Paying for ATC selection preparation.
 

If Boss Radar could endulge me a little here, there's a topic that has come up over the past couple of days that I'm very interested in getting other opinions on (and if it starts bordering on advertising or seeking custom, I'll happily delete it)

The topic : Paying somebody to be "coached" for an Air Traffic Control interview.

I full understand if somebody had their heart set on being a controller, and would do anything to get a course. However, what are others thoughs on, as was suggested, paying a person/s to "prepare" for an interview. The information for the "interview" stage of the process is available here, and can be expanded upon by visiting an operational unit. Unfortunately, there is more to the process than that. Aptitude testing does just that........tests for aptitude. Personality suitability testing is the same. Does forking over hard earnt dosh encompass this side of things?

Having thought about this, I'm sure there are people out there who have thought "well, even if it's going to give me a slight advantage, I'll go for it". What happens if the application is unsuccesful? Effort AND money down the drain?

Thoughts?

This is not an attempt to stir !!!!!.

Jerricho,

I fully agree with you, if its not in someone in aint in them!!! It is possible to coach someone in the personnel and technical interviews I feel, as there is a certain way one can go about the interviews and be MUCH better prepared. However, the psychometric testing is IMPOSSIBLE to fake, you could get example tests, but if you cant do that type of test - tough!

If someones prepared to hand over their cash then I feel sorry thats the best way they feel to succeed - but I know its an all costs application for most.

Is there a side issue here though that if one could help their way through or somehowfake the results - wouldnt they just fail in Bournemouth - or take a place from someone possibly more able?

:confused:

Totally agreed Fidgell. But, as a further point (and Gonzo pointed out yesterday before the thread was cut) it's information that many people here readily and freely help with.

I still agree with Jericho.

My previous post before the thread was chopped pointed out that - Guidance on entry requirements is freely available from the company you are applying to and that this BB has an extensive support network for wannabes.

A free website with most information is also available in the sticky thread.

Jericho's initial response was "is this a joke"

I still wonder if it is.........

Having just been through the interview you can have my two-penneth. I just really don't see how paying for an individual's help can be worth it. I mean - the replies to my questions and general help and info offered on this site (freely) was really fantastic and I've been at pains to thank everyone responsible (I made it through). But no one piece of advice or example questions came up. To be honest I was amazed at my technical interview - it just flew by and covered only a little of what I'd worried about learning. But I guess the point is that I had tried and learnt the things that another interviewer may have brought up.

As regards the personality stuff I suppose you could be given some stock answers but to be honest that's going to be seen through fairly quickly isn't it? I mean they aren't expecting automatons just some decent explanations and a bit of confidence getting them across. The computer tests you'd have to just practise and practise and I suppose you might improve but they're surely set up to test your adaptability at getting and applying information quickly. The main thing here is the breadth of experience that multiple input offers and the general community spirit here at PPRuNe is the real help (and those contact details for visits because NATS aren't helping there).

The idea of paying an individual for the service just seems pointless and a little arrogant of those concerned - to think that they have the magic responses for all applicants is a bit off and to be honest it would be a shame if people who want the opportunity as much as us hopefuls do were to pay for something that is far surpassed herein for nowt.


......

and relax.:hmm:

Of course, there is the issue of "no guarantee". Of course there is no guarantee. Sorry to be so blunt, but would anybody actually pay for this?

Well if folks got paid for helping out, arranging visits, setting up mock interviews, etc, then there's a few of us owed a few bucks :)

Danny, once I get all that cash in, I RESIGN ;)

Interesting comments. While I agree you cannot teach someone 'aptitude' for the job I do beleive that coaching in interview technique can be beneficial.

You can have a guy or gal who has everything it needs to do the job but just goes to pieces in an interview. We once had an ATSA who fell at one hurdle in the interview process. We sent him on a two day assertiveness training course. He is now just about to complete his Approach Radar Course.

As I said on the other thread, unless the 'coach' is currently heavily involved in Recruitment with all the employers he/she is offering advice on, then how can it be viewed as any more authoritative than information found elsewhere?

This is a crisis, good for him! But, as you mention, it is only one hurdle to overcome. I really find it unbelievable that the other areas will be covered.

And, having just been talking with guys I work with, the following situation was proposed. Candidate in interview performs very well and is asked "How did you prepare for this?"

"Oh, I paid some dude.............."

(And well done Billy :ok: )

Having recently been unsuccesful at interview stage, I would have gladly paid (within budget) to have someone help me through the process ie interview skills. Granted that the aptitude test etc cannot be prepared for, the selection process makes it practically impossible for an applicant to be succesful if they have all the knowledge/aptitude/IQ needed but are awful at interviews.

Not suggesting that I'm the next Einstein but for someone like myself who knows the answers and what they want to say but just simply cannot put it into words that an interviewer (or anyone else for that matter) would understand!

In hindsight, if I could have had some mock interviews to help me with my known weakness, even if I had to pay for them I would have done it in order to succeed in a very desirable career.

P.S. Congrats Billy!

Becoming an Air Traffic Controller is a bit like winning at poker: a bit of skill, but mostly luck.

I recall my own angst more than 30 years ago as I sat in a roomfull of hopefulls staring into a test booklet. What did putting together imaginary boxes have to do with seperating airplanes?

Nothing, it turns out.

Today the FAA is tinkering with something called ATSAT, a test to end all tests, which will finally show who will be pushing tin 20, 30 years down line. And if you believe that, I've got a bridge over River Thames for sale that I think will interest you.

Truth be told, passing the interview/test phase is still miles away from becoming a controller. Do what ya gotta do to get in the door, then: good luck!

ATC 24/7

Steffi, my condolences, but as PPRuNe Radar mentions, he has set up mock interviews for people. I've done it for 2 people. There are a great deal of genuine people around here and in the game that will go out of their way to help (even Gonzo :p ).

Senario: suppose a candidate was "coached" for interviews and alike, being plied with information he or she could regurgitate but not with a full undrestanding. I know my "bull!!!!!" detector isn't the best in the world, but it's not hard to determine if a person does actually know what they are talking about. I know there has been speculation on the forum here about perceptions of how "cut-throat" the NATS interview stage of selection is. A person who is genuinly interested and prepared IMHO is going perform better than somebody who as swotted up a week or two before. And believe me, there will be individuals out there who think "Hey, ATC is a good paying job I've got nothing else to do. Where's that guy's phone number? Hi! Get me a job as an ATCO". Do we really want applicants like that?

I would like to say that individual, one to one, coaching is good. How many companieis offer pre cabin crew training? This company, which will start in the new year, will provide all the necessary information to pass an atc interview. It will not guarantee a pass but will provide as much help as possible. Visits to units will be arranged, interview preparation and atc knowledge will be provided. When I got through the process in the mid 80's I was lucky. If I had private tuition then I would have been more confident. At the end of the day, if you wanted a job and had to pay for private tuition, fron qualified professionals, then what would you do?
Think about it, 100 applicants, 50 have private tuition, the other 50 self train. What is the outcome? I would say that most of the self train people would come second to the others.
It's called oneupmanship.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

No ILS..... Its called PROFITIERING aka taking money off those who are duped into believing theyre getting something worthwhile for it!!!

Id advise all prospective candidates to get the info together from here, books, websites and what NATS supply and simply study it - hell do it before you even apply so its in yer noggin.

After all, thats all this "business" will do for you - theres nothing they can provide that aint free to all!!!

Good Luck to all - your future career is more honest than some :mad:

Totally missing the point.

I'll repeat what VectorLine said earlier, just in case you missed it.............

I do have a burning question regarding what business you would take as well. What if somebody approached you that obviously didn't have an interest in aviation, basically saw the advert and thought "Yeah, they get paid well. I'll give that a try.........here's my money!". You're going to take it, aren't you?

Like Fidgell, I wish anybody who wants to get into the job all the best. Just be warned, you don't have to pay for it!

Although I have never conducted interviews for Student ATCO positions, I have conducted hundreds of ATSA recruitment/promotion interviews for NATS. I don't claim to be 100% perfect (although I haven't had a failure to validate yet!) but I would say that i have a well honed bull$hit detector - as have (I am sure) those that do the ATCO interviews.I would suggest to any ATC wannabee that they do their own research rather than relying on someone else to provide the information. I would far rather train those with a genuiine interest/aptitude for the job, rather than someone who has bought themself an interview pass (which is what you appear to be trying to sell ILS 119.5)
They stick out like a sore thumb Jerricho.

Steffi If it is simply interview technique.. ask anyone who works in HR or recruitment. If it is more the technical side - ask at your unit visits (by the way, anyone tries to organise visits to this unit in exchange for money - forget it!)

Chips

Good point Mr Chips....

Is it morale, legal and/or ok by NATS for ILSs "business" to SELL trips to units???

I am ALWAYS happy to show visitors around and let them plug in with me and answer questions... is ILS selling my services???

F:mad: :mad: K ME

Actually, I hadn't even thought of that. How many people would be happy knowing an individual was paid to organise a visit to a unit. I think NATS certainly wouldn't. And no, this isn't looking for a "cut of the action" or "Geeze, I wish I had thought of that".

The more I think about this, the more it stinks.

It is rumoured that NATS already charges for some visits.

The story was that a group of Thai (I think ) people (they might be ATC Im not sure) paid £1500 each for a visit to Swanwick recently.

Anyone have more substantial info?

VL

I worked my proverbials off for a couple of months earlier this year whilst I was going through selection. For the aptitude tests I spent a lot of time doing practice cube questions over and over and over again as I didn't feel at all confident about doing them. When it came to the actual tests I whizzed through that particular part and ended up wondering what all the fuss was about.

I honestly believe and stand to (hopefully not) be corrected that that shows that I have the required ability but just needed some practice as opposed to I didn't have the ability and so learnt how to do such questions.

Before the interviews I had mock interviews. I also tried to learn everything I could think of. I read business plans, learnt about FAST, iFACTS, the stack display trial, looked at movement figures, budgets, NATS organisation charts, last twelve months worth of NATSnews, news archive on the intranet and more. I reckoned that because I already work for NATS and had access to all this info I'd be expected to know more than an external candidate.

I visited Swanwick, TC and Stansted because again I reckoned I'd be expected to use the fact I could get visits arranged easily to show just how much I wanted to step up from being an ATSA.

With hindsight I studied stuff that was never going to come up but as a result of learning and seeing so much I got to each phase thinking "bring it on/ask me whatever you want" rather than "I hope I don't get asked this/I wonder if I've done enough". It also meant that I was able to show the interviewers how flippin' much I wanted to be an ATCO. However, would I have had that level of confidence if I had paid someone to teach me what they deemed was "enough" to get through selection?

At the end of the day, who is going to be seen to have gone that extra little bit in their desire to suceed? The person who is prepared to throw money and be lead by the hand or the person who has the balls/nouse/drive to find out for themselves? After all...

Aptitude test books - £15.98
Petrol for unit visits - £50
Showing how much I wanted the job - flamin' priceless!!

Finally, I wonder how NATS have managed to fill so many courses if this buyable "service" hasn't been available before to help people pass?:confused: :confused:

You are now all contracted to 'coach' me for free, hopefully in a year's time :O

P.S. Ask HR??? You're having a laugh!!!

Right, so in reference to a PM I recieved stating the response had been enormous :rolleyes:, who out there still thinks it's a good idea?

Mock interviews and interview technique hints, yes.
Teaching spatial awareness and motivation, no.
Charging to arrange visits, definitely not!

Just my opinion!

Did anyone actually think it was a good idea in the first place other than they guy pushing it?

As I said, I recieved in rather haughty PM stating "what was my problem, response had been great, and when he had his Ferrari and place in St Tropez, he would send me a message:" :confused::rolleyes:

I feel sorry for anybody with no real aptitude who goes this route. Basically all he/she/it is learning is interview technique. Most of the info is here on-line for free; if you have no aptitude you will - hopefully - be caught out further up the line. However by that time you have wasted a lot of people's time and money.

BTW If the person operating this service is employed by NATS would he/she be required to declare his/her involvement?

Good point Lon.

Misuse of NATS intellectual property.

On a tenuous link to that - I always wondered whether the person who produces the londoncontrol.com/ programme works for NATS and whether that was theft of intellectual property......

NATS staff have to declare secondary employment if it meets the terms of the Staff Manual.

Without seeing the thing it's hard to know. Certainly the airspace, routes, sectors, etc are all information freely available in the public domain. That said, if anything specific has been filched from the MATS Part 2 (such as a specific procedure or wordings) then that is commercially protected and could be classed as IPR theft I suppose.

I notice our little entrepreneur is being very quiet.

Agreed Jerricho, where is this fool???

Do Matchbox make a Ferrari for his Barbie St Tropez villa???

:p :eek:

He's probably in management.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Sorry have been away but still here and listening with interest.
Another scenario, what if this person decided not to give one to one tuition and then decided to write a book about modern atc. The book would then be sold in bookshops, therefore making money for the writer. What is the difference? A couple of things have come to mind from this thread. Firstly, none of the atco's who have posted replies seem to value their profession, meaning value, and how much are you worth. Secondly, the negative views show that nobody has an entreprenurial sense. If there are people out there with the guts and vision to find a niche in the market then good on them. An atco's position is on the same level as a doctor, lawyer, teacher and any other profession. How many doctors work for the nhs and then do private work for BUPA, loads. Why? to make more money. How many atco's have other businesses, loads. How many pilots have other businesses, loads. What is wrong with one person finding a gap in the market and making money, nothing.
If all your fuses in you house blew tonight would you expect the electrician to advise you how to fix them, for free. If you could give your professional knowledge, for a small fee, to prospective atco's then why not.
PS Jerricho
I will reply to you with a PM and answer all your questions.
ILS 119.5

PS Fidgell
Yes I am a fool with 10 o'levels, 3 a'levels, a degree in physics, atco licence, atpl, happily married in a large house with wonderful children. Do not try to accuse me about success and pontificate about me being a fool. I think I am slightly above the "fool" that you call me.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

True Bliss
 

Lon,

It took me 34 years sitting in front of a radar scope and standing in the tower cab to put together the knowledege I inpart to my trainees daily. Cute quote, but give it a bit more thought, please.

Shame on you!

ATC 24/7

The insinuation that there are people here who don't value their abilities and profession borders on farcical. And the analogies used are pointless. Do you really need it explained to you that an electrician's job involves changing fuses, yet as an ATCO you are licenced to perform your duties at your place of work (try heading down to your nearest uncontrolled airfield and start trying to exercise your abilities as a controller)

When an ATCO trains somebody on the job, they are paid for it (not very well, but that's another story). The ATCO must undergo a course to become an OJTI, and there are strict guidelines that must be followed in undertaking these duties, and should they not be up to scratch, steps are taken. Being an ATCO, you should know all this.

What you seem to be suggesting is imparting whatever knowledge you claim to have, for a fee. Regualtion issues? Conflict of interest issues? Who says the information you're going to impart is correct? The poor individual who has forked over the money won't really know will they, just that they weren't successful in their application.

Also, and this is a question I have asked you twice in a PM, but you have ignored. What if a person presented themselves to your business that obviously wasn't suited to the job, but still wanted to apply? Would you suggest they didn't? Or would you take their money and do everything to help them towards getting through the assessment, knowing full well their chances were slim to none?

Hang on Jerricho,
this now seems a personal battle between you and I. It is not supposed to be. What is CAS, what is a CTZ, what is a CTA, what is a MATZ, what is a RAS,RIS. All questions which can be asked at an interview. What are cumulous clouds, where is the low pressure system when the wind is behind you. These are all questions, and more, which can be asked. It all boils down to the fact that if you were willing to pay, for example £10.00, and have a better advantage of obtaining a job. Is it worth it? No guarantees but good tuition. I take my hat off to those who like me did all the groundwork before any interviews. But I will put my hat back on again to all of you who are trying to stop a company from working.
If a candidate was not suitable then no. I would not take their money nor would I make them think that they were suitable. As far as I am aware the company will only take suitable candidates and teach them the ropes. Whatever they need to know then they can find out.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

A gentle reminder that we should not attack an individual or individuals on this Forum.

Debate should be about ideas and viewpoints, not personalities.

Some folks may wish to look at their posts and delete or edit them accordingly.

Would the applicants be required by this business to pass aptitude tests to assess their ability to pass aptitude tests? :)

Once a visit had been arranged, would the person who'd arranged the visit be responsible for looking after the pupil during the visit? Would they be doing this whilst in on AAVA?

Ok, so if NATS are approached by this organisation, why not charge for visits?

Take the following example. A group of French trainee ATCOs (who work in the South of France so have no contact with NATS professionally) visit a NATS airport. The visit is organised by a French commercial outfit that teaches aviation English. NATS business development charges said commercial organisation as NATS knowledge, intellectual property is being passed on but nothing of direct benefit to NATS is gained. Surely charging for this is logical.

Now take the case of an ATCO trainee applicant. He phones this NATS airport, explains his situation and arranges a visit. The ATCOs are happy to help him and show him around. Benefit to NATS - possible new ATCO. Of course there should be no charge for these visits especially as they are recommended to applicants. However, if these visits were being arranged by a commercial organisation...

atcea.com your career mirrors mine, except it was 37 years in ATC as controller, Training Officer, Supervisor and System Developer but only m.e./ifr I'm afraid.
my experience showed that the best Controllers did not neccessarilly make the best instructors, nor the best instructors the best controllers.

Let's get back to the subject as the mods are a bit touchy recently
:)

Here since before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus a Rigger