Avalon charging pilots for GPS approaches.
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Avalon charging pilots for GPS approaches.
Currently Avalon owners are charging light aircraft for the privilege of doing a GPS Arrival and /or GPS NPA. Three NPA's will cost you around $33 if your voice is recorded on the MBZ tape. No wonder some pilots resort to non-tranmission of MBZ radio procedures.
Sorting out the Avalon owners who are ripping off GA pilots in this regard should be a good test case for the new managing team of AOPA. GA Pilots calling AOPA? Are you out there somewhere?
Sorting out the Avalon owners who are ripping off GA pilots in this regard should be a good test case for the new managing team of AOPA. GA Pilots calling AOPA? Are you out there somewhere?
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Well the costs associated over years and years of research, development and investment in infrastructure to set up the GPS network need to be recouped.
Linfox can quite rightly charge to use their system.
It is theirs, isn't it?
Linfox can quite rightly charge to use their system.
It is theirs, isn't it?
I think you may need to check on who paid for the publication of the GPS approach. If Linfox paid for the approach to be published and tested I believe they have the right to charge for it. The costs to get an instrument approach published and tested is in the order of $20k or so. Not cheap.
If that is not the case then they should not charge for it.
Bevan..
If that is not the case then they should not charge for it.
Bevan..
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They should be taken to task over this otherwise it may set a precedent for other airport owners.
Surely AOPA must be able to obtain expert legal advice and in turn advise their members the result.
Gaunty?
Surely AOPA must be able to obtain expert legal advice and in turn advise their members the result.
Gaunty?
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It is my understanding that when the current owner of Avalon took over, that Air Services who had previously designed the GPS NPA, and who had paid all the associated costs, gave the charts and amendments to the owners free of charge. It would seem therefore that Avalon is charging for services they themselves got for free. I believe AOPA wrote letters on the subject to Avalon owners several months back but had no reply. Due to lack of interest from GA operators who use Avalon in jacking up over the charges (they just add it on to the cost of the flight), AOPA did not pursue the issue - understandably.
hold file.
While Linfox can probably claim to be a big company, they are not the US department of defence, who are the owners of the GPS network.
Charging for GPS approaches where the aircraft doesn't actually touch the runway is typical of big business thinking, but I would have thought that the charges are not actually legal and binding because I would have thought that the airspace above the airfield is NOT the property of the airport owner, merely the runway and tarmac.
The precedent that it would set if unsucessfully challenged would be enormous - I could charge $50 for each departure ex Brissie that flies over my house - they are flying a published SID (no different than a published GPS approach I would have thought) - I can see the registrations and can log them.
Now there is an idea!!
Anyone have AVcharges phone number?????
While Linfox can probably claim to be a big company, they are not the US department of defence, who are the owners of the GPS network.
Charging for GPS approaches where the aircraft doesn't actually touch the runway is typical of big business thinking, but I would have thought that the charges are not actually legal and binding because I would have thought that the airspace above the airfield is NOT the property of the airport owner, merely the runway and tarmac.
The precedent that it would set if unsucessfully challenged would be enormous - I could charge $50 for each departure ex Brissie that flies over my house - they are flying a published SID (no different than a published GPS approach I would have thought) - I can see the registrations and can log them.
Now there is an idea!!
Anyone have AVcharges phone number?????
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I used to be all for privitisation of government departments. I believed that the government should not control or compete in an arena where the private sector could operate, because it limited the rights and freedom of individuals through excessive governmental control, and government beaurocratic inefficiencies that ultimately cost the consumer far more than what private industry would ecause of competitive efficiency.
I now know otherwise. I have seen the privitisation of many industries, the first of which was third party insurance in New South Wales. It was intended to bring advantage to everyone through cheaper car insurance costs. Now there is no more expensive state in which to register ones car. This is but one example of privitisation failure. The airports are another.
I have learned that big business is no friend of anyone. As much as government operations are all about control through rule, big business is about control via economic necessity, and there is just no available objection to this type of control.
Can someone please challenge me by showing me a positive to privitisation??
I now know otherwise. I have seen the privitisation of many industries, the first of which was third party insurance in New South Wales. It was intended to bring advantage to everyone through cheaper car insurance costs. Now there is no more expensive state in which to register ones car. This is but one example of privitisation failure. The airports are another.
I have learned that big business is no friend of anyone. As much as government operations are all about control through rule, big business is about control via economic necessity, and there is just no available objection to this type of control.
Can someone please challenge me by showing me a positive to privitisation??
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What AOPA did
Hudson and Planned Root
Last year, on behalf of a member, I obtained legal advice and wrote to Avalon management.
Essentially that advice was.
1. Avalon don't own airspace, so charging for an approach without a landing is moot.
2. Avalon don't own the GPS. It is owned by the US DoD and licenced to operate in Australia by Aust DoD.
3. AOPA felt that pilots purchased the right to use the approach by purchasing the DAPS. The right to publish that DAP is an issue between Avalon and AsA.
So, if you feel you are being unfairly charged, challenge it!!!
In reality, they can't turn off the GPS, so they can only refuse you the right to use the facilities they own if they feel they are right.
What more will AOPA do. Well, we have ONE paying member so far identified as having an issue. Feel free to post on the AOPA forum and we will see how many members are interested. We don't have the resources to follow up issues for non-members. Sorry.
Regards
Andrew Kerans
Last year, on behalf of a member, I obtained legal advice and wrote to Avalon management.
Essentially that advice was.
1. Avalon don't own airspace, so charging for an approach without a landing is moot.
2. Avalon don't own the GPS. It is owned by the US DoD and licenced to operate in Australia by Aust DoD.
3. AOPA felt that pilots purchased the right to use the approach by purchasing the DAPS. The right to publish that DAP is an issue between Avalon and AsA.
So, if you feel you are being unfairly charged, challenge it!!!
In reality, they can't turn off the GPS, so they can only refuse you the right to use the facilities they own if they feel they are right.
What more will AOPA do. Well, we have ONE paying member so far identified as having an issue. Feel free to post on the AOPA forum and we will see how many members are interested. We don't have the resources to follow up issues for non-members. Sorry.
Regards
Andrew Kerans
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Does not sound very fair at all...
But there is always a way around it... Just don't do it...
I'm sure there are other GPS approaches around that you can use.
Now what about if you land? Are you charged for the approach and landing or just the landing?
Or set a precedent and refuse to pay the bill sure you may end up in court but??? Get a group together and see what happens.
Reminds me of the NT Gov trying to make the Katherine Gorge a restricted area that you had to pay to use???
But there is always a way around it... Just don't do it...
I'm sure there are other GPS approaches around that you can use.
Now what about if you land? Are you charged for the approach and landing or just the landing?
Or set a precedent and refuse to pay the bill sure you may end up in court but??? Get a group together and see what happens.
Reminds me of the NT Gov trying to make the Katherine Gorge a restricted area that you had to pay to use???
And the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park trying to charge for flying over the reef. Refused to pay it and there was nothing they could do about it. They didn't own the air space.
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Canberra Airport Limited tried to charge me a landing fee for an ILS without touching down. I asked them to provide me with documented evidence as to what height they bought the air as well when they bought the airport. I told them “I will stay above the air you own”. They dropped the charges. Does that set a precedent?
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Snarek,
Thank you for the reply. I am a member and do not recall seeing anything about the matter published in the magazine, if it was at all.
If not then it should have been conveyed to all somehow as that is what members and potential members like to see and read. That sort of thing gets people signed up.
Good on you for pursuing the matter - its appreciated.
Hi Altitude,
I do not agree with your view of just going elsewhere.
This is a cop out and serves only as a precedent for other airport owners to pull the same stunt. They need to be taken to task over these issues and shown that we as an industry will not tolerate the ever increasing amount of hands that are put out for unfair and unjustified charges.
Good question though in regards to whether one would be charged for the approach then a separate landing fee.
Thank you for the reply. I am a member and do not recall seeing anything about the matter published in the magazine, if it was at all.
If not then it should have been conveyed to all somehow as that is what members and potential members like to see and read. That sort of thing gets people signed up.
Good on you for pursuing the matter - its appreciated.
Hi Altitude,
I do not agree with your view of just going elsewhere.
This is a cop out and serves only as a precedent for other airport owners to pull the same stunt. They need to be taken to task over these issues and shown that we as an industry will not tolerate the ever increasing amount of hands that are put out for unfair and unjustified charges.
Good question though in regards to whether one would be charged for the approach then a separate landing fee.
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This was raised at some of the RAPACs some years back and the result was that the owner of an airport had NO rights to charge for use of uncontrolled airspace in the vicinity of an airport.
Provide a tower and other ATS services and it is a different matter.
As per the previous post, show us where the airport owner "owns" the airspace and under what authority or act?
Don't pay.
Provide a tower and other ATS services and it is a different matter.
As per the previous post, show us where the airport owner "owns" the airspace and under what authority or act?
Don't pay.
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Give it a break
Gee menen
Give the guys a break. They try, you say good things then you have a go. At lease AOPA tried.
I think the Katherine Gorge and GBRMPA debacles give you the clue. Don't pay. Also, ask AOPA for a copy of the letter, remind Avalon of it when they come after you.
They don't own the sky and cant charge you for using it!!!
Pat
Give the guys a break. They try, you say good things then you have a go. At lease AOPA tried.
I think the Katherine Gorge and GBRMPA debacles give you the clue. Don't pay. Also, ask AOPA for a copy of the letter, remind Avalon of it when they come after you.
They don't own the sky and cant charge you for using it!!!
Pat
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Show me the members
OK
I now have two members confirmed as affected, one identified, one not (PR???).
While I couldn't possibly tell you to 'not pay', I can note that not paying definitely worked for Katherine Gorge!
I don't know about GBRMPA, this is the first I have heard of a 'charge', was it a reef tax????
If we have enough members we could form an 'interest group' and discuss tactics.
E-mail me,
[email protected]
AK
I now have two members confirmed as affected, one identified, one not (PR???).
While I couldn't possibly tell you to 'not pay', I can note that not paying definitely worked for Katherine Gorge!
I don't know about GBRMPA, this is the first I have heard of a 'charge', was it a reef tax????
If we have enough members we could form an 'interest group' and discuss tactics.
E-mail me,
[email protected]
AK