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Inverness Radar
Spies tell me that finally and not before time, Invernoo is getting it's own radar, SSR and Primary.
Spies also tell me that although NATS are carrying out the instillation etc, the project is being "overseen" by Marshall Aerospace. True or not? If so, why? NATs may have their shortcomings, but I've always had the highest regard for their Engineering Branch> Should we be told?:confused: |
niknak
Shouldn't you ask HIAL rather than NATS?
More to the point....are there any jobs in the offing? More and more to the point....is this connected to the Kinloss closure? |
Interesting stuff niknak.
I wonder if Inverness controllers will do the radar control or if it will be contracted out. HIAL Sumburgh contracts out their radar control to NATS at Aberdeen. |
I imagine that the primary radar head is going to be at Inverness Airport, and that the SSR will be either piped in to consoles at Inverness, or it could easily be remoted to Aberdeen.
If the radar head is at Inverness, they then have the option to contract it out to NATS for 3 years until they have enough trained atco's at Inverness to fulfill the task, then pipe in the SSR. As far as I am aware, HIAL have no radar atco's, so either way they're in for an expensive few years. If and when it eventually all located at Inverness it would be a groovy number as HIAL pay near enough the equivilant of NATS rates, and it's a nice place to pass the time of day. |
Unless you know otherwise Niknak I thought the decision had not bee made yet.
The options/rumours I have heard are Primary radar head somewher on the Black Isle HIAL to do radar in house ( problem no radar HIAL ATCO's ) NATS at Lossie ? then do it from Aberdeen a la Sumburgh ( to expensive ? ) SERCO from Lossie ( 2/1 favourite ? ) As far as ScACC is concerened as long as the new service providers understand radar vectoring and the basics of procedural separation it can only be a step in the right direction:E However if the job is only going to consist of Inverness Radar you are going to get bored very quickly! Rgds AyrTC |
AyrTC,
Why would doing Inverness from Aberdeen be too expensive? We already do more than Sumburgh from there,including Anglia and Brent which all use radar feeds from East Anglia,and Norway's sector.Taking another radar feed would be no problem. We have approach radar controllers,but whether enough to do EGPE is debatable at the moment.It's also going to be a green field validation,so a lot of simulation would be needed before SRG would accept it. As for your comment about ScACC being happy about any new service providers understanding Radar Vectoring etc :what a lot of cobblers.What do you think Approach Radar Controllers do all day? Yeah get a/c a damn sight closer together than any Area sector.Vector jets 3 miles behind helicopters on the ILS.Also, in our case setup a lot of headings for Tay/Moray to lessen their workload. Perhaps we show you whats it's like to get the outbounds all on their own navigation,and watch ScACC sort it out:mad: |
Throw a Dyce calm down:mad:
I was just stating the options that were available to HIAL it may be too expensive to them I really do not give a toss who provides the service as long as it is a Civil ATC unit. The vectoring statement was about present vectoring or lack of it by Lossie not Aberdeen. Maybe my statement was not clear enough however I do not think your outburst has helped the image of Aberdeen but what would I know I'm just an Area Controller who sits on his ars£ all day and does sod all ( apparently ). Rgds AyrTC :zzz: |
I'm watching this thread with interest. The Highland jungle drums have indeed been beating. ;)
I'm sure that minimising costs will be the prime factor for HIAL. As far as I'm aware, Hial have listened to 3 proposals for establishing approach radar at Inverness. :ok: The parties invloved were NATS, Serco and Marshall Aerospace. By all accounts, the proposal by NATS included siting of a new radar for Inverness, and feeding this to Aberdeen - nice and simple. However, the cost quoted by NATS caused the Highland eyes to water somewhat and I'm led to believe it's a non-starter. :oh: Marshall propose aiding HIAL to provide the service in house. (ie, providing the shortfall of ATC staff in the initial stages, thereby enabling Hial ATCOs to complete the requisite APS course followed by validation at Cambridge so that Inverness is not a 'first tour'. SRG are twitchy at the thought of 'green' radar controllers going into a green field unit. :hmm: But who knows for sure? Hial are going into very much unchartered territory for them. :uhoh: On a side note, I couldn't help but notice that as soon as the 'Inverness Radar' thread appeared, another thread appeared titled, 'End of Radar for ATC?' Made me chuckle anyway! :} |
Ayr TC,
Always Lossie to be very helpful as there is a lot of traffic works directly between the two units and never talks to ScACC.In fact 50% of our traffic never talks to ScACC ,and that is the traffic which is easiest dealt with. As for the image of Aberdeen,well I think that NATS management and the unions have managed that beautifully over the years.ATCO2/3 farce,high turnover of staff,Downgraded to Band 2.Highest growth of the BAA airports in the last few months,and with oil price at an all time high,probably one of the most vital airports in the UK.Wait for the next Oil boom.What will we get;Probably Band 1 next! As for your last statement then if you admit it then thats fine.Just wait til you get busted to Band 1. :ok: |
throw a dyce
Sounds like you're ready for another stint in the Far East! Still, if they keep downgrading ABZ, we could always catch the train instead- if we could get a seat!! ;) |
Hi Bekol,
I'm already in the Far East (of Scotland). You could be right though about revisiting the Plaza for another stint.Food for thought that my housing allowance in 99 is the same as take home pay here.We have to have TWR,APP,and APP Radar to be Unit Valid.Unlike lots of NATS units,which are single discipline for a lot more pay. As for the original thread you can't get the job done without paying for it.HIAL already has a contract to provide Radar into EGPB done from Aberdeen.If they wish to go elsewhere for EGPE then that's up to them.It will be interesting to see the outcome,especially since it's a Green Field site. In the meantime we wait to see what the Union/Management has stitched up for us in the next pay round.I would stick to the train or Megabus if my guess is correct. Living on the edge. TAD:cool: |
throw a dyce
What's the matter with you, get a life and stop the ranting. All you're doing is making yourself look stupid and trying to bring the rest of ABZ down to your level. I'm sure most of the readers will be able to work out that your comments are NOT what the majority of controllers up in the cold north subscribe to - in fact most of us enjoy the 'Ice Station' and have an excellent working relationship with adjacent ATC units. |
The big jungle drum told me that Marshalls has definately got the "contract", although where they are going to get the ATCOs from I don't know.
The Drum also told me that Marshalls had been given a contract to "oversee" the management of ATC at Norwich, so that would fit in with the Marshall idea of validating ATCOs elswhere before they go to, for example, Inverness. Looks like competition for Serco & NATS. :oh: |
although where they are going to get the ATCOs from I don't know. There are probably several NATS controllers (including one or two at ABZ) who would consider taking early retirement and moving to the Moray coast to enjoy the good-life. |
Throw a Dyce should maybe come to the sunny South....he'd have his eyes opened I suspect. 3 miles between aircraft is expected, not an exception. This goes on all day every day....it's hard work sustaining that level of traffic and concentration, believe me the salary doesn't compensate for the staff shortages and extra stress that ensues because of it.
Still, if he's keen maybe he should come down and try it! |
Funny.
I don't recall seeing too many helicopters coming down the ILS at Heathrow the last time I was there. |
D80/90,
You obviously can't get what I said.I stated that I have an excellent working relationship with Lossie,and ScATCC can be interesting but I help them out a lot.As for Ice Station,then it does have a history which isn't pleasant,and everything stated there was fact,like or not.If ABZ has a reputation for being difficult as far as ScATCC is concerned then that's the reason. Heathrowinnit, Sorry mate but my eyes don't need opened.Work in the FE with the big stuff,in an airport the same as LL and got twice $ as much as NATS offers.Keen? Well offer me HK rates,paid accomodation,travel every cycle, a company car, and who knows.Anyway you lot ain't interested as I'm over 40. Bekol, You're right about not too many wopters on the ILS at LL.Didn't see too many Tornados up their backsides either.Or R22's in the circuit etc. Anyway I will stop my "rantings'' and get a life.How about some beers in the plaza soon?:cool: |
Over the hill at 40!!
I'm surprised to hear that NATS won't take you down South if you're over 40....I can assure you that this is unlikely (personal experience). If you want to get here I suggest you apply and then see if there is an age restriction. With your experience of a twin runway airport that moves nearly as many aircraft as Gatwick you must be in with a shout!! ( sorry couldn't resist!) |
...of course Marshalls is run by an ex-serco GM and an ex-serco Safety Manager. How good's the service going to be?
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With your experience of a twin runway airport that moves nearly as many aircraft as Gatwick you must be in with a shout!! ( sorry couldn't resist!) Lets put Mainland Chinese airspace, operating metric levels and radar sep in km, speaking mainly Putonghua, 8 miles to the north and west and see how well they go though. ( sorry couldn't resist!) |
Inverness radar ??
Any timescale as to when Inverness radar might be turning and burning? Can only be an improvement compared to the present Lossie radar arrangement.
And might CAS follow in time? :cool: |
Any news?
Are the 'spies' able to report anything further regarding EGPE radar? All seems to have gone quiet.
Are Lossiemouth going to continue to provide the service on the ADRs to/from EGPE until the new service is in place? :confused: |
From the minutes of the last HIAL Board Meeting:
HIAL had originally invited three suppliers to tender for the contract to install radar at Inverness airport. The project is separated into two elements phase one, which is to take the radar feed from Lossiemouth and set up a consol in the Inverness control tower with HIAL trained controllers, and phase two, to install a dedicated HIAL radar. One of the suppliers had taken no account of HIAL s long term view so was discounted. One of the remaining two suppliers then advised that it was not interested in continuing with discussions. The Board asked about the costs involved with phase one. Mr Lyon explained that the budget for 2006/07 provided for costs of £500,000 for phase one. This comprised costs for a project manager, staff costs for training, radar feed from Lossiemouth and capital costs of creating a consol in the control tower. The Board asked whether we would be able to recharge the cost to operators but was advised that this was unlikely. The Board requested a further paper which clearly outlined the costs and risks so it could consider in more detail. |
Well who ever it will be at Inverness - good luck! It can be a busy bit of airspace around there - not just a sleepy hollow! During the Neptune Warrior exercises with departures/recoveries to Lossimeouth and Kinloss - it can be quite sporty!:uhoh:
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ATCO vacancy
HIAL's web site had been advertising an ATCO vacancy for EGPE for the past couple of weeks, looks like it has now been filled.
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Mystery Atcos
Quote from the Inverness Courier Friday July 21, 2006
'Seven-day radar cover should be in place at the airport by summer 2007,...' Now, I know it's only a local paper and that journalists have a tendancy to mould throw-away, off-the-record remarks into facts, but is this true? :confused: Have Hial placed any ads for radar ATCOs recently? I saw the ad for Radar rated Atcos with OJTI a few months back but did I miss any others? Has there been anything in Flight? My understandning is that HIAL have no radar rated ATCOs (I may be wrong though). They'd have to go some to be off the ground next summer without some serious recruiting. Unless of course they've had a program of sending their own staff on APS courses for some time. Do the spies know anything? |
The only HIAL unit that has radar is Sumburgh.That service is provided by NATS from Aberdeen.
Good luck to HIAL if they want to do it themselves or with Marshalls.Experienced approach radar controllers are difficult to come by....;) |
Confused me when I passed through Inverness area on a FIS the other week and was given a discrete squawk - and it wasn't a Lossie squawk because Inverness changed my squawk prior to handover to Lossie.
What was that about? NS |
If you were given anything other than 7000 but not told you were identified, then it's just conspicuity for other units ie this aircraft is talking to Inverness.
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Originally Posted by chevvron
If you were given anything other than 7000 but not told you were identified, then it's just conspicuity for other units ie this aircraft is talking to Inverness.
NS |
'Seven-day radar cover should be in place at the airport by summer 2007,...'
Glad to see that Inverness will be MARSHALLing their resources for this improvement. Could be a historic moment when the first radar service is due to be provided, make sure you take a video-CAM; BRIDGE too far? Who knows! |
Nice to see HIAL are taking the move to radar for EGPE. Given the current level of traffic at the airport and the plans for the future, it's definately the way forward.
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Being so close to Lossie/Kinloss, I would have thought radar would be essential for the safety of PT aircraft in the absence of regulated airspace, especially when carrying out iap's in IMC.
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Radar Jobs??
Any jobs in the pipeline? :hmm:
Can anyone 'in-the-know' at HIAL dilvulge any info? :E |
HIAL have an excellent record of training their own atco's from scratch.
Although they're going to need a few experienced, fully qualified atcos to get the project up and running, I would hope that they can find the cash to invest in training some of the younger atco's who've served HIAL so well doing ADC/APC at some of the far flung points of the Scottish universe. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the age range at Inverness is not as young as it used to be. If that is the case, although they're entitled to be considered for radar training, they'd have to pass the apptitude tests and convince the company that they'd be a good investment. That's not a dig at the older atco's - being old and decrepid myself - I know what the practicalities of such considerations are. |
Decrepid Atcos
I've resisted posting here until now, but I have to respond to that niknak.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the age range at Inverness is not as young as it used to be. If that is the case, although they're entitled to be considered for radar training, they'd have to pass the apptitude tests and convince the company that they'd be a good investment. That's not a dig at the older atco's - being old and decrepid myself - I know what the practicalities of such considerations are. I would hope that they can find the cash to invest in training some of the younger atco's who've served HIAL so well doing ADC/APC at some of the far flung points of the Scottish universe. Inverness is the busiest procedural ATC unit in the UK by far and for many years now, the ATS staff there have been 'making it work'. The Mon-Fri Lossie agreement is clumsy at best and dangerous at worst. Weekends can be madness. 4 Instrument Holds and co-ordination with 3 different ACC sectors - 1 telephone line. GMC/TWR/APC - 1 frequency. Have Hial placed any ads for radar ATCOs recently? I saw the ad for Radar rated Atcos with OJTI a few months back but did I miss any others? Has there been anything in Flight? My understandning is that HIAL have no radar rated ATCOs (I may be wrong though). They'd have to go some to be off the ground next summer without some serious recruiting. Unless of course they've had a program of sending their own staff on APS courses for some time. At this stage however, only one Inverness ATCO has been sent on and completed a radar course. HIAL ATS Management have had the opportunity to send 2 or 3 other Inverness ATCOs on courses but have elected not to. This has caused much consternation within various departments as the time keeps ticking away! :ugh: Rumour says that the Lossie agreement will end early next year whether the Inverness radar project is ready or not. :uhoh: 'Seven-day radar cover should be in place at the airport by summer 2007,...' |
From yesterday's Press & Journal:
08:50 - 25 July 2006 Plans to introduce local radar cover at Inverness Airport will increase the numbers of flights and reduce noise, airport bosses claimed yesterday. Highlands and Islands Airports Limited (Hial) has awarded a six-figure contract for the construction of a new radar room to Belgian-based airport specialists Barco. It is hoped that seven-day radar cover will be in place by summer 2007, using specially-trained radar controllers based at the airport. The airport's radar cover is currently provided Monday to Friday through an arrangement between National Air Traffic Services and the Ministry of Defence, using the radar heads at RAF Kinloss and RAF Lossiemouth. Four Hial air traffic controllers are undergoing radar training and one man has already gained his qualification. Externally qualified radar controllers are also being recruited. Earlier this year Hial signed a contract with Marshall Aviation Services to develop the radar project and is working closely with the UK Civil Aviation Authority's Safety Regulation Group on the scheme. The project is being funded by Hial and has been awarded a grant of £50,000 from regional transport partnership Hitrans. Inverness Airport manager James Walton said: "The arrangement we have had with the MoD since 1999 has served the airport well but as the airport continues to develop the time has come to move to providing our own radar. "This is a major project that will offer significant benefits to the airlines, minimise delays to passengers, and mitigate the environmental impact of aircraft movements at Inverness in terms of reducing noise and emissions. "We are working closely with the industry regulators, the MoD and our specialist consultants to ensure that this project is properly phased and ultimately delivers the radar service a rapidly expanding regional airport like Inverness requires. Barco has extensive experience of providing radar control rooms in Europe and we are delighted that their first UK project will be at Inverness." Passenger numbers have been increasing at Inverness Airport in recent years as a result of the introduction of several new routes. In the year to March 2006, Hial's 10 airports handled a record 1,153,000 passengers. I imagine 5 ATCOs (one recruited radar controller with limited experience and four HIAL ATCOs who are being trained) will not be enough.:confused: SotN |
Highland D.
thanks for the information, I hope that everyone, where ever they are, is given equal consideration for further training. As for radar seven days a week, 0600 - 2200, without checking the precise formulae, a minimum of 11 fully rated atco's would be required. I would imagine that if HIAL pay scales are proportionately applied to radar scales, they'd have no problem recruiting enough experienced staff to get the ball rolling (if they advertise in Flight), I would hope that they also go balls out to train more than four of their own staff, wherever they eminate from. |
Management have had the opportunity to send 2 or 3 other Inverness ATCOs on courses but have elected not to. This has caused much consternation within various departments as the time keeps ticking away! And the ATCO's that have the abillity for radar are going elswhere anyway:ok: Still it will all come out in the wash:{ "or end in tears |
Gisajob I think you're needed!
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