DFS-Germany Direct Entry Atco-Info please
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DFS-Germany Direct Entry Atco-Info please
Hi All,
In flight international Dfs have placed an add looking for direct entry controllers with area or approach ratings. The jobs are advertised as permanent full time with a start date as soon as possible!
To any Dfs contollers out there or anyone else with solid information i have a number of questions. If for whatever reason you dont feel like posting in an open forum with your replies feel free to PM me.
1) Any idea of the experince required or is the bog standard 5 years they are all looking for?
2) Where are the area and approach centers located and what are the chances of being stationed in each one?
3) What are the medical requirements-class 2 or class 3?
4) Pay-What is the minimum and maximum a DFs controller earns?
-How many points on the pay scale and is there a career
progreesion?
- Average pay for a 10 year experienced area/app
-How is the pay structured-basic/bonus/overtime etc?
5) Annual leave entitlements-number of days per year/time in leiu for public holidays etc?
6) Duties and rosters-How many on/off days and night duties?
And finally-how is the industrial relations side of things? Are any newcomers going to land into a middle of union/management fight any time soon. How do the Dfs guys feel about the newcomers?
As you have guessed im interested! Can i thank you all in advance
Ock1f
In flight international Dfs have placed an add looking for direct entry controllers with area or approach ratings. The jobs are advertised as permanent full time with a start date as soon as possible!
To any Dfs contollers out there or anyone else with solid information i have a number of questions. If for whatever reason you dont feel like posting in an open forum with your replies feel free to PM me.
1) Any idea of the experince required or is the bog standard 5 years they are all looking for?
2) Where are the area and approach centers located and what are the chances of being stationed in each one?
3) What are the medical requirements-class 2 or class 3?
4) Pay-What is the minimum and maximum a DFs controller earns?
-How many points on the pay scale and is there a career
progreesion?
- Average pay for a 10 year experienced area/app
-How is the pay structured-basic/bonus/overtime etc?
5) Annual leave entitlements-number of days per year/time in leiu for public holidays etc?
6) Duties and rosters-How many on/off days and night duties?
And finally-how is the industrial relations side of things? Are any newcomers going to land into a middle of union/management fight any time soon. How do the Dfs guys feel about the newcomers?
As you have guessed im interested! Can i thank you all in advance
Ock1f
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Hi!
only time for a short answer at the moment!
1) No idea
2) Centers are in: Munich, Langen (near Frankfurt), Bremen, Karlsruhe
cannot tell you anything about chances
3) medical class 1 on eyes and ears
4) around 7800EURO gross salary for a new licensed ATCO; after 11years 8500EURO
5) annual leave just re-negotiated. presently 29days.
about 5-8 days extra for pub. holidays compensation
6) in general 5 days on, 3 days off. just in negotiation but you can calculate with this.
7) ?????????
Where are you from? Why do you want to leave for Germany?
Greetings from Munich
only time for a short answer at the moment!
1) No idea
2) Centers are in: Munich, Langen (near Frankfurt), Bremen, Karlsruhe
cannot tell you anything about chances
3) medical class 1 on eyes and ears
4) around 7800EURO gross salary for a new licensed ATCO; after 11years 8500EURO
5) annual leave just re-negotiated. presently 29days.
about 5-8 days extra for pub. holidays compensation
6) in general 5 days on, 3 days off. just in negotiation but you can calculate with this.
7) ?????????
Where are you from? Why do you want to leave for Germany?
Greetings from Munich
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Hello mucc in munchen,
Thanks for the quick reply !
In response to your questions-my location at the moment is Ireland and the simple reason for wanting a move is a change for pastures new-pure and simple. There may a good few Irish looking into this as well as looking elsewhere too.
You sound slightly surprised that someone would want to move to Dfs- any reasons why?
Has the annual leave been negotiated to 29 days or is that likely to increase?
In Munich-nice place by the way-the 5 and 3 roster any chance of the start/finish time and any variations of.
Thanks again
Ock1f
Thanks for the quick reply !
In response to your questions-my location at the moment is Ireland and the simple reason for wanting a move is a change for pastures new-pure and simple. There may a good few Irish looking into this as well as looking elsewhere too.
You sound slightly surprised that someone would want to move to Dfs- any reasons why?
Has the annual leave been negotiated to 29 days or is that likely to increase?
In Munich-nice place by the way-the 5 and 3 roster any chance of the start/finish time and any variations of.
Thanks again
Ock1f
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Hi!
not surprised, just interested!
The annual leave is 29 days and it looks like it increases soon. I can't tell you to what figures, as we are still negotiating. Maybe more in 2 weeks on this, if there is a consent at the end of negotiations.
the roster: 5/3 ... you start 2 days early, 1 early or late, 2 late (or 1 late 1night). time at work 8hours (2 1/2 break/recreation) makes 5 1/2 at the board!
cu
not surprised, just interested!
The annual leave is 29 days and it looks like it increases soon. I can't tell you to what figures, as we are still negotiating. Maybe more in 2 weeks on this, if there is a consent at the end of negotiations.
the roster: 5/3 ... you start 2 days early, 1 early or late, 2 late (or 1 late 1night). time at work 8hours (2 1/2 break/recreation) makes 5 1/2 at the board!
cu
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What sort of tax could be expected ie. what would the net salary be? Is that incl all extras (not overtime- just things like shift penalty)? What would one expect to pay for rent on a flat, and on a house?
I think ock1f is asking re 7) Is there any negative sentiment about foreign controllers joining? Is there any industrial relations issue/fight with management?
I think ock1f is asking re 7) Is there any negative sentiment about foreign controllers joining? Is there any industrial relations issue/fight with management?
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Quote:
What sort of tax could be expected ie. what would the net salary be? Is that incl all extras (not overtime- just things like shift penalty)? What would one expect to pay for rent on a flat, and on a house?
I think ock1f is asking re 7) Is there any negative sentiment about foreign controllers joining? Is there any industrial relations issue/fight with management?
Well the tax depends on family situation. Wife and kids reduce your tax a bit, the 7800/8500 is without the extra pay for holidays and night shift.
To get a rough idea about taxes, I earn presently 8150, after taxes about 5400, wife and two kids. Depending on the night/holiday hours you can calculate with 300 to 600 (tax free) on top. (almost 7 per night hour, 50% extra on sundays, 100% extra on holidays, but often enough they 'move' your shift clear of that days, so you work a 5-3-5-2-5-4-5-3 shift)
Flats and houses is depending from location, most expensive in Munich (about a 650000 for a house located in the subarbs, inner city is far more expensive, about 400000 for a house in a village on the 'other' side of the airport, 60 to 80 km from Munich, rent differs between 600 for a small flat, up to 1500 for better area and more rooms, furniture isn't included.)
Bremen would be the cheapest location, about 30 or 40% of the mentioned rates above. Take a look....
http://immobilienmarkt.sueddeutsche.de/
Wohnimmobilien (mieten = to rent, kaufen= to buy)
a lot of the offers got a link called 'Umgebungsplan', if you click on it, you get a map with the marked object, zoom out and you get a good impression of the area. The airport (and the center Munich) is about 30 km to the NNE of Munich City.
(Wohnung=flat, Haus=house, Anzahl der Zimmer=number of rooms)
I guess no negative sentiment about foreign controllers to be expectet, as long as you don't bring hundreds of colleges with you and work for 60% of our salary
And the industrial relations? hmm, since we just formed (=about 5 years ago) our own union, everything is getting better and better, slowly, often enough with some threats about industrial action by our side, but the situation is improving, at least the part which is defined in the agreements between the company and the union. On the other side the upper management regards the complete controller class as a bunch of unwilling, bored, overpaid, arrogant pain in the neck. They pay as because they need us - if they could get rid of us and could find a computer system doing the work, they would do it in lightning speed! I guess you get the picture...
Currently they are negotiations about working hours, holidays and so on in progress, as mentioned by MUC ARR/DEP in the posts above. And the next issues are already waiting - pension funding, and salary increase.......
and one guess by my side:
When I look at that add in the flight international, I guess most of the foreign controllers (if any) are going to work in Karlsruhe, at least the ACC rated.
APP-rated most probably Frankfurt (Langen) or Munich. But that's only a gut feeling....
Saigor
What sort of tax could be expected ie. what would the net salary be? Is that incl all extras (not overtime- just things like shift penalty)? What would one expect to pay for rent on a flat, and on a house?
I think ock1f is asking re 7) Is there any negative sentiment about foreign controllers joining? Is there any industrial relations issue/fight with management?
Well the tax depends on family situation. Wife and kids reduce your tax a bit, the 7800/8500 is without the extra pay for holidays and night shift.
To get a rough idea about taxes, I earn presently 8150, after taxes about 5400, wife and two kids. Depending on the night/holiday hours you can calculate with 300 to 600 (tax free) on top. (almost 7 per night hour, 50% extra on sundays, 100% extra on holidays, but often enough they 'move' your shift clear of that days, so you work a 5-3-5-2-5-4-5-3 shift)
Flats and houses is depending from location, most expensive in Munich (about a 650000 for a house located in the subarbs, inner city is far more expensive, about 400000 for a house in a village on the 'other' side of the airport, 60 to 80 km from Munich, rent differs between 600 for a small flat, up to 1500 for better area and more rooms, furniture isn't included.)
Bremen would be the cheapest location, about 30 or 40% of the mentioned rates above. Take a look....
http://immobilienmarkt.sueddeutsche.de/
Wohnimmobilien (mieten = to rent, kaufen= to buy)
a lot of the offers got a link called 'Umgebungsplan', if you click on it, you get a map with the marked object, zoom out and you get a good impression of the area. The airport (and the center Munich) is about 30 km to the NNE of Munich City.
(Wohnung=flat, Haus=house, Anzahl der Zimmer=number of rooms)
I guess no negative sentiment about foreign controllers to be expectet, as long as you don't bring hundreds of colleges with you and work for 60% of our salary
And the industrial relations? hmm, since we just formed (=about 5 years ago) our own union, everything is getting better and better, slowly, often enough with some threats about industrial action by our side, but the situation is improving, at least the part which is defined in the agreements between the company and the union. On the other side the upper management regards the complete controller class as a bunch of unwilling, bored, overpaid, arrogant pain in the neck. They pay as because they need us - if they could get rid of us and could find a computer system doing the work, they would do it in lightning speed! I guess you get the picture...
Currently they are negotiations about working hours, holidays and so on in progress, as mentioned by MUC ARR/DEP in the posts above. And the next issues are already waiting - pension funding, and salary increase.......
and one guess by my side:
When I look at that add in the flight international, I guess most of the foreign controllers (if any) are going to work in Karlsruhe, at least the ACC rated.
APP-rated most probably Frankfurt (Langen) or Munich. But that's only a gut feeling....
Saigor
Last edited by Saigor; 12th Jan 2008 at 01:04.
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Saigor and MUC,
Your replies are appreciated.
Saigor, on that income do you live reasonably well?
What about not speaking German? I understand you guys operate in English, but can an Australian or Kiwi expat get by socially until one picks up the language? (As in, we won't get ostracised, drinking beer with the locals is very much part of MY culture!)
Cheers,
TC
Your replies are appreciated.
Saigor, on that income do you live reasonably well?
What about not speaking German? I understand you guys operate in English, but can an Australian or Kiwi expat get by socially until one picks up the language? (As in, we won't get ostracised, drinking beer with the locals is very much part of MY culture!)
Cheers,
TC
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Hey guys
Wondering about the education facilities for non German speakers. My 11 year old would definitely be coming along if I were lucky enough to get a position. Does anyone know of a link where I could seek furhter information??
regards
Wondering about the education facilities for non German speakers. My 11 year old would definitely be coming along if I were lucky enough to get a position. Does anyone know of a link where I could seek furhter information??
regards
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I can't find anything about the ATCO direct access in DFS... neither on the website neither on the web. Is DFS really looking also for non German-speaking ATCO? Any particular requirements or restrictions to apply? Where I can find all the informations? Thank you!
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on that income do you live reasonably well?
My ANSP has the lovest salary in Europe but for 2 position appied 200 young people.
DFS has at least 6 times better salary than mine with some minor difference in daily life costs.
But holiday in Costa Rica costs the same.
also remeber that 1500EUR still represents good salary around Europe.
Of course some exceptions exists but roughly, RDR ATCO in Germany is
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Starting a new life
Just a tip for those of you from primarily English speaking countries looking to go to Germany (or other European countries to work.)
You may be able to "work" in English but when you go to have your car repaired, go to the store to buy shoes, have to explain to the landlord about the problem with your heating, etc, etc, etc, you may have difficulties at times getting by with English only. Even the casual conversations at the position and in the break room will likely be just in German.
Also, don't treat going to Europe like a stint in the Middle East. If you think you can go to Germany for a couple of years for the experience, save a few bucks and then return home, it will be a very expensive experience. If you plan on going there, plan on going to live out your life there.
Personally I love Germany but would have to heed my own advice as my German is limited to "Hello", "Goodbye" and "What do you mean, my liederhosen is on backwards."
Anyways, just a thought.
You may be able to "work" in English but when you go to have your car repaired, go to the store to buy shoes, have to explain to the landlord about the problem with your heating, etc, etc, etc, you may have difficulties at times getting by with English only. Even the casual conversations at the position and in the break room will likely be just in German.
Also, don't treat going to Europe like a stint in the Middle East. If you think you can go to Germany for a couple of years for the experience, save a few bucks and then return home, it will be a very expensive experience. If you plan on going there, plan on going to live out your life there.
Personally I love Germany but would have to heed my own advice as my German is limited to "Hello", "Goodbye" and "What do you mean, my liederhosen is on backwards."
Anyways, just a thought.
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but when you go to have your car repaired, go to the store to buy shoes, have to explain to the landlord about the problem with your heating, etc, etc, etc, you may have difficulties at times getting by with English only.
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@ singapurcanac:
1500EUR might represent a good salary around Europe! But surely not IN (western) Europe!!! You will survive with it...however you wonŽt have fun!
@ pdcta:
Hey good old coordination-friend on the other side of the Alps! Are you seriously planning to come over? YouŽll be very welcome!
1500EUR might represent a good salary around Europe! But surely not IN (western) Europe!!! You will survive with it...however you wonŽt have fun!
@ pdcta:
Hey good old coordination-friend on the other side of the Alps! Are you seriously planning to come over? YouŽll be very welcome!
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You can live reasonably well with a controller payment.
I have no idea, how living in Germany is, without speaking german. But many germans speak english well enough for daily business.
You won't have a problem finding people to drink beer with. We had some Irish Controllers in Munich, some years ago. They are still visiting us from time to time for the one or the other beer.
It might be that you have to be fluent in german for APP or lower ACC sectors, as we have some german speaking VFR traffic sometimes. But it might as well be, that you get german lessons payed from the DFS.
As for schools for the kids.. Perhaps you find some useful infos in the following link.
http://www.muenchen.de/Stadtleben/Ed...2aschools.html
I have no idea, how living in Germany is, without speaking german. But many germans speak english well enough for daily business.
You won't have a problem finding people to drink beer with. We had some Irish Controllers in Munich, some years ago. They are still visiting us from time to time for the one or the other beer.
It might be that you have to be fluent in german for APP or lower ACC sectors, as we have some german speaking VFR traffic sometimes. But it might as well be, that you get german lessons payed from the DFS.
As for schools for the kids.. Perhaps you find some useful infos in the following link.
http://www.muenchen.de/Stadtleben/Ed...2aschools.html
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But surely not IN (western) Europe!!!
If you read carefully my post it will help us. at first I said that there is an exception in both ways. But in Portugal,( there are the westernmost point of mainland Europe) 1500EUR is huge salary. 600EUR is more likely for many jobs.
Also in Norway 1500EUR will qualify you for social help.
The point of my post was that RDR ATCO in Germany will be able to have active and comfortable life.
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if you want to check the taxes and social security on your income in Germany try this link
http://www.focus.de/finanzen/steuern/gehaltsplaner
there you can enter your income (per month=pro Monat or per year=pro Jahr/ brutto=before tax or netto=after tax/ single (Steuerklasse I) or married (Steuerklasse III) and number of kids=Zahl der Kinder)
Bundesland (Bayern for Munich, Badenw. for Karlsruhe and Hessen for Frankfurt/Langen)
health insurance=Krankenkasse (privat most of the time for ATCOs)
and you get your income after tax (without extra pay for shift penalties of course)
and you can live with the money since you are way above the average income here in Germany. And yes, it ain't bad to speak a little of the language, but as long as you stay in the urban area you can survive with english alone. And you can ask for help anytime. We had some folks of Ireland working on a 5 year contract and I think they enjoyed the experience, maybe you find some of them to chit-chat a bit.
and further questions are welcome
even via PM if you want to ask for something special or secret
Have fun
Saigor
http://www.focus.de/finanzen/steuern/gehaltsplaner
there you can enter your income (per month=pro Monat or per year=pro Jahr/ brutto=before tax or netto=after tax/ single (Steuerklasse I) or married (Steuerklasse III) and number of kids=Zahl der Kinder)
Bundesland (Bayern for Munich, Badenw. for Karlsruhe and Hessen for Frankfurt/Langen)
health insurance=Krankenkasse (privat most of the time for ATCOs)
and you get your income after tax (without extra pay for shift penalties of course)
and you can live with the money since you are way above the average income here in Germany. And yes, it ain't bad to speak a little of the language, but as long as you stay in the urban area you can survive with english alone. And you can ask for help anytime. We had some folks of Ireland working on a 5 year contract and I think they enjoyed the experience, maybe you find some of them to chit-chat a bit.
and further questions are welcome
even via PM if you want to ask for something special or secret
Have fun
Saigor
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The adds were in Flight International.....they responded straight away so I get the impression they really mean business
Having spent a lot of time in Karlsruhe over the past 6 months I can recommend it as a really pleasant place to live. I found that restaurants could be a bit pricey (but I guess that is standard for Europe) but supermarkets and that sort of stuff were pretty reasonable. A lot of the people who work in Karlsruhe live over the border in France (about 30 kms) as the income tax there is less (not sure if that works for expats though).
Maybe in Munich or Frankfurt the lack of German may not be a huge deal socially as most people may speak English, but in Karlsruhe I found that a lot of the people were German/French bilingual and only those that needed English for their work spoke English.
Anyway just my 5 cents worth. Good luck.
