Lets try and get my thoughts straight on this issue...

Anyone facing an interview can get guidance here FOR FREE
Anyone wanting a visit to a NATS unit can do so FOR FREE
Only the interviewers actually know what will be asked
Nobody can ever really prepare for the aptitude tests
A good interviewer will spot a coached candidate instantly

Yep, I think that about covers it....

Hmmmm

Just looking at the questions raised by ILS as possible interview questions.

Just to make it clear to any wannabes reading this.......

It is unlikely that you will be asked such involved questions at the technical interview. This is information TAUGHT AT THE COLLEGE!!

I had no aviation experience when I applied for the job. For various reasons (living outside the UK for one) I was unable to get hold of any of the suggested reading material.

I prepared for the aptitude tests by practicing the test paper sent by NATS and doing puzzles in newspapers. I got through it (indicating I possibly have the aptitude for ATC?) and went to the interview armed with the knowledge I gleaned from NATS (out of date) brochures and a browse through some spotters books I got from a library.

The questions I was asked were either based on the information I had been sent, or were situations to test my thinking - not aviation knowledge.

ILS is perfectly right to think of a business use for his knowledge (lets face it, I bet more than a few of us have thought about writing an ATC type book). And good luck to you if/when you start your consultancy.

However, it has sparked off a good debate and I do hope any wannabes reading these fori are intelligent enough to do their own research.

cheers all
VL

I concur with VectorLine.

I got also got through the selection process by doing pretty much the same as Vectorline. I had no aviation background at all and the preparation I did for the interviews/tests was limited to learning the information I had been sent by NATS( this wasn't because I couldn't be bothered to do anything else, merely that I thought that was all they were expecting you to know).
I understand people wanting to be as prepared as possible, however it just shows that as long as you have learnt the info they send, it is possible to pass with that :ok:

I'm glad this came up again, as it was brushed over earlier. A good interviewer will be able to recognise if somebody has been coached. What will their reaction be if they were to ask a candidate how they prepared for the process and were told "Well, I paid some guy to coach me". Place them next to an applicant that prepared themselves, organised their own visits to units and picked the brains of some people on this forum..............basically show initiative and perogative. I know who I would rather give the position to.

quote:
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A good interviewer will spot a coached candidate instantly
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How?

Look lads - we've all had a drink. Every one just settle down, put their chests in and call it a night eh? When I found this forum I was struck by the real helpful nature of it all - and the sense of community from the people on it. It stood apart from most of the other bickering and sniping forums to be found everywhere else on the net. I'd hate to think that someone who was reading up on the career they wanted (as I was/am) would find this and be put off (even a little).

Lets all just agree to disagree eh boys? I mean - many of us just don't get it and find the idea a bit vulgar and/or sad but there's plenty of businesses run like that.

I for one don't get how you'll end up with a Ferrari & a Villa from charging the few unfortunates who can't find this site a tenner for a bit of flannel but hey, live and let live. With a degree and your various licences - not to mention a loving wife (a fact that warms all of our hearts) I would have thought many a business plan would offer better potential but it's not for me to say.

So come on now chaps - keep it light. Keep it friendly, keep it fuzzy.

Anyone else here actually a participant in NATS recruitment????

Id like to think ill spot a coached candidate but who knows!!!

I cant see this putting geuine applicants off, but hey we're all different. Maybe we'll get some success rates from ILS on here in time... we get a very good idea on this site of people who've taken the initiative and asked questions and dug for themselves and who has and hasnt passed.

I think Im pretty good at reading posts and guessing who'll be in and who won't......

Good luck to all though, you'll have a long and rewarding career ahead of you :ok:

You get what you put in... pay peanuts get :mad:

How many people apply for the cadetship every year? Out of all these people how many are invited for a interview? How many are successful? How many more could be successful with a bit of private tuition? Believe me I am not naive nor is my colleague who may be setting this up. It is not being done by "some bloke", it is being done by highly qualified professionals. The market is not for fully qualified qualified atcos or student atcos but merely to help inexperienced candidates attain more knowldge than required to help them to get through the final stages. How many colleges now offer pre training? loads. How many offer interview techniques? loads. If I failed my inteview because someone next to me had paid a small amount of money and passed then I would be gutted, and wished that I had done the same thing.
Unfortunately in a commercial world, businesses are run by money. In my view if you want to succeed then sometimes you have to sacrifice. To be the best and get ahead of your peers you have to work harder. To say that all the information NATS send you is enough to pass the interview is incorrect. When you get better candidates with more knowledge at the interview then these are the ones I would employ. Also means less failure rate at the college for NATS.
Rgds
ILS 119.5

Ah yes, the actual cost of all this. Pray tell, just how much will a small amount of money actually be, in this business driven world?

Rubbish. What an insult to every applicant that has got through. Candidates for decades have been passing assessments. These very self motivated people have prepared themselves, got off their backsides and studied and arranged for unit visits.........themselves. And, as has been repeated several times, it's not just the knowledge required for the interview. Funny thing aptitude tests. I believe NATS policy is to allow applicants 3 attempts at the process. As much as I hate to say it, people unfortunately are still unsuccessful having sat the aptutude tests twice, thus actually knowing the format and contents. Why? The answer is simple.

As an aside, I would be very curious as to what NATS HR and upper management would have to say about the whole matter.

Well I'm sorry to say that times change. The commercial world is business, and if there is an opportunity for someone to grasp and to make a business out of it then so what. I'm finished with this debate now. Good luck to my colleague, and hard luck to all the pessimists.
Rgds,
ILS 119.5

Ladies and gentlemen, we now get to the bottom of it all. This is obviously what our intrepid businessmen see their targeted customers as..........a fast buck. When legitimate questions and concerns are raised by those in the profession and start hitting a little close to home, dummies are spat out and no further debate will be entered into.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

BINGO... We get the truth.

So,would anyone consider paying this "highly professional" outfit their hard earned for this money driven, atitude problematic nonsense???

ILS says they (and I assume this is the old Ive got a friend routine) are highly qualified, but they havent listed their training and physcological qualifications to give them "the edge" that they claim to offer paying customers.

Aptitude tests are just that, aptiude is ability and potential - can this be taught? If someone isnt cut out for a task can they be miracled into it? Maybe ILS can give me the ability I need to play football for England? Or does having a house and car only qualify him elsewhere to teach???

I think this subject is nearly closed, and I didnt see the results of the feasability study the thread poster wanted!!!

But then we maybe dont have the skills of our esteemed friend...

;)

Now, now Fidgell. As happened in the original thread about this, that would actually border on advertising, and I'm sure Danny would be happy to take HIS money for the privilege.

Both sides of the discussion have been put forward, and ultimately it is up to those who would think about paying for such a thing to make that choice for themselves. ILS has said he doesn't want to play anymore, and I'm betting it is, as you say, because we didn't "see the results of the feasability study the thread poster wanted"

I think it would be useful though just to bring this to the top of the forum every so often so people who may have heard about this little business venture can read what others in the industry think, and just maybe what to expect from it. And to remind them they don't have to and shouldn't have to pay for help.

Check this out

www.inflighttraining.co.uk

:rolleyes:

Check this out

Price = 125 pounds!!!!!!

(plus an additional 25 pounds for the guide book)

Uh humm....................

ATC applicants don't have to and shouldn't have to pay

(Hands up all those successful applicants that did)

And I'll let you in on a little hint. Those are certificate courses, and look to be an excellent idea, but they don't guarantee you a job now do they. Sure, they're something that can be added to a resume.

Once again though, you're glossing over the whole aptitude testing and personality testing side of the application process. To be a controller, you must have an aptitude for the job.


Remember saying this?

Really?

Coaching
 

Hi all.

I've read this thread with some interest. I passed through the recruitment process first time this year. I'm due to start CATC soon.

Coaching is a thorny subject. I didn't have this site at the time of the process so I relied on NATS provided info.

I learned it all to give me the confidence in the interview. Much of it didn't come up but I think the interviewer(cool guy by the way) quickly caught on to the fact that I knew my stuff and was pretty headstrong. He then began to ask me things I knew almost nothing about (weather etc). I knew he was trying to throw me but I stayed positive, cooperative and constructive.

At the moment I'm gearing up for the college. I take some comfort that I've passed tests and interviews which show I'm suitable. I'm not saying that coaching is cheating but I don't know if i'd feel that comfort knowing that I'd gone about passing the interviews in possibly a different way than was meant if you know what I mean.

Seven months since passing and now this is becoming real I'm looking with interest at the drop out rate at the college and why. Is it people who've worked had and just don't have the aptitude or what. Although I do know of people who washed out over the last few years who sounded a bit mad for it. Guess there's no cert answer.

Read in the independant though that only 1 from every 120 valid applications is successful through the recruitment process.

I'm sure many people get through first time. I though didn't have any perception in my achievement. Reading this forum has changed this a little.

The recruitment process wets the candidates appetite for the job if I had been unsuccessful and applied again would I consider some coaching as a backup. WHO KNOWS

Wow!

£125 for a certificate?

I notice that assessment is by written assignment.
They send you the documentation, you read it and then they send you some assessment questions. You wouldn't dream of referring back to the notes would you? Looks like paying for a qualification to me.

I believe this is set up as a 'training' course with 'qualifications' because a) they probably get subsidies to provide learning courses and b) Is it legal advertise as 'how to pass an airline selection process'

As an aside I see that their certificate in airline and airport passenger service agent skills and certificate in airline and airport conflict management have exactly the same content.

Do you get 2 for the price of one then? or more likely - one for the price of two!?

<ahem>

I'm a current trainee, and having read all of the above I have to say - the interviews etc are the easy bit! The training is tough (surely SOME of you remember??!!), and requires aptitude and commitment and serious hard graft. If you can't pass the interviews/ tests, the chances are you won't be able to hack it. In which case, paying for coaching would be a waste of money anyway...

N;)

:E ;)

Remember, with no guarantee. And it looks like most of those courses are aimed at people in the industry already (aside from the first one).

OK maybe not finshed yet as such a good debate.
Have you seen the books on aptitude testing? There are a few.
If so many pass the aptitude tests then why do they fail? Surely if the aptitude testing is that good then students would not fail.
To go back to my original thread, the so called training is not to guarantee any pass at all. But to give prospective candidates a far greater knowledge of ATC than the suggested reading. Therefore this knowledge should give the candidate an advantage over someone else who has only read the minimum required.
I would personally employ a person who has gone further, (using whichever method), to obtain the knowledge required to get a job. It shows determination to succeed.
Many years ago a company called "Aviation Foundation Training" was formed, working out of the old Bournemouth Airports Directors House. This was run by a CAA assistant. The company had a better success rate than the college. The only reason was that people were paying for it and there was more attention payed to the students.

ILS you asked how a professional experienced interviewer would spot a coached candidate. Easily, I have done it myself. Can I explain how? No, not really, I guess that if you are good at what you do, you can spot them... I guess you could call it aptitude!

You have not answered at least one of the questions posed here... how could anyone charge for a visit to a NATS unit?

Also - how much would this service cost? What are your (or your "friends") qualifications? Can you guarantee success? Can you measure added value?

I shall await your answers with interest

And if I had 2 candidates under consideration, and I knew one had gone out and researched their preparation themselves and the other had simply paid someone............I know which one I would employ.

Come off it. That is just grasping at straws. There are so many variables in the training process from day one right up to validation day, it is a foolish question indeed. And infact, one could even point you statement at what you propose. Your little business may get people through the application process and a seat in the college...............hmmmm.


You're beginning to talk in circles here. It's been established on several occasions that up till now applicants have prepared themselves. From some of the PMs and emails I personally have recieved, these people are already highly motivated and not just doing the bare minimum. Even reading through some of the threads that appear here, they have a desire to achieve their aspiration of attaining a training slot. You have admitted viewing your whole enterprise as a business you want to make a quick buck from. You keep waving this "higher quality" applicant flag. That is an insult to anybody who had already gone through the process off their own back and achieved what they set their sights on......themselves.

Yeah looks like ILSs first idea of fininshing with this thread was a better venture than this one.....

The course at Bournemouth IS difficult, the dropout rate reflects this. Make no bones about it, you will not succeed without hard graft.... but it is worth it and those with the aptitude will get there. After all it is not a job to do if you cannot do it!!!

However, maybe there is a certificate one can buy to disprove this!

:p

The interviews are designed to test aptitude, not knowledge.

Personally, I would employ someone who demonstrated a calm temperament under pressure, showed an ability to think laterally to solve problems and was able to multitask, regardless of their level of knowledge of ATC or determination to succeed.

If those skills and abilities were missing, but the candidate had an encylopaedic knowledge of ATC, I'd show him or her the door.

Thought I would bring this back to the top just as I'm wondering if anyone out there at the moment has seen/used/thoughts

(I'm not trying to get the debate going again as I think we pretty much covered that)

Well believe it or not my colleague is already helping future students with advice, guidance and atc tuition. I cannot divulge any of the costings as I do not know but I'm sure these people will have a better chance of passing the technical interview than others. I agree with many of you in the fact that most things can be researched but how do you know what to research if you don't know the business. Also please bear in mind that this is not "some bloke" giving the information. He is a fully qualified ATCO with 20 years experience.

Sorry forgot to add, if you buy a book on ATC then the Author makes money, why buy a book when you can get up to date information from a professional person. The CAA reccommends reading these books which provide outdated info.

:rolleyes:

so why mention it then

Go and read what I posted again. :rolleyes:

I was asking if anybody out there had seen or used the "uh-hum" service and their thoughts on it.

Doesn't matter people are paying for advice and instruction. If you want to sit and pontificate from Canada then that is up to you. If you want to slag people off for trying to build a business then that is up to you. Regardless of what your inexperienced brain says my colleague will earn and make a good business.
If you work in Canada then concern yourself with what goes on in your country not in the UK. You have made the decision to leave the UK so go and do not interfere with UK matters.

Wow. Mr Parinoid. At what point since I brought this back to the top have I "pontificated" or slagged anyone? It was a genuine question asking for genuine input. As there have been 6 months passed, and we've quite a few people who have come on the forums asking questions about getting in, I was curious had anybody found it beneficial or otherwise. As to this point there are no replies other than your little bleat, I'm taking it that nobody that comes on here has.

Me thinks you're protesting a little too loud. You're just rehashing your crap from earlier and resorting to childish little insults. The only person who deserves slagging is you for making an ass of yourself. :rolleyes:

"parinoid" is spelt "paranoid. Education helps you spell, knowledge helps you teach. This is not a touchy subject for myself but trying to aid a friend starting a business. If it is not for you then farewell. If you do not have the brain to run a business then OK. Please keep up the slagging off for my colleague but it will not work. Success is determined by desire and he has the desire. If Canada is such a great place to work then why are we not all there? I went through the college in the early 80's and then went back to instruct for a short while. I may have even taught you. My experience is second to none, my views are my own.

ILS, Jerricho has NOT slagged anyone off, the only unprofessional comments on this thread come from your own direction. If nobody else has your amazing business brain then I bow down before your superiority..... now I ask a question,

Would anyone pay somebody like this to impair their "superior knowledge" you may rely on for the once in a lifetime opportunity to attain the career of your dreams?

PM me potential candidates and I shall impart my "inferior" knowledge and "lack of business brain" for free. After all what do I know Im only an ATCO (and occasionally involved in ACTUALLY conducting interviews).

Some people are willing to help you, others just want to help themselves. No wonder Jerricho left!!!:)

ILS, you will have to excuse my spelling. Although, if that's the only premise you have to launch yet another silly little attack, then you're just making a bigger ass of yourself.

(BTW what is this bug up your ass about Canada? Where have I mentioned this AT ALL in this thread.) :rolleyes:

You obviously have your view, and seeing as you seem to be referring to previous posting, so do others as has been discussed, hence ONCE AGAIN I draw attention to the fact that I was asking for input without reference to earlier debate.........why don't you listen (with all that experience). Please stop defiling this thread any longer until you have actually read and understood the question.

(I don't think you were one of my instructors in the college. They were all far to intelligent to be coming out with the garbage you are)

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread. As you all know I agree with paying for ATC preparation. It is not up to us to decide who wants to pay or not to pay for it. If someone wants to pay then that is up to them. If someone wants to do their own research then that is up to them. I would not be able to tell if any candidate had been privately trained or done their own research. Good luck to all that apply. Oh and by the way I would not employ people who cannot spell, it is a sign of bad education.

Id employ someone more professional and with nicer manners.....

:)

I agree with ILS, what is wrong with his mate giving professional advice and tuition and getting paid for it. The problem with the aviation profession at the moment is that it is a lowly profession. We as professionals should make it as good as it was rather than undermining it.

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