Airservices Australia recruiting
 

Looking for applications for regional towers from experienced ATC's.

Job details|Airservices

Pardon me if I seem too ignorant for you but can anyone explain what ASA
mean by "Air Traffic Management Systems used with (current) licence" ?

I am guessing Eurocat or similar experienced persons.

I applied for the regional tower positions and my application status changed to "Application under review" shortly after submitting(around 30 October) but about 2 days ago it changed back to "Application received" which i find odd. I hope my application was'nt misplaced:suspect:

Perhaps the grammar checker wasn't working on the 30th of October..

TT

Recruiting again for international applicants. Positions available at all locations. Closes 20 July.

Job details|Airservices

Hmm....bad timing for me! I hope this will become a regular recruitment strategy in the future........

airservices recruiting foreigners
 

to all you guys/gals who are thinking of applying OR have applied and been accepted

I think it is important for you all to know that you are all being employed at the expense of an Australian citizen. To be honest its bloody disgusting, because the US, UK, and most if not all of Europe do not allow foreigners to be able to apply for jobs that a national could fill.
Before you say it yes, Germany did for while, but they actually could show they had a real shortage.
In Australia we don't, in Airservices case they are employing foreign nationals under 457 visa rules and some other visa bull**** rule, that is meant to only be allowed if there are NO locals who are not previously trained and rated there.
Unfortunately the case is that there are quite a number of local Aussie ex ATC employees of Airservices who have been trying to get back in over the last 4-5 years and being rejected by the employer and then hiring foreign nationals to fill the slots, at a far greater expense than to employ a local.
In one case there was one controller who was working overseas and current and he was told that "he was not a good corporate citizen" so bad luck, that's discrimination.
The government seems to turn a blind eye, but that will change soon once the lid is lifted and it will.
It could mean that those on 457 visas could be made to return home once the 2 years is up, If the government has a change of heart.

:mad:

http://www.theytookourjobs.net/wp-co...7_jbqw_400.jpg





I'm one who left but seriously, all the best to all applicants. OZ is short and getting experienced guys is a sensible move. Some blood from the real world can only be a good thing.

PMS said
WOW, what a post. Most ATCs don't care where their colleagues come from, as long as they are competent and easy to work with.

457 visas are used across a range of industries, aviation, mining, engineering. According to the website it mentions that a 457 visa lets a skilled worker travel to Australia to work in their nominated occupation for their approved sponsor for up to four years. 457 visas are a shared risk, a risk if the skilled worker leaves after 4 years, a risk is the skilled worker is asked to leave after 4 years.

​​There is no doubt that the world of ATC is both a closed shop is some cases and opening up in others. OZ ATC numbers are low across the board because of poor decisions made many years ago (scaling back recruiting, effectively shutting the ATC training college) and believing that quantity = quality (in terms of the numbers applying). OZ ATC numbers need to be boosted to cover an ageing workforce, for new services, new Towers, parallel runways at Brisbane, Melbourne and Perth and a transition to a new system (1SKY). And, potentially Badgery's Creek and the prospect of relocating Cairns APP/DEP to Brisbane, Adelaide APP/DEP & Sydney APP/DEP/DIR to Melbourne.

"not a good corporate citizen" - perhaps a period of self-reflection is required. Certainly there have been stories of some former employees giving minimal notice prior to leaving, send nasty "good bye and good riddance" emails.

I would've thought that Australians would be angry about the loss of skilled jobs to foreigners.

The 457 issue and skilled, available, Australians not being hired aside (and a piss-poor defence of that, btw, Sunny)......allowing AsA to get away with not training young Australians into the roles is disgraceful.

I wonder how many Australians with bright, young kids who would be perfectly suited to such a role, would be happy to learn that AsA pays foreigners a relocation of $40,000 to MOVE to Australia? $40grand would pay a lot of young people's airfares to get to a testing centre.

:rolleyes:

It must be that time of month for 'PMS'

Wow Gents, step by step here.

I am one of the "international experienced" who accepted to come half way round the world. And I do understand where these posts are coming from, the subject is also raised at a similar mood back at my country.

Didn't AsA ask for experienced Australian ATCOs in 2011?

Didn't AsA ask for experienced Australian ATCOs for Karratha, Broom and Alice Springs in 2012?

Didn't AsA ask for experienced Australian ATCOs again just a month or two ago?

Doesn't AsA recruit newbies every year?

Now why would they ask for more experienced controllers? Hmm... :ugh: Could it be they still don't have enough?

A number? Sorry to hear, trully. But as bussinesses are run by numbers not people, I'm guessing there's more than just money into these rejections.

The truth is, as was posted earlier in this thread, one doesn't compete against another, but against a standard. You either have it or you don't. And I'm sure the bright, young kids are excellent but perhaps, just perhaps, some are not fit for the job.

As for the $40000 at most, any ideas on how much is A YEARS' training costs to get a new ATCO at year one experience?

Looking forward to meeting you all. And talk it over again.

hiring non aussies
 

howdy ferris and thanks for the backup mate appreciate it.

As for you other tosspots like Sunny (seffer most likely) :yuk: etc. And tyler btw its not that time of the month, mate I am just sick of locals not being given a fair go (you know the Aussie way), if you cant accept that mate then I suggest you FO to some other part of the globe mate.

Plazbot, your an idiot stay out of it.
Its obvious you tools do not understand the ethos of AsA. Its predominately run by RAAFies now, and they do not want people who say no, or say gee I'm not sure about that is that safe etc.

They want YES people, basically they say "here is a pole and we are going to shove it up your a??e hole" and you will all say OK! :yuk:
Thats why they have hired a lot of RAAFies over the years because they are brainwashed into never saying NO and be happy with the crumbs we give you. 'YES SIR YES SIR'
Its the same with foreigners coming here, they have given you a ticket to heaven and they know you will forever be thankful and take it up the arse because of that.
You are all fools if you believe that AsA are looking for the most experienced, they are only looking for yes people, that it in a nutshell.

We used to have one of the safest ATC systems in the world until TFN and the american hack before him were CEO's, and then everything was done at cost and safety became one of the least priorities and the company blockaded the union at every turn, its disgusting. Struth the new CEO has never been a CEO or executive in the public domain, spent years in RAAF in logistics and a year as commandant of the Australian Defence Force Academy where all the sexual harassment complaints have been raised recently... :confused: so there is a good pedigree NOT.

It will take a major incident to occur before the pollies take a very close look at AsA and say "whoa what the hell has been happening here under our noses all this time .... why werent we told executive management has been white-anting the business for years".

Unfortunately getting in YES employees in will only help to manifest this problem, they need staff who are willing to stand up and say NO when the situation warrants, if anything thats why they dont want to hire any Aussie expats/experienced guys back cause that will cause them problems and if there are problems which cause the executives to not meet their KPI's and benchmarks then they dont get their BIG fat bonuses each year. its pretty simple really.

They only run the adds for experienced aussie controllers as a ruse so they can then run adds for international and say to the government look we cant get enough experienced aussies, we need 457's.

:ugh:

Haha. Bravo on the solid self ownage. Make love, not war.

Fact of the matter is that the Academy is 100% chockers with AUSTRALIAN ab-intios and there is still a shortfall on endorsements gained. The 'experienced ATC' is open to everyone; expats, RAAFies - there have been plenty of ex-ASA employees return to the fold as well..one is instructing there atm if I'm not mistaken.

If you are on the shlt list though I guess it's stiff bikkies.

kpnagidi: Being new to AsA, you probably are not familiar with many of the 'goings on' there. So, step by step
Yes, but AsA has something called the 'black list", an illegal 'phantom arrangement' whereby managers can veto a re-hiring. The reasons for achieving placement on the list are many and varied, from union activity, to being a pain-in-the-arse employee as described by PMS. As to why someone might write a $hit-o-gram on exit? The reasons are legion. Everything from being lied to (who in AsA hasn't been lied to by a manager?), shafted, illegally passed over for a promotion or transfer...as I said, legion. Not being re-hired because of that- petty. How many managers fit that description?
Experienced guys being asked to return and go to Karratha? A year or two might be an expected penance, but experienced guys KNOW AsA.
Until recently, the package for returners was pretty random. Often, the offer was to start again at the bottom. Hardly attractive or fair for someone with 20 years experience. I digress, just trying to give you some perspective. No. Over the last 13 years, they have hired intermittently, much to the chagrin of everybody working the traffic. Some people, 'union agitators' etc. lobbied long and hard for AsA to address it's staff numbers- only to be met with staff cuts, college closure, etc. etc. Continue to drive the existing staff harder and harder to plug the holes (including going to industrial arbitration to be able to have 'compulsory overtime'!), less leave, almost impossible to transfer for career change/enhancement.... and the 'union agitator' leaves and gets placed on the black list. The managers responsible? NOT ONE FCKING BIT OF ACCOUNTABILITY.
Of course there is- and it's usually a case of poor management. As one who is on the list, I can tell you it sticks in the craw when told you are not a 'cultural fit' with an organisation whose CEO, AT THAT MOMENT, is misusing his corporate credit card and is subsequently discovered and fired. Cultural fit? FFS.
I do, actually, have some idea. That's not the point. 457 visas have become necessary due to MISMANAGEMENT. 457 visas not only affect the potential hiring of young Australians into skilled jobs, they undermine AsA itself. Internal movement ( a BIG issue) is stifled. How many existing employees would love a tower gig, or a go at approach? I bet AsA has been telling people the 457s are 'backfill', right? Lol. some things never change.

What's the answer? I could go into a long-winded speech, but I'll spare you. Suffice to say, these issues could be tackled in other ways (maybe have a look at what other countries do for a start). They might cost a little more than the AsA way, but those relocation costs would go some way to mitigate.
Though I am not interested in returning atm (although it would be nice to have the option), I have a child leaving school soon, and the 457 issue really pisses ME off. Politics- yet another method for '**** list' entry.

Well ferris and PMS, being new to AsA I really wouldn't dare comment on things that happened before my entanglement. But I read Hempy's post and it says it all for me.

As for taking ****, you should step in one of those RAAF guys shoes for a year and then complain.

If you're all bitter with previous management or the Goverment, you have the next elections to fix things...Don't take it out on the rest of the world.

And I'm still looking forward to meeting you all (nearly...except the tosspots! Real classy...)

Seems those recruited on the 457 visas are going to get warm welcome..........:ooh:

Have you ever seen pigs at the trough? Some of them spend so much energy trying to block the others that they end up getting the least. Then squeal the loudest.

Sounds like politicians and managers have created this situation that overseas hires are needed? Little bit like why the middle east still needs overseas hires after all this time eh? Bit like why Canada had to hire from overseas for a while back there eh? Guess working there for the big money is different? Guess taking someone's job or training opportunity is OK when it's for your own gain eh?

The circle of life continues. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

I have more witticisms but need to lie down now, so tired......

For all you internationals out there who are thinking of applying, you will all be welcomed with open arms...don't worry too much about tossers like the one who started this thread. Got a bunch of internationals in my group, and all are a pleasure to work with, and great to have a beer with.

No Aussies are having any jobs taken off them, both academies are full to overflowing with young Aussie trainees, all of whom will benefit from the experience you guys will bring with you.

If we look at it the other way, how many Aussie ATC's in Germany right now? (At least a cricket team, some of whom are very close friends). How about the sandpit? Another cricket team right there.

PMS I dunno what your grudge is, my guess is either you, or one of your mates, was told 'no thanks' to be rehired by ASA ('FO overseas' I think was your quote). If that's the case, I'm sorry, but maybe there is a reason behind that?

Experienced Internationals at ASA
 

Not looking to screw any natives over, just curious (for now ;)).

Looking over the info on Airservices careers page; 3-6 months for the recruitment process, another 3-12 months to find a course date.
A possible 18 months is a long time, how short of staff are they?

How long, as an experienced controller, could the field training period be? (Your best guess).

Would one be required to train and validate at a location most needed by AsA or can you apply for a posting at a unit of your choice, be that ACC, TWR, TCU, etc etc?

Cheers

aussie jobs and 457 visas
 

tyler,

obviously you didn't read my earlier post, as I already mentioned Germany, so I covered that off pal.

I suspect you are in your mid to late 20's and airservices is your only ATC employment to date, so therefore NOT very worldly when it comes to ATC as your previous comments have shown.

If you knew anything about the middle east, which you don't, the "nationals" as they like to be called don't like to work much at all. All they want to do is be a manager and sit at a desk and get an expat to make the decisions, simple as that. its a cultural thing and unfortunately for them OR fortunately for expats, westerners fill those gaps, which are actually needed and will still be needed when you and I are both pushing up daisies.

In Oz we DON'T need foreign nationals to fill the void, we have plenty of young aussies who could be trained and plenty of very experienced 15 plus years of ATC experience peeps (in fact way more experience than a lot of these foreigners who are being hired) who would love to come back to AsA but are being knocked back because of the reasons I already mentioned, and as ferris said much mismanagement over the years.
Like you mate I have worked with many international ATC's, probably way more than you ever will and I am not doubting their creds here, just the fact we don't need them.

:ugh:

I can't even remember my 20's and I'm afraid I agree with tyler.

Current employee here. Internationals are and will be welcomed. Work with a few here and they are great. They arent taking Aussie jobs we simply dont have the people to sit in the seat.

Not my only ATC employ either.

Given the tone and language of the post by PMS I think I can understand why someone may not wish to employ you if that tone would be continued into the professional world.

You do, but for some reason choose to keep ignoring this. As described above, there are several cricket teams just in Germany and the ME alone.
Spoken like someone who truly has no idea about the middle east. :rolleyes:

Leaving aside the large cost of hiring foreigners on 457s (they don't offer Australians $40grand as a sign on bonus :rolleyes: ), none of you have addressed the damage these hirings have on staff movement, or are you all just loaded up on Kool Aid?

I'm not suggesting those accepting the 457s will or should be treated any differently (AsA management incompetence is not their fault).

watching this thread with interest.

yes I agree PMS may a bit OTT but,

Let me ask everyone of you international controllers joining or have joined Airservices, if you were not here and back in your own countries and this was happening in your country, and there were your own experienced controllers attempting to be rehired by your own ANSP, and there were plenty of them to fill more than whatever void may be there, would you be happy with that state of affairs???:confused:
I bet you wouldn't, and even more so if it was one of you or even one of your kids wanting to break in to ATC but foreign nationals being hired instead, how would you feel??
Have a good hard think about it, and I bet I know what the answer will be. :O
Don't be too hard on pms as his point is very valid don't you think despite the way he made it.

Those applying must beware that the facility you are promised may not be the one you are sent to. It happened to me and needless to say I left. There are some pretty unpleasant places to work in that company.

duane sounds like you may be an ex RAAFie, if so then no further explanation required if that's the case. If foreign national well same again and thanks for stealing a locals job.

This is discrimination from Airservices and its as simple as that. Up till now they have been able to get away with it but sooner or later the game will be up.

For any overseas controllers reading this thread, understand that we aren't all like those posting here.

Final words from me here.

Thank you all for the critisism and thank you all for the support. It's the attitude that bugs me (tosspots, idiot,:yuk: ...)

from ASA Workforce Plan 2013-2020
Workforce demographics
The average workforce age for the ATC group is 44.5, with 50 per cent of the group aged 45 years and over.
[By 2016/17, ATC Group could potentially lose up to 28 per cent of existing employees (approximately 325) to resignations (7 per cent) and retirements (21 percent).]
By 2019–20, ATC (Group) could potentially lose up to 46 per cent of existing employees (approximately 600) to resignations (14 per cent) and retirements (32 per cent).
A continual intake of 80 ATC trainees per year.

And we all know we'll be lucky to get 50 rated, probably closer to 40.

Being very optimistic we might cover attrition but where is the "bow wave" to allow training for the new system? Being realistic we're easily 100 short and probably plenty more over the next five years.

For some attempting to return the "corporate citizen" excuse is just short-sighted spitefulness. But for better or worse some probably burnt their bridges a little too well and have no chance.

It's really hard to see how 20 or even 50 overseas controllers hired in the next five years is doing Aussies out of jobs. Not unless AsA more than doubles the ab initio training intake and that just ain't gonna happen.

I do agree with Ferris that there is an impact on staff movements, but SDE has an impact too (no incentive for a manager to release staff to another manager) as does the general shortage.

Fortunately the Aussies, New Zealanders and other nationalities that have come to work beside me in the UK have been more warmly welcomed. It's a global village mate, like it or lump it.

to all who have been reading this thread,
this is my final post on this topic.

my intention was not to offend any international hires or potential hires to AsA, so apology if that's what occurred.

The point I was trying to make and encourage discussion (I am very passionate about this - no apology there), was that as missy pointed out with the stats is that AsA is very and will be very short. There are plenty of ex AsA very experienced staff who want to come back which would help ease their shortage and future shortage issues, short term.

Additionally as pingouin pointed out the "not a good corporate citizen or cultural fit" excuse is not only "short sighted spitefulness" but from where I stand also discrimination and illegal under Australian law.

I want it on record that if AsA was to rehire all the so called problem children exp controllers back that it will not be enough to curb the tide of departures, but the fact is if this could be done and the locals were looked after first, I know the local rehires would be more than happy to welcome overseas controllers into the fold, but it has to start by looking after aussie citizens first.

vent complete, sorry to those I upset :sad:

Those so called "unpleasant" places are some of the best places you will ever work (and live)

Eons ago, 25 or more extremely experienced Australian Approach and Tower Controllers went to work in Hong Kong for the opening of the new airport.
Most had asked for 3 years leave without pay and were denied.
MisManagement thought we wouldn't go, and got a very rude shock when we did.
No thank you for 20 years of dedicated service.

Where I worked we were told " If you go, you WILL NEVER AGAIN work in Australian ATC.

It seems you all knew the deal then.

Don't bitch about it now.

What were ASA supposed to do for three years while you were having nice time in honkers? Employ people and sack them when you deemed it a good time to return or just shut down a few towers and mothball them until you'd eaten enough dog?

Rule3
Yes, and I understand that ASA sent a senior manager to Honkers to stem the tide. It didn't work.

ANSPs had unwritten "no poaching" agreements but this has changed over the last decade or so, especially as some ANSPs do little or no training of ab-initios.

I'm surprised that Airservices haven't paid Airways to do their "top-up" training (to guarantee 100 rated ATCs each year) and/or a "loan" scheme of rated controllers working in Australia for 3-5 years.