Maastricht? I can tell you that if you fly east bound at high levels, the only reason you are on a direct is because Rhine Radar had organised it with them before hand. Big call.

I think the big thing that you blokes miss some times is the thank you at the end of the readback. I can tell you it really pis ses the controllers off when you organize a huge direct for a flight, sometimes coordinating with multiple sectors, and then not even receive a "thanks for that" from the people at the pointy end of the big metal tube. Ryan air is especially bad and so I think most won't go to the effort for them unless it helps with the traffic.

WCF I am a failed controller who became a pilot instead. Controllers I expect will feel insulted being referred to as failed pilots.

I have never and will never ask for directs and instead wait until I am offered. Only the controller(s) know the full picture with regard to traffic separation. I applaud controllers who deny expectant pilots direct routings. It is their decision and their's alone; neither should they have to explain their reasons.

However, I would expect a polite explanation if a controller intentionally deviated us from our flight planned route to a waypoint that we hadn't planned.

I wanted to stay out of this hoping someone would explain the rationale , but since no one did so far , let me have a go.

The “ good old days” are slowly going away and in today and future ATM world the “ client” of ATC is no longer the pilots , but the Airlines , the “ Operators” as Eurocontrol call them .

What hurts the Airlines today are the delays ( or so they hammered Eurocontrol and the FAA ) and they apply pressure for ATM to be more efficient and cheaper. The answer is developing capacity to eliminate delay and allow airlines to fly their preferred requested profiles. For maximizing en-route capacity , flight plan adherence is the key . And there you get what Gonzo posted earlier.
Just 2 quotes from that plan :
ATC ( i.e. the controllers) should do their best to accommodate the requests of the Airlines which now makes the FPL. In many Airlines the pilots have little choice in the FPL made . The problem comes when the flight ( i.e. the pilot on board ) asked for something else ( a direct or a different FL than the RFL) That comes mostly from the belief that the Airline flight plan is just a vague idea of what was needed to get the aircraft airborne on time, and that once in the air , the pilots can get back to direct and optimum FL as they would have filed themselves, as before.

I believe we are in transition phase, where pilots and controllers in today environment are caught between the old need to “ expedite” and the need to give the best service , and the current ATM “ global economic ” view . Slowly but surely the game becomes economic and no longer operational. If it is cheaper for your airline to fly 100 NM more to avoid X country high route charges, and if filing a lower than optimum FL gets you going ½ hour earlier , your airline might choose those options.

So there is no point getting at the other group about who is there for who and if RFL or DCT is a right or a favor. . We both Pilots and controllers have to adapt to a growing economic area where economics are slowly taking over old operational considerations.

Last one about Spain and "the good old days" : For those of you who remember Spantax and the Old under-Franco military-ATC in Falty towers-English done in that time over Spain, Flying there today is a paradise.

1985: To get everyone safely to the destination is the job of the Captain. Not the controller. The controller is responsible for seperating aircraft and ensure an orderly flow of traffic. On the shortcut thing you are right: they are not obliged to give you one.

Yes....but TEAM TEAM TEAM..

Easy solution for OP, change your sphere of operation. Just nip across to the "dark side" of the Med.
No slots, no restrictions, straight line all those pesky bends in the airways ? yep , straight to the end of my airspace.
Wanna fly 10,000 above the FPL level ? up you go boy, no-one else there anyhow.


Delays ? nope, " same day= no delay " , it's all de-stress not distress. :ok:

Not when Maastricht just give the direct without coordinating. :}

Seriously. The Rhein boys and girls out east I find are very cooperative and not too restrictive at all. :ok:

As for the ones further south? They are without doubt the biggest pains in the arse I have to deal with. :ugh:

I don't know why it's like that. :confused: They might even be staffed by the same people.

As for my mentality. I sit down and find out which danger areas are active and which directs we have. From then on, every aircraft automatically gets the best direct possible which is within my control. These directs will not be given only in circumstances where it would cause a conflict or make a traffic situation difficult to deal with. And I am nothing special. Everybody I work with has this mindset.

Definitely a slow go
 

Who am I to think I am entitled to a direct?

Well, of course I am not. Still, I think there are several cues that point to a slow go going on right now in Spain. Departing Palma on the MEROS SID, we never had to fly the entire thing in the past. Even during busy summer time, at a certain point a direct was available. Today it was not, nor was it last week, and we were the only aircraft on the frequency.

First interesting thread on here for a while, although I suggest that the title be changed to reflect the thread drift.

Anyway, my tuppence worth:

In European ops I make a point of asking for short cuts on every flight, and think its fair to state that 80% of my requests are obliged. I would estimate that only 20% of the time ATC beat me to it and offer a direct route.

Generally short cut requests are greeted with "stand by" and I assume that this means a call to coordinate the request. I don't fully understand what goes on behind the scenes in ATC, and I am sure ATC don't fully understand my operational constraints, but I am convinced that short cuts are mostly made available to those who ask. Those who don't ask (and I am not talking USA here, which we all know is completely different), don't get.

I estimated the 20% and 80% figures by the way - but just wonder if by any chance it bears any resemblance to the old adage - 80% of the work is conducted by 20% of the people.

It depends, sometimes you know where the point is, know where it is going to take you and know that the next sector are quite happy with the direct. Othertimes the point is fairly obscure and you've never heard of it, so you have to ask the next sector or unit wether its ok. Sometimes it might involve multi sector co-ordination which takes a while. Every sector will have points that they can send aircraft to the the next one that they know will not upset the next controller or cause a problem for them.

It will also (in the UK) depend on the mil. For example during the week the North Sea sector (S10/11) is restricted by danger area activity north of the airways and by training areas to the south so any directs are very limited. But at night and the weekends we get off-route status for all our traffic which means we can send aircraft all over europe to standard points for some traffic ie BEGOK for EDDF or GMH for EDDM or we juts ask MAAS and we get some wierd and wonderful ones. Half the problem we have is that the further away the point for the UK the less likely it is to be in the system so we don't know where its going to send you. Which can cause problems for separation. Sometimes directs are very useful i think its great watching three aircraft all at the same level going to different points fanning out on the radar.:) Means we have more capacity because other levels are free.

Another point is that sometimes we want to send you to a fix and the pilot isn't looking far enough down the the FMS list of points and will keep telling us its not on their route when we know full well it is. :ugh:

Thank you
 

Sometimes not acknowledging a "direct" is due to some diehard pilot who insists on using "correct" R/T, which of course does not involve "danke", "merci", "obrigado", 'gracias", "grazie", "chokran", "toda", "thanks", or whatsoever.

ATC's help is generally appreciated by the silent majority! Keep up the good work, colleagues.

An interesting debate. Just to throw a little into the mix. Now obviously neighbouring Portugal might not be as busy in some area's as Spain, but I know for a fact that they endeavour to give every commercial and indeed light aircraft the shortest route possible and as far as I have watched them, 95% of the time you enter the system and get a direct to your exit of the area (names of the places escape me).

Now originally the thread pointed to AENA becoming private and the loss of spanish controllers T & C's. Now I don't want my post to be deleted, but I can understand they want to keep their 9*** per month salary and pension. this seems like a valid point, but I haven't seen spanish ATC strike....ahm... at least nothing like their northern counterparts with the curved bay.

One factor noone has explored is the general reluctance to give speed control. One of the causes of this are the pilots of spanish airlines that will remain nameless refusing to accept it. Spain has a very advanced ATC system in place already and at times the controllers situational awareness leaves a little to be desired, planes hopefully slow down on approach!

That said, I am starting to be concerned people have gotten too obsessed with being top of their fuel league table that they are forgetting the art of negotiation. In my brief experience I have been granted short cuts that I didn't even want, however, most situations where a direct is denied as previously stated have a genuine reason.

Lastly did the OP consider the controllers he might have been dealing with maybe didn't know how to explain in plain language why they couldn't acceed to your request? I'm not defending either party here just laying down some topics for further discussion.

Lets continue.... :ok:

eastern wiseguy: apparently you live up to your name ;) But you're right. Should've placed ''ultimate responsibility'' instead of ''job'' there.

Regards
Capriati

Aviator part deux - we live there, we work there almost all of our lives at least for the first and last parts of each rotation and sometimes the complete route. On this much do please trust me its happening exactly as I describe!

Oh and will the idiot who started this whole "failed atco wannabe / failed pilot wannabe" thing please own up to it (if you have the brass) as I'm now getting hate mail from people hehe! Mods can you find that post please?

FOR THE LAST TIME I REPEAT - SOMEONE SUGGESTED I MIGHT BE A FAILED ATCO WANNABE WHICH I REPLIED TO IN KIND!!!!

That post has now been deleted by the mods and so as I have already stated this thread has become very corrupted!

Now I have nothing whatsoever but respect for controllers in general, the spanish now excluded! I am however starting to wonder about some on here now as this is starting to look like a pilot bashing thread giving controllers the ability to get stuff off their chests that's clearly been lingering for some considerable time!

To straighten other things on record - I generally thank controllers for directs, I do not feel I have a god given right to anything. I was not brought up that way.

Now please all, get over your "chips" and please lets get back to a normal disussion.

Its now been proved by one of the "doubters" that action IS going on, I still feel that it is a futile action that no-one will benefit from. There's just massive and damaging waste going on.

Thats my opinion and I am entirely entitled to that no?

Your post number 3 is still there WCF, which makes reference to a controller perhaps being a failed frustrated pilot.....

Yes, it's true MAD are not not offering/granting Directs but the biggest joke about this "work to rule" is that MAD Approach are now insisting on 180 kts at 12nm and 160 kts to 4 nm which is exactly what we've being trying to get for the last few years! Thanks Barajas, keep the work to rule going :D

Kiltie - Good God man, (assumption) can you not read?????

Pilot <3 Controller
 

Hi everybody!
Well, first: I am a pilot, and that (at least for me) means that I love controllers! They aren't just there thanks to us pilots. Well, kinda, but still...
We are supposed to fly our routes, as planned, yup? Yup! Now, if the controller gives us short cuts, yeeaah! we are all happy. But if somebody gives you something for 'free', a gift, or whatever, do you still question that given gift? (Not talking only about aviation here!)
I have been visiting control towers, etc., and it's a mess. I personally would die on a heart attack, and have no hair left on my head, after just one session! And somebody mentioned Sevilla airspace, comparing it with London was it? Well, London=Madrid-Barajas for me. Sevilla is smaller compared to those, so less controller, etc., BUT lots of military aviation and test flying, GA, etc.
What those controller are doing is showing that they are understaffed, without going on strike. How? Directs, shortcuts, etc., helps to keep the flow flowing even better. So, just do your job without favors( <--- directs, etc.) and show in that way how chaotic it can get, with only doing their job, with those extras that they are throwing in for us pilots... for free! (Yes, for free! Because if on those ways something bad happens, they are more screwed then us being on the 'normal' airway!) And even if there is barely or even no other traffic (let's remember: our airplane is not the only one. And apart from airliners, the General Aviation is very(!) important as well!), there are always other flights planned, with there slots, etc. We pilots we SHARE the airspace. I wanna drive my Cadillac off the highway directly into my parking space, without having to pass my house first and then take on the exit #36, then drive back for 5 minutes, etc. But it's not MY highway, it's OURS!!!
The controllers have more to do, than just talking to pilots about instructions, etc.
I really don't understand some guys here. Why all this? Oh, no direct? Okey! Well, he must be busy, or got busted before for a similar action which turned out bad, or got headache and can't focus right now on all directs of all of our airplanes, or is expecting some military exercises, or... who knows? Or better: who gives a damn? If they are 'by the book', well let them do it. That is the NORMAL situation! Don't ask for something, that doesn't belong to you! Of course it's a pain in the a$$, to fly a full Departure in a clear sunny sky, with no traffic, but we are supposed to do that anyways, we just got used to the easy side... too used!Let's do our job then, right?
As for me, I am happy with the controllers, and not only Spain, but all over Europe. Yes, it's kinda different from the US, so what? Good ol' Europe IS different from the US and all the american continent.(Ever been flying in deep Africa?)
Been asked by passengers for shortcuts LOL but I see and understand that, if one does not know 'the world' of it... well, you do the math. Controllers have zillions of reasons for that, and finito! When pilots are on strike, all the people say "oh, why, they don't have no reason for it, but lots of $ and bla bla bla, for just sitting in the cockpit, and bla bla bla".(It's because they don't know our conditions, fears, lifes, our working 'world', etc.)
Let's not take for granted what is just a favor (and what could cost their job if something sh!t comes out of it).
Relax guys, let's do our job with pride, and know that we are all working together(!), and not against each other! (Each side just has his own stories, own life, own reasons, own "world"!).
Ok?

Dear Alfredo tp
You have a lot of good points!
But, Why should’t Africa strive to improve to the professional levels of Sevilla? And why shouldn’t Sevilla strive to improve to the levels of London?

Didn't say that Africa shouldn't improve, it even has to (especially concerning safety issues)!!! But comparing it like saying: "Africa is to Spain, like Spain to the Rest of Europe", dude!!! Spain is as safe as the rest of Europe. And Sevilla is as good as the other european places. What? No Directs? It's even not part of a controllers job! But they do it! Not lately, ok, and that makes acontroller a bad controller? Pretty superficial thought, don't you think? (And those things happen in central, northern, and western Europe as well, sometimes more often, sometimes less, but it does, and we know it!)
I am sure there is always lots to improve, and so all in northern Europe as well, oh yes! But aren't they doing their job? They do, and good! Oh yes!
The point is just that they don't give directs. So what?! They are doing their job! That's why they are bad controllers? NO! We are bad pilots because we complain about BS. We are supposed to fly the way its supposed to be, but we get shortcuts, good for everybody, and we feel better, because we got there earlier! Damn, we are o good, ain't we?! And we even finish our duty earlier, yeah! And when we don't get them, suddenly it's because the controllers are bad! Let's do our job, gents! Oh man, c'mon guys! We need to take our head out of our butt!!! (And yes, me included, most of us!!!) Seriously! :ugh:

Alfredo tp----- I do not think that Wing Commander Fowler is going to agree with you!!

Well, I hope he is not(!) going to agree with me, otherwise there is no sense of this forum. If he agrees with me, then he loses his opinion, and my opinion wouldn't be just mine anymore. (Sounds weird, I know...)
Of course I agree to some extend with him, and even for me it's a pain not to get a direct, when I am up there, and there is not much traffic, etc. around, clear sky, and so on. But that just doesn't mean that any controller is a dumb a$$. They look for theirs, as we look for ours, but we still have to respect each other, and it's not that they are not doing their job (which is not(!) saving gas for the airline company for example!).
We just have to conscious about what is our and their job, and rules, and bla bla bla, and what are kinda favors! If someone just doesn't want to respect and comprehend the others, than (s)he is just selfish, and other things.
So much for professionalism, yup.
Well, anyway, if someone doesn't like the other's job, he can call up after landing, or make a complaint, to Eurocontrol, to the controller's 'base', and to his own company. Or maybe switching seats for a while helps. :E

I tend not to ask for direct routings unless I really need them.
If it's something like......."I'm trying to get back before an airfield closing time which could result in a diversion and 100+ displaced passengers" then I'll ask for as much as I can get away with - generally when ATC are aware of the problem they are very helpful.

It doesn't feel right to constantly ask for direct routings, if it's given then great, if not then we fly the route we're planned for. One thing that I will always consider is how busy ATC are at the time. By asking for a direct routing in a busy airspace it might finally be the straw that breaks the camel's back - if ATC make a mistake because of it well.... 'it's could possibly be me and my passengers who will pay the most for it'.

One thing that does annoy me though is when I'm planned to cruise at say FL370 from Malaga and are given FL310 until leaving Madrid ATC, that's a lot of extra fuel that is not planned for. I'm not sure if it's my company's fault or ATC's but someone must know this info. BEFORE the ETD and it would be safer to receive it before we decide on the fuel !

I share Bullet190's opinion. I am pestered constantly by FOs wanting to ask for direct routings for no pressing reason. We have a published flight plan and I always fly it unless the controller offers something different. It's not my place in the scheme of good manners and protocol to ask for shortcuts.

B190 what you refer to is commonplace.... (FL310 northbound until out of MAD airspace).... with which CFMU have no doubt made your company aware with their various CTOT slots; file an internal report and your Nav or Perf manager should be able to default your plog to refelect the lower level in future.

Yes I can read WCF (that'll be concern and not sarcasm I assume?), but having had some friends have a look at this thread to reassure me I wasn't going mad, we all find your prose very difficult to understand. Your writing style seems to have been influenced so much by your anger it doesn't flow well and is difficult to follow. If you had made clear reference to what you were referring to with your sentence beginning "FOR THE LAST TIME......" I don't think my confusion would have ensued.

Radar,

[QUOTE]
There are at my airport, stopping those pesky vehicles from infringing the runway or doing something on the taxiway or apron that they shouldn't be doing!![QUOTE]

that's not what I was talking about; rather, when airplanes and airlines "cease" to be, completely! As in the Tempelhof deal, to use the latest example.
Those cars can "have" the runways as much as they want, now! (sadly)

Kiltie:

I replicate for the very last time the part you and your friends found difficult to comprehend.........

Please tell me how I could have made that clearer????? What worries me is that you are clearly a native english speaker! :rolleyes:

If you want an even better understanding I think (even tho its now heavily modded) that by reading the entire thread you and your friends may have finally got the picture no? I've had to sooth the "pain" I've inflicted on you sensetive atco's several times already.

Shack:

Welcome out of the "closet". Is THAT your biggest stone? Apology accepted! :rolleyes:

Kiltie, thanks for the advise but I have already been down that road, spoke to our flight planning dept. etc over a year ago concerning this. We now have a blanket 'low level restriction' through Madrid on the plogs, even if it doesn't happen all the time.
The point is though....... why do they accept a flight plan at FL370 when it's common place to get much lower than this ? Flight planning is exactly that - to help you plan for the flight and decide the right fuel.

I personally see that the airspaces got too crowded for the amount of traffic we have nowadays. It might have worked some time ago, but seems like only the aviation all and around has been renewed, with exception of airspace flows. Maybe they should rethink/redo/reorganize some things on that. I mean, its like a photoshop. It only focused on the films, etc., but never adapted to the digital cams nor to the memory cards... it soon will go down (well, maybe already did), and so with the airways, airflow management, etc. But nor the pilots, nor the controllers can do sh!t about, I assume that it's Eurocontrol, FAA, JAA, and so on, to rethink it. It's their job, isn't it. The problem I see is, the same as usual: those who are in charge of those things seem to have little (or no) experience in those real world scenarios, so they most likely don't know about the everyday 'problems'. And if someone tells them, it really doesn't come over. I wished those guys would be composed of retired/actual controllers, pilots, etc. (I know, utopia:O)
Personally I think it starts getting a little absurd of some comments I read, and there is no need to be harsh, so better let's come up with ideas how we can make those people in charge (to call it like that) know, what really is happening/what to 'redo'!?!? Ideas, suggestions? Anyone? :ok:

WCF, you're right to worry that I am a native English speaker!

For those really nice guys !!!
 

Are you guys upset because the controllers in Spain don`t give you directs???

So I will tell you : They don`t give you directs to keep the salary that pilots had in the past , but don`t have anymore because pilots are nice guys. Instead of beeing complaining about decent conditions they are worried about saving 2 minutes to their companies.

Just for your information , salaries above 10K EUROS ARE NORMAL!!!!!!! And with extra time , instruction ,etc. , may reach 20K !!!!!

So , instead of criticizing people who still have dignity , stop 2 minutes and think. Eyes closed.

I`m sure that after this two minutes you will be ashamed of yourself and the class you belong to.



A-3TWENTY

PS : I`m not a native english speaker , so if you found some mistakes, and you are one of those english teachers who come to this forum , print my post and make a picture to your room.

A-3T, that was short and nice, LOL but so true as well!
I smiled with what you said in your PS hahaha! :ok: (Yup, I am not native english speaker neither, so it was funny, at least to me:E)

A3Twenty

Err.......... I have no idea`where to start! Congratulations though - your english IS better than my swahili! :}

Doesn't it make a nice change though to hear of someone who objects to waste?

The very first Pilot vs ATCO willy waving comment in any form which I can find evidence of was from the thread starter in Post #3

There are no deleted messages prior to that, except one from the thread starter himself which is an abbreviated version of Post #3. Deleted posts are kept on PPRuNe, available for Mods to view should they wish to do so. They are only hidden from public view when deleted. There are no other deleted posts I can assure you.

The only other possibility is that Post #2 was edited. Or was it ?

Thank you for the clarification 10 west. My best guess then was an editing. My own attempt to smoke him out hasn't worked so may we now put this side of things to rest? :confused:

No we can't as you are accusing me of something that i didn't write. You don't need to smoke me out as i NEVER wrote it. :ugh: You obviously in your angry "i can't get a direct!" dummy throwing frenzy saw something that you wanted to see.

I've tried very hard to not to make it into a willy waving contest but some people are impossible...

1985

Not only are some people impossible, quite often they are never wrong... in their eyes.

Still waiting for proof of organised industrial action - bearing in mind Gulfstreamaviator states he still receives shortcuts.

Does anyone honestly think that controllers are daft enough to think that making an aircraft fly its flight planned route is an effective method of industrial action? It has no impact on Flow or anything... in fact it might even improve flow if shortcuts aren't given.

WCF - you need not answer :} - we already know your opinion of Spanish Controllers from post number 28 where you mention gene pools... obviously that outburst was in response to a 'deleted' or 'edited' post from a Spaniard.

Also, from post number 1

It's not difficult... If this was some form of action and not just a perception, then basic business sense would say that as you are a customer and you are having to pay more for fuel, you would complain to the service provider.

The service provider could ask controllers to give shortcuts (not going to happen though because that is not what ATC is about) or it could cave in to the ATCOs demands.

However as already stated, I doubt very much if controllers would do this as the chances of success would be limited. After all, even the service provider could tell you, the customer, that a shorcut is a perk not a right and there would not be a thing the customer could do about that fact.


You're talking about the first three posts in the thread, two of them yours. You cannot really expect people to believe that you couldn't remember whether there were two replies to your initial post, or just one before you made post number three???

There's only 30 minutes between the first post and the third post being published!!!

And the way PPruNe works is that the time of your post as shown on the thread is the time that you press the reply button and start typing - not the time it is submitted.

Therefore given time for typing your initial post and for 1985 to find it, read it, reply and then you to do the same on your next post, we are talking in the region of 20 minutes max!!! That's a very poor memory, especially for an aviator :}

Maybe we should justfor your sake as you are the one who has been 'smoked out'.

Note the system generated edited message below as well...

1985:

I didn't say it was you. You seem to have adopted the blame though........

1985 and Anotherthing:

You pair are a little like Stadler and Waldorf - you only come out together. I'm starting to wonder whether we're not dealing with a schizophrenic here :}

*takes popcorn and soda:E*
Hmmm, seeing that some peeps just don't want to see reality, this threat is starting to get even more interesting!
Just kidding...
But still, I think everybody has seen the point, and understood it, isn't it? Yup yup yup!:ugh:

(Mods, I think there is no more point of wasting server capacity, as for me you can close up this threat! :E *just a suggestion based on personal opinion*LOL*:ok:)

Alfredo - I'm thinking of deleting it myself actually! The world's not ready for me yet.........

To infinity and beyond! :}