Ansett - A Current Affair
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Wirraway and others may be surprised to hear there are still approx 250 staff in the engineering/maintenance department in Melbourne.
These staff are 'maintaining' the remaining fleet and parting out the B767-200 VH-RME.
These staff are 'maintaining' the remaining fleet and parting out the B767-200 VH-RME.
Evertonian
TNO. Nice to see you posting again.
Sadly, with any voluntary poll, it all depends on who wants to call in.
Just like Australian Idol, if you are friends with or have something to do with one of the contestants, you'll vote your heart out. This is probably the case with this poll. Many staff & their many friends would have called in, I imagine, which would put such a slant on the voting. Of course, there is no way of confirming this, as it has no way of measuring the voters demographic.
Admittedly, it was a nice set of numbers, but I'd rather have seen this result from a poll of politicians!
Sadly, with any voluntary poll, it all depends on who wants to call in.
Just like Australian Idol, if you are friends with or have something to do with one of the contestants, you'll vote your heart out. This is probably the case with this poll. Many staff & their many friends would have called in, I imagine, which would put such a slant on the voting. Of course, there is no way of confirming this, as it has no way of measuring the voters demographic.
Admittedly, it was a nice set of numbers, but I'd rather have seen this result from a poll of politicians!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"Wirraway and others may be surprised to hear there are still approx 250 staff in the engineering/maintenance department in Melbourne."
I was also told that the 737 Fleet manager purportedly said that he can still see himself on the payroll at what used to be Ansett for a very, very long time.
TNO, " I never wished the Company any harm nor brought it to the state it was in at the end." You certainly did help to put it where it is (and you where you are now) by training the *****.
Decisive action by other staff would have pulled Hawke, Abeles & Co back into line, and have brought some accountability and honesty back.
Too late to sob over it now though.
I was also told that the 737 Fleet manager purportedly said that he can still see himself on the payroll at what used to be Ansett for a very, very long time.
TNO, " I never wished the Company any harm nor brought it to the state it was in at the end." You certainly did help to put it where it is (and you where you are now) by training the *****.
Decisive action by other staff would have pulled Hawke, Abeles & Co back into line, and have brought some accountability and honesty back.
Too late to sob over it now though.
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You once again show your selective memory ability when it suits you owl...
and totally miss the point again!
why do I bother?
But then again, for someone who completely embraced the blow ins,the opportunists and foreign imports, why am I not surprised!
and totally miss the point again!
why do I bother?
But then again, for someone who completely embraced the blow ins,the opportunists and foreign imports, why am I not surprised!
Join Date: Feb 2001
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The pond life is surfacing again, I see. Welcome back, KaptinM, you can join amos2 in your mutual attempts to hijack another thread in the pursuit of justification for your collective greed 14 years ago!
I really don't give a rat's proverbial about your opinions of me and my colleagues, what I said to amos applies equally to you and any other '89-er who wishes to join.
".....and have brought some accountability and honesty back". I despair, Kap. I really do! Had it not been for the unadulterated greed of the collective '89-ers and their unsupportable claim, there would heve been no need to bring anyone back into line. Had your collective egos been tempered with a reasonable claim, the rest of us might have been a little more amenable in support of you, but you had to have your way, and sod the rest of the staff! Why is it that the "accountability and honesty" applies only to others, Kap, and not the the antics of your representative body? The AFAP and its members must take full responsibility for the instigation of the dispute, and Blind Freddy could have seen how a 30% claim would be received. Didn't matter, though, did it? You had to try to have your "eroded status" restored to boost your egos again, and reinstate the image of the pilot in the eyes of the great unwashed. One more thing, "ambit" claim, my arse!!
Now, I have no doubt that will open the flood-gates of vitriol, so I'm off to have a beer with dinner and the family. I wish you ALL well, even Kap and amos, believe it or not!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
I really don't give a rat's proverbial about your opinions of me and my colleagues, what I said to amos applies equally to you and any other '89-er who wishes to join.
".....and have brought some accountability and honesty back". I despair, Kap. I really do! Had it not been for the unadulterated greed of the collective '89-ers and their unsupportable claim, there would heve been no need to bring anyone back into line. Had your collective egos been tempered with a reasonable claim, the rest of us might have been a little more amenable in support of you, but you had to have your way, and sod the rest of the staff! Why is it that the "accountability and honesty" applies only to others, Kap, and not the the antics of your representative body? The AFAP and its members must take full responsibility for the instigation of the dispute, and Blind Freddy could have seen how a 30% claim would be received. Didn't matter, though, did it? You had to try to have your "eroded status" restored to boost your egos again, and reinstate the image of the pilot in the eyes of the great unwashed. One more thing, "ambit" claim, my arse!!
Now, I have no doubt that will open the flood-gates of vitriol, so I'm off to have a beer with dinner and the family. I wish you ALL well, even Kap and amos, believe it or not!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"your mutual attempts to hijack another thread.....it would seem to be, TNO that YOU have done a not too bad job all by yourself, in turning your last post into an '89fest, whilst decrying the right of reply to others.
" "ambit" claim, my arse!!" Yes, TNO an ambit claim, no different to ANY negotiation - whether it be buying a car, a house, applying for a new job, or negotiating renewals of existing employment.
It's a matter of fact, run-of-the-mill procedure.
So kiss your ass goodbye, if you can't understand the way in which employment renewals/reviews are conducted!
"I really don't give a rat's proverbial about your opinions of me and my colleagues." As a matter of fact, you DO.
I have no qualms in telling you that I didn't envy the position in which you were forcibly placed at the time.....lesser "men", such as the then RFM of BNE chose to "slip in the shower" and conveniently break his wrist, so that he was unavailable for flying duties at the time - simply because he didn't know which way the result would run, and he was feeding info (eg. who had signed up) to the AFAP, whilst remaining in the employ of Abeles.
However, the AFAP issued a pamphlet titled "Who will be next?" - indicating that if the pilots were picked off, the companies would follow through one by one, doing whatever they wanted.
Quite simply, AN management would then cherry pick the company - UNLESS the employees were willing to stand united.
They chose not to.
And the rest - as they say - is history. Including the jobs of some 17,000 other employees, your's included, TNO.
Undoubtedly, the length of time (some 8 months) that the pilots held out for (albeit an attempt to return to our original working conditions after approx. 1 month) was far in excess of what Hawke, Abeles (Oldmeadow), Strong, and Murdoch ever calculated, and is why Dixon of QF is now avoiding a direct confrontation with his pilots, as he tears QANTAS apart, brick by brick.
I fully appreciate your well though out posts, TNO - and respect you for them - in spite of some attempted cheap shots, eg. " You had to try to have your "eroded status" restored to boost your egos again, and reinstate the image of the pilot in the eyes of the great unwashed.", which do NOT accurately reflect the majority consenus of the then pilots, who were about as "unwashed" as everyone else - but rather professional envy.
We (pilots) are now/were then, ALL as much a part of the everyday average Aussie as you, or my mates who were loaders, check-in staff, crewing officers, ever were.
In fact, the BIGGEST problem for many pilots is trying to get over the perceived (by others) "complex" we have.
By the same token, our job requires us to have SOME token of responsibility and leadership, simply because of the dire consequences any oversights on our part have, that DIRECTLY affect our career paths.
As a new recruit to VB (one of the "Filthy Four"), but a long term Ansett employee cited, "Remember the four "F's". It is the Captain's job to be Fair, Firm, and Friendly - but never Familiar."
Hence, sometimes the apparent aloofness, or distancing. Not snobbery - simply protecting one's arse.
Which is where we started....and seems a good place to finish right now!
Kindest regards,
K.M.
" "ambit" claim, my arse!!" Yes, TNO an ambit claim, no different to ANY negotiation - whether it be buying a car, a house, applying for a new job, or negotiating renewals of existing employment.
It's a matter of fact, run-of-the-mill procedure.
So kiss your ass goodbye, if you can't understand the way in which employment renewals/reviews are conducted!
"I really don't give a rat's proverbial about your opinions of me and my colleagues." As a matter of fact, you DO.
I have no qualms in telling you that I didn't envy the position in which you were forcibly placed at the time.....lesser "men", such as the then RFM of BNE chose to "slip in the shower" and conveniently break his wrist, so that he was unavailable for flying duties at the time - simply because he didn't know which way the result would run, and he was feeding info (eg. who had signed up) to the AFAP, whilst remaining in the employ of Abeles.
However, the AFAP issued a pamphlet titled "Who will be next?" - indicating that if the pilots were picked off, the companies would follow through one by one, doing whatever they wanted.
Quite simply, AN management would then cherry pick the company - UNLESS the employees were willing to stand united.
They chose not to.
And the rest - as they say - is history. Including the jobs of some 17,000 other employees, your's included, TNO.
Undoubtedly, the length of time (some 8 months) that the pilots held out for (albeit an attempt to return to our original working conditions after approx. 1 month) was far in excess of what Hawke, Abeles (Oldmeadow), Strong, and Murdoch ever calculated, and is why Dixon of QF is now avoiding a direct confrontation with his pilots, as he tears QANTAS apart, brick by brick.
I fully appreciate your well though out posts, TNO - and respect you for them - in spite of some attempted cheap shots, eg. " You had to try to have your "eroded status" restored to boost your egos again, and reinstate the image of the pilot in the eyes of the great unwashed.", which do NOT accurately reflect the majority consenus of the then pilots, who were about as "unwashed" as everyone else - but rather professional envy.
We (pilots) are now/were then, ALL as much a part of the everyday average Aussie as you, or my mates who were loaders, check-in staff, crewing officers, ever were.
In fact, the BIGGEST problem for many pilots is trying to get over the perceived (by others) "complex" we have.
By the same token, our job requires us to have SOME token of responsibility and leadership, simply because of the dire consequences any oversights on our part have, that DIRECTLY affect our career paths.
As a new recruit to VB (one of the "Filthy Four"), but a long term Ansett employee cited, "Remember the four "F's". It is the Captain's job to be Fair, Firm, and Friendly - but never Familiar."
Hence, sometimes the apparent aloofness, or distancing. Not snobbery - simply protecting one's arse.
Which is where we started....and seems a good place to finish right now!
Kindest regards,
K.M.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
A well percieved Miss Conception, Buster!!
In fact, I reckon the "strike rate" of the ground staff far exceeds that (perceived) of the flight crew. Ridgey Didge!!
Every time you looked sideways at a hostie, she was ALWAYS head-over-heels in love with a loader/check-in staff/crewing guy (gal...in some cases
)!!
Invariably on overnights, the cabin crew were "organised" - and the cockpit crew drank cheap red wine to make the KY feel slipperier!! because of the early morning pick-up!!
Wimmen!!! *****if ya do..****if ya don't!!
In fact, I reckon the "strike rate" of the ground staff far exceeds that (perceived) of the flight crew. Ridgey Didge!!
Every time you looked sideways at a hostie, she was ALWAYS head-over-heels in love with a loader/check-in staff/crewing guy (gal...in some cases
)!!Invariably on overnights, the cabin crew were "organised" - and the cockpit crew drank cheap red wine to make the KY feel slipperier!!
because of the early morning pick-up!!Wimmen!!! *****if ya do..****if ya don't!!
Evertonian
I can most definately assure you that the strike rate of this check-in/Loco/Ops/Crewing guy in regard to FA's was absolute zero!
Should've tried my luck with the girls I guess!!!!........
Should've tried my luck with the girls I guess!!!!........
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A couple of points, amos - my take on your argument that I "embraced the blow-ins, etc., etc.", is that I was not embracing them, nor you nor anyone else. I was doing what I was paid to do, I had no argument with AN management then, unlike my stand on the pilots' position. I had NO reason to withdraw my labour, certainly not in support of what appeared to me to be an unwarranted and unsupportable claim, so I carried on at work. To this day, I believe I was doing right by my employer, although I don't expect agreement from any '89-er.
In respect of my need for a lie down, perhaps if you were possessed of the ability to express yourseld in the manner of KapM, I'd be less likely to fly off the handle. I can disagree and argue the point with him till the cows come home without losing my cool, but you have always had the ability to set my teeth on edge with your carping, sniping ways. Now, piss off and leave me alone.
KaptinM - this thread originated in a discussion about a TV program referring to AN's demise. My responses nowhere even mentioned '89, I was replying to Torres when amos reared his head with more carping about the dispute.
You can hide behind the term Ambit Claim as much as you want, old son, but I have the vivid recollection of having a coffee in the Sim Centre with an AFAP member who told me, in no uncertain terms, that there was nothing ambit about any of the elements of the claim and that, if any item was rejected, then the AFAP would bring AN to it's knees. He then went on to say that, if we (ground-staff) supported the AFAP in their claim, we would, in turn, be supported by them in any subsequent 30% claim for ourselves. When I asked him how he thought the company could afford such a scenario, I was told, "that's their bloody problem, mate, not ours"! End of any prospect of support from me.
I don't know what prompted your comment about the RFM of BNE, any more than I know him, but I feel that your comment merely ascribes to him motives which are coloured by your stance rather than reality, so I'll refrain from comment.
I've re-read my comment about "egos", and agree that you may have a point about a cheap shot. I apologise unreservedly, and hope your feelings weren't excessively bruised. However, please disabuse yourself of the notion that my comments were motivated by "professional envy". I've had this thrown at me, over the years, and I refute any such accusation. My working life in aviation has been a widely varied one and, with a few rare occasions, I do not regret never attempting to become a pilot. It seems to be the fall-back position of too many people that, whenever their image is denigrated in any way, it can only be from envy of a "wannabee". I sometimes think I'd like to have tried, but I had too many other interests to have the drive and determination to make the serious attempt. It's like playing golf - a great game, but requiring too much time and application at one thing to be any real good at it. To be truthful, I miss the days of my Mountain Rescue duties with the RAF far more than any missed opportunity to fly full-time. I did, however, fly gliders on weekends, when not in the mountains, so my life hasn't been totally wasted! I was in Simulation from 1968 until AN's demise, and had a ball in that field as a Visual Systems specialist, in aircraft ranging from Phantoms, Harriers, Jaguars to the seven machines run by AN, and I had the time of my life. It may come as a surprise, KAP, but for some life does not begin and end behind the control column. For over forty years I've understood the responsibilities of Tech crew, and accept the reasoning behind the four Fs, but I also remember the odd arrogant, up-himslf, "steely-eyed killer" prat, some of whom exist in the civilian aviation world as well as the military.
Unlike amos, I look forward to a civilised joust with you and your like, Kap, but I'll have no more to say in this thread, I'd sooner see it return to the original.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
In respect of my need for a lie down, perhaps if you were possessed of the ability to express yourseld in the manner of KapM, I'd be less likely to fly off the handle. I can disagree and argue the point with him till the cows come home without losing my cool, but you have always had the ability to set my teeth on edge with your carping, sniping ways. Now, piss off and leave me alone.
KaptinM - this thread originated in a discussion about a TV program referring to AN's demise. My responses nowhere even mentioned '89, I was replying to Torres when amos reared his head with more carping about the dispute.
You can hide behind the term Ambit Claim as much as you want, old son, but I have the vivid recollection of having a coffee in the Sim Centre with an AFAP member who told me, in no uncertain terms, that there was nothing ambit about any of the elements of the claim and that, if any item was rejected, then the AFAP would bring AN to it's knees. He then went on to say that, if we (ground-staff) supported the AFAP in their claim, we would, in turn, be supported by them in any subsequent 30% claim for ourselves. When I asked him how he thought the company could afford such a scenario, I was told, "that's their bloody problem, mate, not ours"! End of any prospect of support from me.
I don't know what prompted your comment about the RFM of BNE, any more than I know him, but I feel that your comment merely ascribes to him motives which are coloured by your stance rather than reality, so I'll refrain from comment.
I've re-read my comment about "egos", and agree that you may have a point about a cheap shot. I apologise unreservedly, and hope your feelings weren't excessively bruised. However, please disabuse yourself of the notion that my comments were motivated by "professional envy". I've had this thrown at me, over the years, and I refute any such accusation. My working life in aviation has been a widely varied one and, with a few rare occasions, I do not regret never attempting to become a pilot. It seems to be the fall-back position of too many people that, whenever their image is denigrated in any way, it can only be from envy of a "wannabee". I sometimes think I'd like to have tried, but I had too many other interests to have the drive and determination to make the serious attempt. It's like playing golf - a great game, but requiring too much time and application at one thing to be any real good at it. To be truthful, I miss the days of my Mountain Rescue duties with the RAF far more than any missed opportunity to fly full-time. I did, however, fly gliders on weekends, when not in the mountains, so my life hasn't been totally wasted! I was in Simulation from 1968 until AN's demise, and had a ball in that field as a Visual Systems specialist, in aircraft ranging from Phantoms, Harriers, Jaguars to the seven machines run by AN, and I had the time of my life. It may come as a surprise, KAP, but for some life does not begin and end behind the control column. For over forty years I've understood the responsibilities of Tech crew, and accept the reasoning behind the four Fs, but I also remember the odd arrogant, up-himslf, "steely-eyed killer" prat, some of whom exist in the civilian aviation world as well as the military.
Unlike amos, I look forward to a civilised joust with you and your like, Kap, but I'll have no more to say in this thread, I'd sooner see it return to the original.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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Amos2,
Having known TNO for many many years I can assure you he has in no way lost it. In fact his recollections of what happened are still clear and very very consistent.
I endorse his comments regarding your sniping and carping ways.
Please take a long hard look at yourself so that in future your posts are constructive not destructive which also earns the ire of Woomera.
Thank you for your time
100_Above
Having known TNO for many many years I can assure you he has in no way lost it. In fact his recollections of what happened are still clear and very very consistent.
I endorse his comments regarding your sniping and carping ways.
Please take a long hard look at yourself so that in future your posts are constructive not destructive which also earns the ire of Woomera.
Thank you for your time
100_Above
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KM, a humorous response! Well done my boy. I agree though, the ground crew seemed to do a lot better than us.
When I was an Effo, I THOUGHT it was the captain who got the stray roots; whemn I got to be a captain, I KNEW it was the Effo!
As for KY, there are better lubes around....I''m told???
When I was an Effo, I THOUGHT it was the captain who got the stray roots; whemn I got to be a captain, I KNEW it was the Effo!
As for KY, there are better lubes around....I''m told???
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Looks like there maybe a follow up sometime this week,
http://www.vpmag.com/yssy/viewtopic....bda7185b24185b
http://www.vpmag.com/yssy/viewtopic....bda7185b24185b
