Near miss over Launceston Virgin DJ
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
I believe the point that is being made, is that within a few weeks of the introduction of Class E airspace, it is ALREADY proving that it is LESS SAFE than the Class C it is replacing.
That being the case, Mr Munro, you - of all people - should be arguing AGAINST it, not trying to support it, with comments such as
, or resign from your position of PRESIDENT AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA.
To state on a public forum that the pilot of a light aircraft (presumably a PPL with only several hundred hours total, accumulated over several years) stated that contrary to TCAS, he considered there was "no risk of collision", does little to lend credibilty to you and the position you hold.
Had BOTH aircraft made - and maintained - visual contact, THEN one might confidently have stated that which you have.
That someone in your (public) position is willing to present this to the unknowledgable public is disturbing and DANGEROUS, imo.
That being the case, Mr Munro, you - of all people - should be arguing AGAINST it, not trying to support it, with comments such as
I have spoken to the pilot of the light aircraft involved. It was in level flight at 7,500ft and the pilot had the Virgin Jet in sight at all relevant times, and heard it on the radio....There was no risk of collision.
To state on a public forum that the pilot of a light aircraft (presumably a PPL with only several hundred hours total, accumulated over several years) stated that contrary to TCAS, he considered there was "no risk of collision", does little to lend credibilty to you and the position you hold.
Had BOTH aircraft made - and maintained - visual contact, THEN one might confidently have stated that which you have.
That someone in your (public) position is willing to present this to the unknowledgable public is disturbing and DANGEROUS, imo.
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HALFMOON.. I am honestly thrilled that you TCAS system works well...But(forgive me if I am wrong) are you saying that you are quite happy to rely on Eyes and TCAS only???
All pilots (I hope!) keep a look out. Not all pilot's have Tcas at their disposal. Transponders will malfunction.
All pilots (I hope!) keep a look out. Not all pilot's have Tcas at their disposal. Transponders will malfunction.
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Fri "The Australian"
Airline relaxed on flight scare
By John Stapleton
December 26, 2003
Tensions between air traffic controllers and the federal Government have deepened following allegations a Virgin Blue flight with 120 passengers on board came within 70m of colliding with a light aircraft near Launceston.
It is claimed that at about 1.30pm on Wednesday the Boeing 737 on descent to Launceston was forced to climb more than 300m to avoid a four-seater single-engine Tobago flying from Hobart after a proximity alert sounded in the cockpit.
Virgin Blue, Airservices Australia and the Australian Transport Safety Bureau are investigating the incident, but an airline spokeswoman, Amanda Bolger, said flight DJ 964 from Sydney landed "as per normal".
"We firmly believe that Australia has some of the safest skies in the world and we are confident our pilots reacted professionally as per our standard operating procedures," she said.
It follows an almost identical incident near Melbourne earlier this month and comes in the middle of open conflict between the Australian Air Traffic Control Association and Transport Minister John Anderson over a new air traffic control plan known as the National Airspace System.
The union claims a spate of incidents, including Wednesday's, can be linked to new rules that allow private aircraft to operate in commercial air traffic space.
It warned yesterday that Australia could expect more close calls between commercial and light aircraft, saying the new rules were "a joke".
The association issued a statement last Friday expressing concern over air safety in Tasmania, saying there was a great deal of confusion over the new rules.
"As we have been warning for months, Australia's skies are becoming a hit-or-miss affair," association president Ted Lang said.
"Commercial aircraft are taking evasive action. Collision alarms are sounding. Passengers are seeing other aircraft close by."
The union has urged airline passengers to fly only at night, when amateur and private pilots cannot operate.
A spokesman for Mr Anderson said the union's campaign was political "because they believe it will be of benefit to the Labor Party".
He said the union had claimed near misses between aircraft four times in the past month, at Canberra, Tamworth, Melbourne and now Launceston, "and with all previous incidents they have been proven 100 per cent wrong in everything they have said".
"The new system has been run very well so far," the spokesman said. "It is working as it's meant to work."
==========================================
Airline relaxed on flight scare
By John Stapleton
December 26, 2003
Tensions between air traffic controllers and the federal Government have deepened following allegations a Virgin Blue flight with 120 passengers on board came within 70m of colliding with a light aircraft near Launceston.
It is claimed that at about 1.30pm on Wednesday the Boeing 737 on descent to Launceston was forced to climb more than 300m to avoid a four-seater single-engine Tobago flying from Hobart after a proximity alert sounded in the cockpit.
Virgin Blue, Airservices Australia and the Australian Transport Safety Bureau are investigating the incident, but an airline spokeswoman, Amanda Bolger, said flight DJ 964 from Sydney landed "as per normal".
"We firmly believe that Australia has some of the safest skies in the world and we are confident our pilots reacted professionally as per our standard operating procedures," she said.
It follows an almost identical incident near Melbourne earlier this month and comes in the middle of open conflict between the Australian Air Traffic Control Association and Transport Minister John Anderson over a new air traffic control plan known as the National Airspace System.
The union claims a spate of incidents, including Wednesday's, can be linked to new rules that allow private aircraft to operate in commercial air traffic space.
It warned yesterday that Australia could expect more close calls between commercial and light aircraft, saying the new rules were "a joke".
The association issued a statement last Friday expressing concern over air safety in Tasmania, saying there was a great deal of confusion over the new rules.
"As we have been warning for months, Australia's skies are becoming a hit-or-miss affair," association president Ted Lang said.
"Commercial aircraft are taking evasive action. Collision alarms are sounding. Passengers are seeing other aircraft close by."
The union has urged airline passengers to fly only at night, when amateur and private pilots cannot operate.
A spokesman for Mr Anderson said the union's campaign was political "because they believe it will be of benefit to the Labor Party".
He said the union had claimed near misses between aircraft four times in the past month, at Canberra, Tamworth, Melbourne and now Launceston, "and with all previous incidents they have been proven 100 per cent wrong in everything they have said".
"The new system has been run very well so far," the spokesman said. "It is working as it's meant to work."
==========================================
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What a debacle. The analogy is the sunday caravaners making rules for truck drivers to follow. Sad to see the system has been hijacked by non professional pilots.
How many of these turkeys have actually operated Domestic jet services within Aus? Not many I would think.
I liked the guy on the Casa CD. As he flew over the class D airport in his chieftan he stated that he had put all his lights on for visibility reasons. The wheels were up!!. How the F@rk does that work?
Certainly a win for Joe weekender but a huge loss for all professionals.
How many of these turkeys have actually operated Domestic jet services within Aus? Not many I would think.
I liked the guy on the Casa CD. As he flew over the class D airport in his chieftan he stated that he had put all his lights on for visibility reasons. The wheels were up!!. How the F@rk does that work?
Certainly a win for Joe weekender but a huge loss for all professionals.
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>FarCu: RV8 Builder
>Pprune, PROFESSIONAL pilots rumour network. If you don't like the opinions of professional pilots, start an Amateur pilots rumour network.
Tell me FarCu, how many gold bars do you wear?
Don't assume that you capable of judging someone else's "professional" status. This thread is typical of the very unprofessional atttitude of a vocal group of Luddites who are being dragged kicking and screaming into 21st century worlds best practice.
Every time we try to move from the worlds most over-regulated and inflexible airspace management to something sensible the Chicken Littles start to scream SAFETY!
We stopped full VFR reporting - the world didn't end.
We got rid of RFFS at all but major cities - don't see any piles of burnt wrecks.
We tried Airspace 2000 - ahh, you got a win there with the help of the RAAF and a gulible media.
Its called Change Management people. Either you get with the process and work to make it better or you start a chicken farm. Every other industry in the country has been doing it for nearly 20 years, its about time we did the same in Aviation.
Service standards in this country are appaling. Do a full time line on the Melbourne "incident" and you find that it took ATC over 8 minutes to respond to a request for an airways clearence, then a further 6 minutes to issue an IFR clearence, and this to an aircraft doing 4 miles a minute! He was then vectored straight across the bows of the 737. If he had his clearence in a reasonable time (and I don't think 14 minutes is reasonable) there is no problem.
VFR pilots need to get there act togeather with using transponders - something that was discouraged at places like YSBK for years. A simple reminder sign at the holding point would probably do the trick.
ATC needs to improve its response to EVERYONE. Just because an aircraft is VFR dosen't make them a second class citizen. I would highly recommend that they get themselves over to somewhere like Chicago Central or Socal Approach to see how it's done on a large scale. See what their KPI's are and then show managment here whats needed to match them.
And everyone else needs to take my ol' dads advice - " Put the mind in gear before putting the mouth in motion."
BTW FarCu, I've done 10 years in Oz airfreight, two years at Red Rat and now work for myself. Oz and US licence's. Careful who you call amateur.
>Pprune, PROFESSIONAL pilots rumour network. If you don't like the opinions of professional pilots, start an Amateur pilots rumour network.
Tell me FarCu, how many gold bars do you wear?
Don't assume that you capable of judging someone else's "professional" status. This thread is typical of the very unprofessional atttitude of a vocal group of Luddites who are being dragged kicking and screaming into 21st century worlds best practice.
Every time we try to move from the worlds most over-regulated and inflexible airspace management to something sensible the Chicken Littles start to scream SAFETY!
We stopped full VFR reporting - the world didn't end.
We got rid of RFFS at all but major cities - don't see any piles of burnt wrecks.
We tried Airspace 2000 - ahh, you got a win there with the help of the RAAF and a gulible media.
Its called Change Management people. Either you get with the process and work to make it better or you start a chicken farm. Every other industry in the country has been doing it for nearly 20 years, its about time we did the same in Aviation.
Service standards in this country are appaling. Do a full time line on the Melbourne "incident" and you find that it took ATC over 8 minutes to respond to a request for an airways clearence, then a further 6 minutes to issue an IFR clearence, and this to an aircraft doing 4 miles a minute! He was then vectored straight across the bows of the 737. If he had his clearence in a reasonable time (and I don't think 14 minutes is reasonable) there is no problem.
VFR pilots need to get there act togeather with using transponders - something that was discouraged at places like YSBK for years. A simple reminder sign at the holding point would probably do the trick.
ATC needs to improve its response to EVERYONE. Just because an aircraft is VFR dosen't make them a second class citizen. I would highly recommend that they get themselves over to somewhere like Chicago Central or Socal Approach to see how it's done on a large scale. See what their KPI's are and then show managment here whats needed to match them.
And everyone else needs to take my ol' dads advice - " Put the mind in gear before putting the mouth in motion."
BTW FarCu, I've done 10 years in Oz airfreight, two years at Red Rat and now work for myself. Oz and US licence's. Careful who you call amateur.
RV8builder
I think you need to get your facts right before you quote Bull S**t like that. You obviously have no experience of flying outside Australia to make a stupid and defamatory comment like that. I suggest you go and fly you little S**t can in Asia, Europe the Middle East and the old Soviet block including Russia to see just how hard it is to fly for recreation and business. Your comment makes a joke of your cause. 
Every time we try to move from the worlds most over-regulated and inflexible airspace management to something sensible the Chicken Littles start to scream SAFETY!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Full marks for your well composed letter, DirectAnywhere - if more PROFESSIONAL pilots take the time to send a letter to the Government and the media, perhaps this dangerous, retrograde step has a chance of being ammended.
If a midair collision occurs, then Mr Andersen and his supporters should, imo, be held responsible for their culpable actions, which they have ploughed ahead with, IN SPITE OF the opposition of the professionals who use the airspace daily.
Previously Australia had the protection of the AFAP - the same organisation that pressured the government to instal radar at Coolangatta and Cairns - as the voice of ALL domestic professional pilots were represented through the Federation.
RV8builder sounds a little (or a lot) like Dick Smith, and his boast of, "We stopped full VFR reporting - the world didn't end.
We got rid of RFFS at all but major cities - don't see any piles of burnt wrecks.
We tried Airspace 2000 - ahh, you got a win there with the help of the RAAF and a gulible media." only seems to reinforce the idea that some people are intent on pulling apart, brick by brick, one of the safest airspace systems in the world - their criteria for knowing WHEN to stop, would seem to be once we have an increase of aviation DEATHS!
If a midair collision occurs, then Mr Andersen and his supporters should, imo, be held responsible for their culpable actions, which they have ploughed ahead with, IN SPITE OF the opposition of the professionals who use the airspace daily.
Previously Australia had the protection of the AFAP - the same organisation that pressured the government to instal radar at Coolangatta and Cairns - as the voice of ALL domestic professional pilots were represented through the Federation.
RV8builder sounds a little (or a lot) like Dick Smith, and his boast of, "We stopped full VFR reporting - the world didn't end.
We got rid of RFFS at all but major cities - don't see any piles of burnt wrecks.
We tried Airspace 2000 - ahh, you got a win there with the help of the RAAF and a gulible media." only seems to reinforce the idea that some people are intent on pulling apart, brick by brick, one of the safest airspace systems in the world - their criteria for knowing WHEN to stop, would seem to be once we have an increase of aviation DEATHS!
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Here here Kaptain M and this has also ripped apart the aviation community.
Ask which people were implicated in all of the changes since 89 and the same old village idiots keep cropping up. It is these same village idiots that have reduced the service to VFR and reduced VFR to second-class citizens, RV8, and it is the PRO-SAFETY lobby that would prefer to provide (and in the case of many controllers) continue to provide VFR with that same serviceas IFR and do not distinguish the value of human life to what category or class of operations that happens to be on the FPL - despite legislation. As a pilot and controller I will prefer to be separated and provided with full service whilst under ATC control - I'm not good enough to see and be seen and unless I were flying NOE my head cannot be guranteed to be looking outside the cockpit 100% of the time and especially not that 3 to 5 seconds from visual capture to reaction to miss!!!!!
Some of the people on this forum should realise that the enemy is within the group they support not with those that are trying to protect them!
Ask which people were implicated in all of the changes since 89 and the same old village idiots keep cropping up. It is these same village idiots that have reduced the service to VFR and reduced VFR to second-class citizens, RV8, and it is the PRO-SAFETY lobby that would prefer to provide (and in the case of many controllers) continue to provide VFR with that same serviceas IFR and do not distinguish the value of human life to what category or class of operations that happens to be on the FPL - despite legislation. As a pilot and controller I will prefer to be separated and provided with full service whilst under ATC control - I'm not good enough to see and be seen and unless I were flying NOE my head cannot be guranteed to be looking outside the cockpit 100% of the time and especially not that 3 to 5 seconds from visual capture to reaction to miss!!!!!
Some of the people on this forum should realise that the enemy is within the group they support not with those that are trying to protect them!
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This repetitive whining rattle from low aptitude ATC controllers and sheltered B grade airline pilots is becoming a little more than tiresome and nauseating...
Actually, I think you would be laughed out of the country if you tried to pull an Ozzie over there..
The simplistic Aussie mindset that a jet airliner has some complicated "aura" is astonishing. There is nothing in 250 vs 180 knots below 10000'. And how many GA airplanes are there on the Oz register pressurised or with O2 that fly VFR over 10000' on a regular basis? Friggin bone please!!
My original suspicions are proving correct: these NAS cry babies are:
A. whining because it makes them feel good
B. afraid of world's most efficient NAS type system
C. anti-US
D. ignorant
E. all of the above
If these Chicken Littles are so concerned about public transport safety, they might instead direct some of their energy attempting to fix the apalling state of the Australian road system where the equivalent of a B737 full load perishes each month..
Obviously this must NOT be the same E airspace they encounter in the US
The simplistic Aussie mindset that a jet airliner has some complicated "aura" is astonishing. There is nothing in 250 vs 180 knots below 10000'. And how many GA airplanes are there on the Oz register pressurised or with O2 that fly VFR over 10000' on a regular basis? Friggin bone please!! My original suspicions are proving correct: these NAS cry babies are:A. whining because it makes them feel good
B. afraid of world's most efficient NAS type system
C. anti-US
D. ignorant
E. all of the above
If these Chicken Littles are so concerned about public transport safety, they might instead direct some of their energy attempting to fix the apalling state of the Australian road system where the equivalent of a B737 full load perishes each month..
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Well Winstun, what do you expect from a bunch of Ludddites who immediately switch to playing the man, not the ball as soon as the facts don't suit them.
Maybe one day they will learn the difference between air traffic control and air traffic traffic SERVICE, as anyone who has flown in the real world would have noticed.
Until there is a major mindset adjustment they will remain 1970's style public servants, only too ready to give you 10 reasons why they can't do something, rather than the typical nothing-is-a-problem-lets-work-it-out attitude of the typical American ATC.
Unfortunately until then we have to put up with the fable that our over-regulated system is the "safest in the world" (its not, do an apples-apples comparison with the US, Canada and NZ - we come off a poor third).
Heaven help you guys when ADS-B comes in, but at least that will be another excuse to run arround doging bits of sky.
Maybe one day they will learn the difference between air traffic control and air traffic traffic SERVICE, as anyone who has flown in the real world would have noticed.
Until there is a major mindset adjustment they will remain 1970's style public servants, only too ready to give you 10 reasons why they can't do something, rather than the typical nothing-is-a-problem-lets-work-it-out attitude of the typical American ATC.
Unfortunately until then we have to put up with the fable that our over-regulated system is the "safest in the world" (its not, do an apples-apples comparison with the US, Canada and NZ - we come off a poor third).
Heaven help you guys when ADS-B comes in, but at least that will be another excuse to run arround doging bits of sky.
RV8builder
You seem to be putting us all in the same basket son. I personally couldn’t give a rats what Civil Air, as a Union body have to say even though they have the same concerns as I do about NAS. As a professional airline pilot, former GA chief pilot, CFI and ATO, I have a very big problem with NAS as is stands in Australia at the moment. You sir are meddling in something you obviously have no idea what you are talking about and this is what has me and others in this industry very worried. You seem to fail to grasp the limitation of TCAS and mode C transponders especially with regard to GA transponders which are notorious for being out by a couple of hundred feet. Don’t try and tell me that this is rare as I can assure you from previous experience it isn’t, even in IFR aircraft. As a point to note, TCAS warnings in the Airbus A340/330 are in the emergency section of the QRH and FCOM for a very good reason. It is an emergency maneuver, which will probably result in injury to pax and crew not strapped in. You also seem to fail to grasp the limitations of see and avoid from a jet doing 250 kts +. While we will always do our best to try and see traffic, it is usually impossible to see, especially against an urban background. Finally you seem to think that Australia’s airspace system is one of the most over regulated systems in the world. As I have told you before, you need to look around you before you make such a stupid comment like that. Go and try and flying your RV8 in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, China, Japan, India, Russia, former Soviet block countries, the Middle East and Europe and you will see what I mean. Your stupid and ill-informed comments are starting to p**s me off.
You seem to be putting us all in the same basket son. I personally couldn’t give a rats what Civil Air, as a Union body have to say even though they have the same concerns as I do about NAS. As a professional airline pilot, former GA chief pilot, CFI and ATO, I have a very big problem with NAS as is stands in Australia at the moment. You sir are meddling in something you obviously have no idea what you are talking about and this is what has me and others in this industry very worried. You seem to fail to grasp the limitation of TCAS and mode C transponders especially with regard to GA transponders which are notorious for being out by a couple of hundred feet. Don’t try and tell me that this is rare as I can assure you from previous experience it isn’t, even in IFR aircraft. As a point to note, TCAS warnings in the Airbus A340/330 are in the emergency section of the QRH and FCOM for a very good reason. It is an emergency maneuver, which will probably result in injury to pax and crew not strapped in. You also seem to fail to grasp the limitations of see and avoid from a jet doing 250 kts +. While we will always do our best to try and see traffic, it is usually impossible to see, especially against an urban background. Finally you seem to think that Australia’s airspace system is one of the most over regulated systems in the world. As I have told you before, you need to look around you before you make such a stupid comment like that. Go and try and flying your RV8 in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, China, Japan, India, Russia, former Soviet block countries, the Middle East and Europe and you will see what I mean. Your stupid and ill-informed comments are starting to p**s me off.
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To all
just a question, are aust ATC considered unhelpfull less obliging than others around the world. As a controller for some 13 years i have always prided myself on trying to give every pilot what they require as soon as possible and as far as the rules allow. In 13 years i cant remember ever having knocked back a clearance request from a VFR a-c, and i try to progress an A-C's flight with as little disruption as possible. To winstun and rv8, could you give me an example of something that has happened to you that gives you that impression about ATC. I am interested in your answer.
just a question, are aust ATC considered unhelpfull less obliging than others around the world. As a controller for some 13 years i have always prided myself on trying to give every pilot what they require as soon as possible and as far as the rules allow. In 13 years i cant remember ever having knocked back a clearance request from a VFR a-c, and i try to progress an A-C's flight with as little disruption as possible. To winstun and rv8, could you give me an example of something that has happened to you that gives you that impression about ATC. I am interested in your answer.
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As a professional airline pilot, former GA chief pilot, CFI and ATO, ...
...ooohh my hero! a jet doing 250 kts .. ..not rocket science, maybe it is to you...the fact that over ten thousand bizjets blast around the US daily, most without TCAS, without hitting anything.. 404, easy but not very helpful to make irrelevant comparisons. Kinda like big noting Australia's airplane and submarine manufacturing capabilities (Nomad and Collins 
) with that of say, Haiti..
capitan, we appreciate your attitude, but the problem is in the overall relative meanings of...trying...require...soon.... Go visit the ATC centers in the US and all will be revealed. 
...ooohh my hero! a jet doing 250 kts .. ..not rocket science, maybe it is to you...the fact that over ten thousand bizjets blast around the US daily, most without TCAS, without hitting anything.. 404, easy but not very helpful to make irrelevant comparisons. Kinda like big noting Australia's airplane and submarine manufacturing capabilities (Nomad and Collins ) with that of say, Haiti..
As a controller for some 13 years i have always prided myself on trying to give every pilot what they require as soon as possible and as far as the rules allow.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Winstun's quals? Winstun TVI....The Village Idiot.
If you don't have something sensible to add to the discusssion, TVI - and you don't - why get involved with us professional pilots? Does it give you a hard on?
If you don't have something sensible to add to the discusssion, TVI - and you don't - why get involved with us professional pilots? Does it give you a hard on?
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hey guys ..
don't let yourselves come down to the level of Winstun and Rvthingee .. I too thought it was Tricky doing his wind up thing, however he can't lay claim to having flown anything professionally, neither can Boyd ..
let's get back to the rational debate/discussion without their detracting you ...
This NAS thing .. is it only causing drama's on the eastern seaboard or are drama's occuring in/around ADL, DRW and PER too?
don't let yourselves come down to the level of Winstun and Rvthingee .. I too thought it was Tricky doing his wind up thing, however he can't lay claim to having flown anything professionally, neither can Boyd ..
let's get back to the rational debate/discussion without their detracting you ...
This NAS thing .. is it only causing drama's on the eastern seaboard or are drama's occuring in/around ADL, DRW and PER too?
Last edited by The Voice; 27th Dec 2003 at 17:05.