DFS-Germany Direct Entry Atco-Info please
 

Hi All,
In flight international Dfs have placed an add looking for direct entry controllers with area or approach ratings. The jobs are advertised as permanent full time with a start date as soon as possible!

To any Dfs contollers out there or anyone else with solid information i have a number of questions. If for whatever reason you dont feel like posting in an open forum with your replies feel free to PM me.

1) Any idea of the experince required or is the bog standard 5 years they are all looking for?

2) Where are the area and approach centers located and what are the chances of being stationed in each one?

3) What are the medical requirements-class 2 or class 3?

4) Pay-What is the minimum and maximum a DFs controller earns?
-How many points on the pay scale and is there a career
progreesion?
- Average pay for a 10 year experienced area/app
-How is the pay structured-basic/bonus/overtime etc?

5) Annual leave entitlements-number of days per year/time in leiu for public holidays etc?

6) Duties and rosters-How many on/off days and night duties?

And finally-how is the industrial relations side of things? Are any newcomers going to land into a middle of union/management fight any time soon. How do the Dfs guys feel about the newcomers?

As you have guessed im interested! Can i thank you all in advance :D

Ock1f

Hi!

only time for a short answer at the moment!

1) No idea

2) Centers are in: Munich, Langen (near Frankfurt), Bremen, Karlsruhe
cannot tell you anything about chances

3) medical class 1 on eyes and ears

4) around 7800EURO gross salary for a new licensed ATCO; after 11years 8500EURO

5) annual leave just re-negotiated. presently 29days.
about 5-8 days extra for pub. holidays compensation

6) in general 5 days on, 3 days off. just in negotiation but you can calculate with this.

7) ?????????

Where are you from? Why do you want to leave for Germany?

Greetings from Munich

Hello mucc in munchen,
Thanks for the quick reply !
In response to your questions-my location at the moment is Ireland and the simple reason for wanting a move is a change for pastures new-pure and simple. There may a good few Irish looking into this as well as looking elsewhere too.

You sound slightly surprised that someone would want to move to Dfs- any reasons why?

Has the annual leave been negotiated to 29 days or is that likely to increase?

In Munich-nice place by the way-the 5 and 3 roster any chance of the start/finish time and any variations of.
Thanks again :D

Ock1f

Hi!

not surprised, just interested!

The annual leave is 29 days and it looks like it increases soon. I can't tell you to what figures, as we are still negotiating. Maybe more in 2 weeks on this, if there is a consent at the end of negotiations.

the roster: 5/3 ... you start 2 days early, 1 early or late, 2 late (or 1 late 1night). time at work 8hours (2 1/2 break/recreation) makes 5 1/2 at the board!

cu

What sort of tax could be expected ie. what would the net salary be? Is that incl all extras (not overtime- just things like shift penalty)? What would one expect to pay for rent on a flat, and on a house?
I think ock1f is asking re 7) Is there any negative sentiment about foreign controllers joining? Is there any industrial relations issue/fight with management?

Quote:

What sort of tax could be expected ie. what would the net salary be? Is that incl all extras (not overtime- just things like shift penalty)? What would one expect to pay for rent on a flat, and on a house?
I think ock1f is asking re 7) Is there any negative sentiment about foreign controllers joining? Is there any industrial relations issue/fight with management?



Well the tax depends on family situation. Wife and kids reduce your tax a bit, the 7800/8500 is without the extra pay for holidays and night shift.
To get a rough idea about taxes, I earn presently 8150€, after taxes about 5400€, wife and two kids. Depending on the night/holiday hours you can calculate with 300 to 600 € (tax free) on top. (almost 7€ per night hour, 50% extra on sundays, 100% extra on holidays, but often enough they 'move' your shift clear of that days, so you work a 5-3-5-2-5-4-5-3 shift)
Flats and houses is depending from location, most expensive in Munich (about a 650000 € for a house located in the subarbs, inner city is far more expensive, about 400000 € for a house in a village on the 'other' side of the airport, 60 to 80 km from Munich, rent differs between 600€ for a small flat, up to 1500€ for better area and more rooms, furniture isn't included.)
Bremen would be the cheapest location, about 30 or 40% of the mentioned rates above. Take a look....
http://immobilienmarkt.sueddeutsche.de/
Wohnimmobilien (mieten = to rent, kaufen= to buy)
a lot of the offers got a link called 'Umgebungsplan', if you click on it, you get a map with the marked object, zoom out and you get a good impression of the area. The airport (and the center Munich) is about 30 km to the NNE of Munich City.
(Wohnung=flat, Haus=house, Anzahl der Zimmer=number of rooms)


I guess no negative sentiment about foreign controllers to be expectet, as long as you don't bring hundreds of colleges with you and work for 60% of our salary ;)
And the industrial relations? hmm, since we just formed (=about 5 years ago) our own union, everything is getting better and better, slowly, often enough with some threats about industrial action by our side, but the situation is improving, at least the part which is defined in the agreements between the company and the union. On the other side the upper management regards the complete controller class as a bunch of unwilling, bored, overpaid, arrogant pain in the neck. They pay as because they need us - if they could get rid of us and could find a computer system doing the work, they would do it in lightning speed! I guess you get the picture...
Currently they are negotiations about working hours, holidays and so on in progress, as mentioned by MUC ARR/DEP in the posts above. And the next issues are already waiting - pension funding, and salary increase.......

and one guess by my side:
When I look at that add in the flight international, I guess most of the foreign controllers (if any) are going to work in Karlsruhe, at least the ACC rated.
APP-rated most probably Frankfurt (Langen) or Munich. But that's only a gut feeling....


Saigor

Saigor and MUC,

Your replies are appreciated.

Saigor, on that income do you live reasonably well?

What about not speaking German? I understand you guys operate in English, but can an Australian or Kiwi expat get by socially until one picks up the language? (As in, we won't get ostracised, drinking beer with the locals is very much part of MY culture!)

Cheers,
TC

Hey guys

Wondering about the education facilities for non German speakers. My 11 year old would definitely be coming along if I were lucky enough to get a position. Does anyone know of a link where I could seek furhter information??

regards

I can't find anything about the ATCO direct access in DFS... neither on the website neither on the web. Is DFS really looking also for non German-speaking ATCO? Any particular requirements or restrictions to apply? Where I can find all the informations? Thank you!

The adds were in Flight International.....they responded straight away so I get the impression they really mean business :ok:

believe or not but be an ATCO ( espicially RDR rated) in Europe in most cases is good option. Even so many problems within ANSPs there is still huge queue in front of ANSPs doors.
My ANSP has the lovest salary in Europe but for 2 position appied 200 young people.
DFS has at least 6 times better salary than mine with some minor difference in daily life costs.
But holiday in Costa Rica costs the same.
also remeber that 1500EUR still represents good salary around Europe.
Of course some exceptions exists but roughly, RDR ATCO in Germany is :ok:

Starting a new life
 

Just a tip for those of you from primarily English speaking countries looking to go to Germany (or other European countries to work.)

You may be able to "work" in English but when you go to have your car repaired, go to the store to buy shoes, have to explain to the landlord about the problem with your heating, etc, etc, etc, you may have difficulties at times getting by with English only. Even the casual conversations at the position and in the break room will likely be just in German.

Also, don't treat going to Europe like a stint in the Middle East. If you think you can go to Germany for a couple of years for the experience, save a few bucks and then return home, it will be a very expensive experience. If you plan on going there, plan on going to live out your life there.

Personally I love Germany but would have to heed my own advice as my German is limited to "Hello", "Goodbye" and "What do you mean, my liederhosen is on backwards."

Anyways, just a thought.

Yes, it is the problem,unless you know Serbian, Turkish..In that case you don't need German for daily life. :ugh:

PDCTA
 

Try this link for the information

http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/job...--10291552.htm

@ singapurcanac:
1500EUR might represent a good salary around Europe! But surely not IN (western) Europe!!! You will survive with it...however you won´t have fun!

@ pdcta:
Hey good old coordination-friend on the other side of the Alps! Are you seriously planning to come over? You´ll be very welcome!

You can live reasonably well with a controller payment.

I have no idea, how living in Germany is, without speaking german. But many germans speak english well enough for daily business.

You won't have a problem finding people to drink beer with. We had some Irish Controllers in Munich, some years ago. They are still visiting us from time to time for the one or the other beer. :ok:

It might be that you have to be fluent in german for APP or lower ACC sectors, as we have some german speaking VFR traffic sometimes. But it might as well be, that you get german lessons payed from the DFS.

As for schools for the kids.. Perhaps you find some useful infos in the following link.
http://www.muenchen.de/Stadtleben/Ed...2aschools.html

@Iturnleftrightnow,
If you read carefully my post it will help us. at first I said that there is an exception in both ways. But in Portugal,( there are the westernmost point of mainland Europe) 1500EUR is huge salary. 600EUR is more likely for many jobs.
Also in Norway 1500EUR will qualify you for social help.
The point of my post was that RDR ATCO in Germany will be able to have active and comfortable life.

if you want to check the taxes and social security on your income in Germany try this link


http://www.focus.de/finanzen/steuern/gehaltsplaner

there you can enter your income (per month=pro Monat or per year=pro Jahr/ brutto=before tax or netto=after tax/ single (Steuerklasse I) or married (Steuerklasse III) and number of kids=Zahl der Kinder)
Bundesland (Bayern for Munich, Badenw. for Karlsruhe and Hessen for Frankfurt/Langen)
health insurance=Krankenkasse (privat most of the time for ATCOs)

and you get your income after tax (without extra pay for shift penalties of course)

and you can live with the money since you are way above the average income here in Germany. And yes, it ain't bad to speak a little of the language, but as long as you stay in the urban area you can survive with english alone. And you can ask for help anytime. We had some folks of Ireland working on a 5 year contract and I think they enjoyed the experience, maybe you find some of them to chit-chat a bit.

and further questions are welcome ;)
even via PM if you want to ask for something special or secret :oh:


Have fun

Saigor

They responded straight away cos they know that when it comes to securing the services of Foxy they are in competition with about 23 other employers who have his CV. :E

Having spent a lot of time in Karlsruhe over the past 6 months I can recommend it as a really pleasant place to live. I found that restaurants could be a bit pricey (but I guess that is standard for Europe) but supermarkets and that sort of stuff were pretty reasonable. A lot of the people who work in Karlsruhe live over the border in France (about 30 kms) as the income tax there is less (not sure if that works for expats though).

Maybe in Munich or Frankfurt the lack of German may not be a huge deal socially as most people may speak English, but in Karlsruhe I found that a lot of the people were German/French bilingual and only those that needed English for their work spoke English.

Anyway just my 5 cents worth. Good luck.

ANSA....
 

....

That shouldn't be an issue on those generous travel allowances should it? :}

@alwaysmovin

guess I'm getting old, memory isn't as good as it was.....


Saigor

Does anyone got any reply to the aplication? I know there has been only one week but still maybe they reply to someone? (Excluding the first reply that we should be patient and wait).
Thanks.

Still not heard anything. I see they've advertised in Flight again this week. Anybody know what's going on?

So is it true that Karlsruhe need in excess of 20 controllers or is someone telling me porky pies?????? :ok:

I think they´ll take everybody who is managing to get through the selection procedure. But I do not have any clue what this procedure will look like and how far the process of selection already had developed.

But: IMHO we actually need more than 20!

Enroute or Approach?

karlrsruhe is only UAC

!turnleftrightnow!
 

Well, my friend... I really like Munich, you guys in Munich ACC and I also like the way we use to work together. So I would not be scared to move "up" there, and honestly I'm thinking about working somewhere else. Just for have some experience abroad.
You know, once with the European Licence would be great having the chance to transfer from a Country to another... also for a definite time and then choose if remain or coming back.
I'd like to work in Germany (but only if it's in Munich or Karlsruhe) otherwise try to apply for Maastricht.
I mean, Padova (or better, Abano Terme... where the ACC is located) is a really great place to live with really nice people: also at work. But... I'm still young without serious relationship so why do I have to stay where I am if someone give me the chance to improve myself, meet other people, learn other languages...??

Interesting or not but DFS "refreshes" adv. on flightglobal yesterday.Now the first one on the list.
Since nobody has received further info from DFS except confirmation what kind of message is that? HRD of DFS is not satisfied with current applicants and now they are looking for better CVs or it is just bad coordination between departments?
Also my spies told me that DFS is looking for 200 ATCOs.
Anyone to confirm or explain what is going on.
Just curious!

Latest news from Karlsruhe UAC:

rumour says Karlsruhe has around 60 applicants from all over (even China or New Zealand) - most of them will be invited to an interview soon. And there's a good chance, they will hire at least 20.

And by the way, you don't necessarily need to speak German to come along. About 90% of the people speak English to some extent, French is spoken by half of them. There's even a European School with Dutch, English, French, German and Italian sections. For the French native speakers, the Alsace is only across the River Rhine (around 30 minutes by car).

Hope to see some of you very soon...

To be more precise APPROACH positions not ACC. Who cares about ACC?

If it across river directly it gives me the next calculation:
-With average speed limitation of 40/60 kph at bridges it means that bridge is at least 20 km wide.
Correct me if I wrong but the longest river bridge in Europe is bridge over river in Lisbon . Only 18 km. So your bridge is 2 km wider at least.
Or you have to swim each time when going to France! :)

Oh trying to be funny - are you?!
Over here we have things called traffic-lights....and lots of traffic!

@!turnleftrightnow!
Of course ,mate!
This corner of Germany is very nice for living/working:ok: and lot of other things and places are within "walking" distance.

It would be nice to work in a civilised nation, with a society not just an economy.

I was just going to resign my expert post, but I might just go the whole hog.

Any updates???
 

Well its seems to me that this thread has died down a little so here we go just going to bring it back to life!!!!

Has anyone heard back from DFS yet? Or anybody working for the moment at Rhine radar here words or any news? I read they might invite applicants for the interview proces.....any news on that by the way.

And just a personal question how does the facility look like? Any chance it looks like Langen because i visited Langen awhile back before they included EDDF app in the mix and well i was really impressed by the equipment and layout. Really nice stuff.

My fiancee is german so an oppurtunity like this to get back over there would be amazing. I loved my time there and well the southwest is just a great place to be so close to everything.

Well life is restored to the thread!!!!!

I also put in an application a couple of weeks ago and haven't heard anything yet. Is there anyone in the know able to let us know what is happening with the applications? I know these things take time but the wait can be agonising at times! :ugh:

There are about 10 aussies who have put applications in so hopefully a few of us can get over there.

What is the golf like around Karlsruhe? It seems like there are a few nice courses, do many of the controllers play?

Thanks

West Atc

Why is everybody in this forum so sure of ending up in Karlsruhe? As far as I know, the ACCs in Munich and Langen need "fresh meat", too.

Because Karlsruhe (Rhein Radar) is Upper Airspace, therefore you don't need any German language skills. In the Lower Airspace (Munich and Langen, both have an approach as well) basic german language is (almost) mandatory, since our VFR Flyers may call in in German to cross some protected airspace or to drop some guys with a chute....

Saigor

Well from my knowledge just like Saigor said german is a requirement fro all ACC type facilities in Germany. The only exception i could see would be the major airports but well then again i'm not quite aware of the operations but everytime i listened to Fra app it was most of the time in English but that is just the times i was able to listen.

However when you think of rhine radar well overall it is just like eurocontrol. All Eu members can apply since all traffic is conducted in the english language which makes things easier to find candidates.

So therefore of course when DFS opened slots for foreign controllers well everybody assumes that the placement will be in Karlsruhe or maybe Bremen (i think that is were the north UAC is right???).

But overall just by respect i believe that who ever applied for this oppurtunity should take in consideration that down the road an intensive class in German might be a good idea. It would be in my case....plus it would make the lady happy hehe