Spanish ATC "Work to rule"
 

Mods please don't shift this to "ATC issues" as this affects all pilots flying through spanish airspace.

Any of you who have been flying through Spanish airspace this last week may well have noticed that you are being denied short cuts either without explaination or (if challenged) by lame and unpalpable excuses.

It seems AENA have made moves towards selling off the ATC service and the controllers are now in fear of their cushy packages. Their chosen "action" is to deny all aircraft short cuts forcing us all to fly the flight planned route.

Now, I don't have any major issues with trying to take some control over your destiny but in this particular case do they really think AENA will change their decision as a result of this response? AENA aren't suffering (except as dwellers on this deteriorating planet of ours) and the only direct "victims" of this action are the Airlines who are having to pay more now for fuel. How is that going to help their cause? :ugh:

Finally there is the cost to the environment and the waste of our ever depleting supply of oil............

If you're reading this you Numpties "Sort yourselves out!" :=

As a quick question why do you think you are entitled to a direct route? They are at the discretion of the controller and should not be counted on when you are flying around. Because the controller doesn't want to is the best excuse for not getting one. He/she doesn't have to provide directs, they are not part of the mandate of being a controller. We are there to make sure you get to your destination safely. End of. All they are doing is doing their jobs as laid down in their procedures, without all the extra stuff that you seem to think should be god given. :ugh:

I don't think the action will work mind.

....... and as a quick answer - "God there's always one eh?"

As a longer answer - where above did I imply that I or any of my colleagues believe they have a "God given right" to a short cut? I didn't. End of!

Because a controller doesn't want to is the best reason of all??? My God are you for real? So it doesn't depend at all on why he doesn't want to then? Like just because he's a frustrated failed pilot perhaps??? That'll be ok then would it?

The ONLY reason not to is safety! Jeeeeesus! :ugh:

In the same way that when my postman was recently on strike in the UK and I didn't notice that the level of service he was providing was any worse than his normal s**t level, I don't think Spanish ATC "acting up" will result in any degradation of service at all.

1985 They certainly arent using any discression at all and its got sweet fa to do with saftey.

Extremely annoying flying the full departure out of relativley quiet airports...pissing away fuel for no reason.

Thank God, no more radar vectors from the Spanish - we are all safer as a result :-)

well it would explain a thing or two about my last few flights into spain...

btw: I have always found spanish most helpful...:ok:

sorry to spoil your theory
 

Had several directs today from Luton to South of Spain, and back......

Never asked, just given.

sorry

glf

Or maybe they've just read this?

http://www.eurocontrol.int/dmean/gal...hure_Apr09.pdf

Having spent more time than usual in Spanish airspace last week, I must surely have seen the worst ATC service in the civilised world with the addition of unnecessary bloody mindedness. They are pathetic - I was even denied a climb to a more economical level because it wasn't in our flight plan. I should have pointed out that descending at more than 2500 fpm wasn't in our flight plan either, but we happily obliged them.
I never thought I'd say this, but I found myself looking forward to the earliest possible transfer to the French.

Directs aren't going to save the planet and I never understand the glee some pilots show when they see the ETA drop by 2 minutes...on a 5 hour sector. IMHO there are much more important/useful things to twist knickers over...

It is amazing how much weather avoidance one has to do in Spain these days!

It wouldn't save the planet but the saving can be quite substantial.
My airline operates 1400 flights a day, a 2 minute saving on each one of them would save approximately 1400*2*40(40kg a minute on a 737)=112000kg of fuel.
It's worth trying!
I do not understand why we even have to ask for directs?
If it's available it should be offered especially if the capacity is there to coordinate it with other atc providers.

I hear you. That last point's another reason I don't bother asking...unless the chap to the left of me asks me too!

So what happened to the bit about maintaining an expeditious flow of air traffic?

Then we have all this (rightly in my opinion) about the environment and saving the planet's resources so shouldn't this feature in part of the remit? Wouldn't like the New Age luvvies to hear about this or the protesters that closed Stansted for half a day a while back!

Er....here?

Controllers don’t have to give you an explanation or an excuse that you consider “palpable”.

I'm not commenting either way on whether the Spanish controllers are correct in their actions.

I'm not used to any mentality other than being expeditious. Where I work it's automatic that you will be on the most direct course possible, considering the workload and other circumstances, so there's no need for pilots to request directs.

You don't.

hm,

That's funny,how posts,which doesn't affend anyone are deleted. well done:D:ugh:

This is where you implied that you think you have a right to a direct. Just because a controller won't and has given you a reason that you don't like, doesn't mean that you have to come on here and slag off a group of controllers who are doing something that they think might help them in retaining their jobs/pay/condtions etc.

Why shouldn't people fight to preserve what they already have? If your employer was talking about reducing your terms and conditions wouldn't you fight them? Its not like they've gone on strike. Which would piss you off even more i suppose? I can see the logic behind it. By not giving directs they cause the airlines to fly the routes and burn the fuel that they should have already planned on. Its not hurting anybody. You and the airlines should not be banking on ATC to help you save fuel by banking on getting directs. The airlines will then put pressure on AENA to help them out and the controllers then get what they want.

No it doesn't depend on why he doesn't want to. He just doesn't. There could be a million and one reasons why he doesn't want to. From "last time i sent something there i got a bollocking from the other sector for doing that" to "the mil is active" to "i've just been really busy and i can't be arsed to arrange that".

The point is once the controller has said no then stop sodding asking. If i can't do it first time the chances are that either i won't be able to do it all or i'll do it later without the need to be "promted" again. Knowing most of my collegues the more you ask the less chance you'll get.

I give directs, i like giving directs, i will give directs most of the time even when i know that if i'd kept it on the flight planned route my life would be easier. What i don't like is being badgered for them, i'll try my best but if i can't then i can't, usually i'll try to tell you why (which i don't have to) but sometimes i'll just say "negative". Except it and move on.

Sorry for the mild rant but i've just finished a night shift sending aircraft on 600 mile directs all over europe.

Dear 1985
ATC in Southhampton (London?) is very different to Seville!

Recent direct to ABBOT
 

This was a surprise direct from LON as we crossed the south UK coast in the Shanwick overhead.

After recovering myself from the floor, I asked "Howabout direct LUT"...

"Dont push it" was the reply....

Was this the 1st of the month special...

glf

Shanwick overhead - that's hell of a big aircraft!

Now then, from the eurocontrol broschure:

The guys at Eurocontrol tried it before will try it again - I this thing as part of their campaign against quick air traffic. Safety as an argument will win hands down every time, but in reality it is about staffing. Some of the national control agencies have squeezed the personnel to the limit and beyond. Apparently they are unable toget their act togehter.

Which I will do for safety or ecoreasons, the winds and weather systems often just don´t stay in their IFPS approved ways.

Oh my god, shocking, there delays or ealier departures. PATHETIC.
Go and tell the pax, refueller, handler, apron controller, airport planners etcetc. I want to be home on time, not my fault.

Again, wind, WX, ever changing loads etcetc.

Aha, badbad controllers, givin us directs. We even more bad, requesting them.

If Eurocontrol continues to work their 'Blocksystem' as the rail road does, there is little flexibility in the system. Flexibility is provided by the PEOPLE controlling and their assistents. The grand scheme is: less and less people, therefore higher profits, and if our electronic gagdets cant give us the flexibility, lets make the system rigid, so that the friggin clients do what we want them to do. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Brussels is out of control, clearly.

1985 - No-one's having a go at controllers worldwide. Personally I never ask for directs in UK airspace because I know that you will do your very best for us and get us the most expeditious and commercial routing that you can.
Spain, however, is a very different matter even at the best of times. As an example, I regularly have to call twice or even 3 times to get a response on 1st contact, have heard pop music playing in the background (from the ATC end) and usually can't understand half of what's being said.

In my little euro pilot world: there are 3 places where I sit back fat dumb and happy knowing that ATC has worked out a grand master plan for me…
Thank you ATCOs of: UK, Denmark, and Maastricht… rest of Europe not so much… some are almost as good as the above 3 some very far distanced…
This is never more evident than when crossing the Irish sea westbound…sadly you simply have to wonder what goes on…

Are you talking high level or arriving into Dublin?

No..simply keep your EOBT up to date and you won't be the straw that breaks the camels back. The sectors have a flow rate which is safe and expeditious.If you decide you can depart any time before or after your EOBT and you are joined by a couple of others the sector can be severely overloaded with all that that entails.

From a pilots perspective it seems most of the “funny stuff” in Ireland starts at low level and works its way up... :}

And it is certainly not limited to Dublin...:sad:
Btw. this is not about complaining, it is just the way it appears from my seat...

Striker - that sentence does not imply I believe we have a god given right at all, simply that as reasonable people we are entitled to a reasonable response to a request. That is right and proper and respectful! If you can't see that and apply that automatically throughout your day then I am afraid you have a problem........ I consider that to be an integral part of being professional.

See above!

It seems to me that some controllers are using this thread to get some more general stuff off their chests and the thread is drifting into an "us" and "them" situation.

1985 - I don't ask for directs more than once, I don't ask for anything unreasonable and if a request is rejected when I know its down to some purile "action" then yes I would like to tease that out of the controller. I don't usually ask for reasons why not but this situation is very frustrating for those of us operating throughout Spain. Are you really not able to see that?

As for preferring them NOT to go on strike - I'd far rather they did! That way, we simply don't fly, the wastage doesn't occur and we don't get wound up when we are supposed to be working together as a TEAM.

Finally, we can all play the game. Yes we can all request headings for non existant weather, opposite runways for performance reasons etc etc. Who wins? No-one that's who.

If you think companies leaning on AENA will get them to change their decisions then you better think again. The spanish don't like being bullied. I guess nobody does but the controllers in Spain mostly come from the same gene pool as the management so they won't bend to pressure IMHO.

No, this is a futile situation which can only serve to frustrate all who come into contact with it who choose to their job to a high standard.

Wing Commander Fowler - a question which has not been asked yet, which surprises me...

Could you provide real evidence of the above, or is it just hearsay or supposition on your part because you have not received a short cut?


Also, you claim that you do not think you have a God-given right to a shortcut:
and later on you state
which seems totally at odds with the statementwhich states you have challenged answers... so you don't ask twice, you just argue on R/T (professional:hmm:) if you don't get one?

Just asking, because your very own statements contradict themselves... plus you provide no evidence that this is an industrial action as opposed to belief in your head... particularly when one reads a follow up post from Gulfstreamaviator (post number 8)...

Maybe your attitude (you are the one that mentioned "lame" and unpalpable") comes across on the RT (does your request sound like a demand?) and this is preventing you from getting shortcuts form the

Of course i can see its frustrating. Not getting something that you are used to getting is frustrating, not getting post for a week was frustrating but i understood why the posties were on strike, i didn't go around calling them purile and numpties and tell them to sort themselves out. The spanish controllers are trying to defend their livelyhoods and protect their pay and conditions. I actually don't agree that what they are doing is the way to do it but if it works....

It might work who knows, it would certainly work here in the UK. I don't know the in and outs of AENA's relationship with the airlines but i'd imagine Iberia would have some pull both within AENA aswell as the spanish government, and i'd think that other companies would have some pull in respective governments around europe who would then lean on the spanish who would then lean on AENA. We are all european after all ;).

Why are you getting wound up by flying your flight planned route and burning the amount of fuel that you are supposed to burn? I really don't get that. You shouldn't be expecting short cuts. Do you carry less fuel than you should because you are expecting to get sent direct?

I don't know about you folks, but I have a God given right to ask for directs!

Especially in a fee-based system! Isn't it service we pay for?

And for all you high and mighty controllers out there: you're there because of airplanes (and some of the dumba.. pilots that come with them), not the other way around.
afterall, there are non-radar procedures for airplanes to follow, but don't think there are no-airplane procedures for controllers?!

Now, I gotta go see my therapist, cause today we get to talk about controllers who refuse to give me directs!

Another thing

you're logic is twisted. I standby my statement that I don't ask for directs more than once. Nowhere do I contradict that. Asking why (which I have only done in this recent period) does neither constitute another request nor an argument.

Ridiculous! How is that an argument?

1985

The amount of fuel I am supposed to burn? Supposed as directed by who? I actually have a duty to burn as little fuel as necessary, that's what I am supposed to do....... Do you guys not have a duty to be as efficient as possible? If not then its no wonder your distant relatives are behaving in this manner!

W-C-F

Still waiting for your proof that this is not just in your head and that it is official action by Spanish ATCOs...

Meanwhile, the tone of your posts really does you no good, and your grasp of facts governing shortcuts are poor.

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Like just because he's a frustrated failed pilot perhaps??? That'll be ok then would it?

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Why does his reply make him a frustrated failed pilot? I'm an ATCO and I wouldn't want to be an airline pilot for all the tea in China :zzz:.
Horses for course really. Of course, you're basing that statement on your apparent belief that pilots are superior to ATCOs (ex RAF aircrew are we??)

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The ONLY reason not to is safety! Jeeeeesus!

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There are numerous reasons for saying no to a shortcut, try reading the link from Gonzo.

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Numpties

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lame

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unpaplable

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cushy packages

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God there’s always one eh?

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when I know its down to some purile(sic) "action" then yes I would like to tease that out of the controller

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not very professional use of RT eh?

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the controllers in Spain mostly come from the same gene pool as the management so they won't bend to pressure IMHO

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:=

A very balanced set of quotes from a great

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TEAM

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player :hmm:

unfortunately act700 seems to be from the same mould

Now there's a valid argument... not.

There can be a ton of reasons not to give a shortcut but an agenda with your employer isn't one of them. If anything, you want the airlines, or in this case the crews, supporting you. You as in an ATCO.
I have sympathy for the feelings of the OP, not so much for the manner he expresses them.

There are at my airport, stopping those pesky vehicles from infringing the runway or doing something on the taxiway or apron that they shouldn't be doing!!

Thank you Garp - please judge me by my original posting. Anything after that is less transparent as it could otherwise be as a result of some post deletion by Mods. Much of my responses are just that - responses to other postings which have sought to goad.

As for Anotherthing - this is something you may not be aware of too. The comment regarding failed wannabe pilot is a direct response to someone suggesting I may be a failed wannabe atco - now deleted. So, this was posted tongue in cheek.
With regard to substantiating the whole thing - I don't feel the need to do that. I didn't find it in a paper or on the internet, I have it direct from a spanish controller. Any further investigation is yours if you feel a real need.

Oh yes and "ex RAF aircrew are we?" says enough about you.......... :=

Nope , pilots don't have a god given right to short cuts.As far as I am concerned , I've been trained and now train student ATCO's following this very simple rule : make use of directs when it suits YOU.

You can always challenge me when/if I deny your request for a direct.
You might get an answer , but not necessarily.

And quite frankly , I don't think I care too much whether the answer you might get satisfies you or not.:ok:

No it wasn't, it was posted in direct response to my first post and at no point have i suggested that you are a bitter failed ex-atco trainee. What got my goat was the faintly condescending and rude manner of your orginal post.

Done that.

Yes there are but then you'd just be moaning about how inefficient they are and how they cause you to burn fuel you don't need to.

As directed by your FPL?? When you plan your route do you not do it with the intention of actually flying that route? And then upload enough fuel to fly that route regardless of wether you expect shortcuts or not? I presume that you would have some idea of the amount of fuel that you would expect to use flying the route. So when you fly the route you have planned you can't possibly burn extra fuel because you've already taken it into account (regardless of ATC - i'm presuming you take off and just fly to your destination).

Not a problem, this is a rumour site after all. Facts need not apply. One controllers mutterings obviously means it's company or union policy as far as you are concerned despite other professionals on here stating that they are still getting direct routeings.

As for the other coments, it's strange/convenient that all your derisory comments towards Spanish controllers etc are in response to postings that have been deleted. (That's apart from the slights in your original post,obviously and even though your second post which talks about failed pilots is s obviously in direct answer to 1985's post above it).

As far as I am concerned, if pilot uses RT time to question why a controller does not grant him a direct routeing, it infers that the pilot believes it is his right, otherwise they would accept first answer...

As forprobably a fair assumption on your part... I've not always been a civvy, and not always been on this side of the mic, so I have experience of the attitude that some 'professional aviators' have to other trades; fortunately I never had that trait myself.

Radar707 - to be fair, if it wasn't for aircraft you wouldn't need to control vehicles!! But it might be worth reminding act700 that fully automated aircraft already exist - it's a very long way off for ATCOs.

(though I'd rather not fly in a pilotless aircraft to be honest, regardless of the technology available right now)

Even if the OP was correct, I can see the story now:

As the moderator responsible for most of the deletions referenced above, let me actually, for once, come out of the shadows and dip an oar in.

Firstly, the tone of this thread is only marginally acceptable, starting with the originator. It is being watched, and if it deviates too much from sensible debate to zenophobic/ATCO-phobic or just generally-phobic rhetoric then those posts will go. No debate. Got it?

Second, since there actually seems to be a relevant debate starting to arise out of this thread reference Flow Management, can I refer everyone back to Gonzo's link above, please. Read it before posting. Basically, as pilots, if you are re-filed to avoid a delay DO NOT THEN REQUEST YOUR ORIGINAL FILED LEVEL just because it may be more beneficial in terms of burn/time etc. This is a constant thread that I have heard from talking to ATC supervisors, either on gash visits or TRUCE days.

Now, we all know there are regional differences in ATC, we all know there are industrial differences, just keep the trousers zippered and don't swing your own particular thing in the direction you think everything else should swing. If only the rest of this site would follow suit......

Squid