flight checks
By Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
March 11, 2004
AIRCRAFT engineers are to launch a public campaign highlighting safety concerns arising from competition between low-cost airlines and plans to allow Jetstar pilots to make pre-flight safety checks.
The engineers say they have been told by Jetstar the airline plans to limit pre-flight checks by licensed engineers to one at the start of each day, with pilots performing the rest.
A similar proposal by Virgin Blue last year sparked threats of industrial action before the airline reached an agreement that allowed engineers as well as pilots to inspect the carrier's planes at major airports.
Engineers confirmed yesterday they planned to campaign against the Jetstar plan, and called on the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to ensure competition between low-cost airlines did not lead to short cuts on safety.
The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association said its members were under pressure at Virgin Blue not to conduct the checks.
The engineers argue that pilots can easily miss problems that would be spotted by trained engineers.
But airlines say the pilot checks are common overseas and allowed under current laws and manufacturer guidelines.
ALAEA federal secretary David Kemp said the travelling public had every reason to be concerned about the Jetstar proposals.
"The manufacturers tell airlines what they want to hear when they're selling aeroplanes," Mr Kemp said. "But these aircraft are complex machines, and they do need to be inspected."
Qantas spokesman Michael Sharp said the Jetstar procedures had been approved by CASA.
They had been used without a problem for four years at Impulse Airlines, which is forming the basis of the Jetstar operations.
"There will be no change for Jetstar – it's exactly what's happening now with the Impulse operations," Mr Sharp said.
____________________________________________________
Batten down the hatches it looks like we might get the LAMES to actually take some industrial action over this. They are renown for keeping their powder dry and only going into battle when they can win.
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4 Dogs,
I was involved in an operation where the CASA FOI made it a requirement for the Capt to do a walkaround, this was in addition to the F/E who also did a walkaround and signed for the daily in the techlog.
The CASA guys I know, do not belong to the ALAEA and neither should they be!
VTM
I was involved in an operation where the CASA FOI made it a requirement for the Capt to do a walkaround, this was in addition to the F/E who also did a walkaround and signed for the daily in the techlog.
The CASA guys I know, do not belong to the ALAEA and neither should they be!
VTM
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This is my first post, but I would just like to add to this topic by saying that although as a pilot I have done many preflight inspections, I feel more confident knowing that an engineer is also having a good look. There should be no arguement that two sets of eyes are better than just the one, James Reason would support this arguement. And even though many of my collegues have not responded to this thread, I feel they would agree.
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Orville,
I have been watching the developements of your issue for a while now and have yet to see any fire and brimestone coming from your union have they left you high and dry. It appears there isn't any fight in you, you have put forward some good arguements in this thread, and I thought a movement was starting but from what I see ( or not see) at work Lame's are not sighted on the ramp, especially at Sydney Domestic. Are they in the same union as the rest of the country? If so what flag do they fly under?
I think you will be surprised where the support comes from once the action starts. Many of my collegues are interested also.
I have been watching the developements of your issue for a while now and have yet to see any fire and brimestone coming from your union have they left you high and dry. It appears there isn't any fight in you, you have put forward some good arguements in this thread, and I thought a movement was starting but from what I see ( or not see) at work Lame's are not sighted on the ramp, especially at Sydney Domestic. Are they in the same union as the rest of the country? If so what flag do they fly under?
I think you will be surprised where the support comes from once the action starts. Many of my collegues are interested also.
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socks
Sadly I think you are correct on one point. There is an air of apathy amongst a sizeable proportion of the LAME workforce and as usual, we will be our own worst enemies. However I don't agree with your notion that the union is not doing anything. Some things are best left said behind closed doors and not necessarily at the coalface. Having said that, this is a monumental battle which has been waging for some years now.
Sadly I think you are correct on one point. There is an air of apathy amongst a sizeable proportion of the LAME workforce and as usual, we will be our own worst enemies. However I don't agree with your notion that the union is not doing anything. Some things are best left said behind closed doors and not necessarily at the coalface. Having said that, this is a monumental battle which has been waging for some years now.
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orville
You misquote me - and I think you may be expressing some anger over AVV. I said that the union may not APPEAR to be doing anything but they ARE working in the backgorund which is a more responsible approach than running around telling the general public 'the sky is falling, the sky is falling...' along the lines of some other idiots in the industry (and before any one hooks into me on that, I'm NOT talking about the NAS debacle and sh!t for brains little dicky)
You misquote me - and I think you may be expressing some anger over AVV. I said that the union may not APPEAR to be doing anything but they ARE working in the backgorund which is a more responsible approach than running around telling the general public 'the sky is falling, the sky is falling...' along the lines of some other idiots in the industry (and before any one hooks into me on that, I'm NOT talking about the NAS debacle and sh!t for brains little dicky)
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AN LAME If all the action is happening behind closed doors then there was no misquote, appearances are 'no action'.
From where you are sitting I can see how it would look different, but there are 4000 members and many other interested affiliates that can't see through doors. The majority sit outside the chamber of silence.
From where you are sitting I can see how it would look different, but there are 4000 members and many other interested affiliates that can't see through doors. The majority sit outside the chamber of silence.
The Reverend
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During my tenure as a LAME at route stations, I never let a flight crew down. Transfered to flight ops. I picked up LAME oversights on several occasions doing my pre flight walk around checks. Brake pin wear indicator below limits, tyre wear below limits, cracked wheel hub and on one occasion out of maintenace, nosewheel scissors linkage apex pin missing and twice during my career, masking tape over the static ports after aircraft wash. The most memorable one that I still loose sleep over happened in Brussels where the incoming flight had a double reverse thrust failure. I was unfortunate enough to take over the subsequent flight where the A/C, a 747 200F was taxied to the ramp by the maintenace crew and I missed the main gear pins which were installed for the ramp taxi but without streamers on them. We took off with max TOW and couldn't retract the gear. Dumped 64,000Kgs of fuel and returned. As soon as the steps were driven in, I ran down to check for gear pins and found none. It wasn't till 30 mins. later that the Engineering Manager of the repair facility spoke to me and tried to make a deal. His LAMEs who certified the removal of the pins on their worksheet, quickly removed the evidence before I had a chance to find them; incidentally, the reverse thrust snag was still exactly the same. I have never trusted another LAME since.
Persona non grata
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Never ceases to amaze me here, how much people are willing to stab each other. 
I could quote numerous examples the other way round, but I wouldn't do that, not here in a public forum anyway.
I have worked all over the World with all sorts of different Pilots and Operators, and I have NEVER seen a situation where the Flight Crew don't also not only check that the pins are removed, but that they are stowed on board, usually actually counting them.
So in the situation you described, it was ultimately YOUR responsibility....
I could quote numerous examples the other way round, but I wouldn't do that, not here in a public forum anyway.
I have worked all over the World with all sorts of different Pilots and Operators, and I have NEVER seen a situation where the Flight Crew don't also not only check that the pins are removed, but that they are stowed on board, usually actually counting them.
So in the situation you described, it was ultimately YOUR responsibility....
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"I have never trusted another lame since."
Hotdog.
It is fortunate that we had two sets of eyes checking those particular aircraft you made reference to because there will be occasions where things can be overlooked. You however surprise me with your comment above, because if you are still a flyer then you must have trust in the work done by lames, because what you see on the outside is just a small slice of the work done by the lame's on your aircraft. And I am fairly confident that you don't carry out rigging checks, etc. prior to each flight.
Sleep well Hotdog, because while you sleep LAME's are, at this moment, doing all of those checks and services that make flying an aircraft a more attractive career to people like you.
Hotdog.
It is fortunate that we had two sets of eyes checking those particular aircraft you made reference to because there will be occasions where things can be overlooked. You however surprise me with your comment above, because if you are still a flyer then you must have trust in the work done by lames, because what you see on the outside is just a small slice of the work done by the lame's on your aircraft. And I am fairly confident that you don't carry out rigging checks, etc. prior to each flight.
Sleep well Hotdog, because while you sleep LAME's are, at this moment, doing all of those checks and services that make flying an aircraft a more attractive career to people like you.
Last edited by Orville; 28th Mar 2004 at 06:00.