Inverness Radar
 

Can anyone from the Highlands let us know if there is anything people can do to stop this malaise that appears to be at the heart of this thread? Is it really as bad as the picture that is being painted? Surely someone from HIAL Management must be reading this thread? Are they all just keeping their head in the sand or just not interested in their staff? Surely the ATC staff must be finding it hard to carry on as normal with so much happening or are they nearly all keeping their heads down???:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

The picture's every bit as bad as being painted. Controllers who've been with HIAL for years, been through the bad times before and stuck with them, are now looking to leave. Sadly HIAL Head Office Management's heads are collectively in the sand. If they are interested in their staff they've an odd way of communicating this. ATC staff are finding it hard to carry on as normal with all the unrest within the company. The regulator is only too aware of this - low morale does not engender a good safety culture. One ATCO is leaving HIAL at the end of this month, a few have job offers in hand and others have job interviews pending. Before the year end it's likely airports will have to shut for periods due to staff shortages. The remaining staff will receive flak from the travelling public and press for this and what little morale is left will go. Unlike the BCB they don't have a PR guru to make them look good. :{

HIAL ATC staff are not alone in suffering, the company's Airport Fire Service is similarly affected by the malaise and are losing staff rapidly. :*

As far as Inverness Radar is concerned HIAL Head Office Management stubbornly purport it'll be in place by 31 March 2007.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: Not a chance.:=

Inverness Radar
 

Hi Lifes2Good, thanks for your concern and in answer to your questions, It is VERY hard and BCB has made it more difficult by falling out with the regulators!! ATS used to have a good rapport with CAA SRG but the Monty Python Sqdn Leader recently banned us from having any direct communications :suspect: with SRG. :ugh: :ugh:
However the light at the end of the tunnel is that the CAA and other government agencies are beginning to see through the :mad: ! Bring on the Showdown!!!!:D

Fabulous! Well said falcon777 :D I couldn't have made a better summary. :ok:

Couple of tips for you:
1. NEVER attend an "interview" alone.......it is your right to be accompanied.
2. You have an absolute right to contact the regulator.....your licence is issued by CAA and not by your employer.
By the way...what on earth is the union doing?....if anything?

Inverness Radar
 

Well said 055166k surely the powers that be SRG must be very concerned about these state of affairs.
I'm sure all the HIAL ATCO's are reading this thread with great interest, perhaps firemen too. The advice given by 011166k is not to be ignored.

Good luck to all who sail in the Good Ship HIAL.

Behind the Iron Curtain
 

He has fallen out with them too! They have had numerous complaints, but with his Queen digging him out of the :mad: BCB has managed to avoid being caught, so far:ugh: :ugh: The Unions are lying in wait and when dinner comes, they will rip BCB to shreds!!!
Also SRG are majorly clamping down! That's why we expect a 'show down'

Meantime his bully tactics and scare mongering means an increased number of valued members of HIAL staff are 'speaking with their feet' and walking! Some haven't even given more than a days notice!

As for having enough qualified personnel to cover the Radar project in early 2007, pigs will fly first!!!
F777

What the hell is going on at Inverness???
 

The latest installment in the tale is that the previously mentioned Squadron Leader in charge of ATS (who banned ATCO's from ever communicating with SRG:mad: :oh: := ) has now, in turn, been banned from doing the same by the MD:confused: :confused: :confused: .......A SOMEWHAT ILL-ADVISED AND DANGEROUS GAME TO PLAY!, watch this space. Messing the Regulators about will not go unnoticed, especially if you are caught trying to pull the wool over their eyes.

Stay tuned, the fireworks are going to be fantastic.

Just out of interest, why is he known as the 'Squadron Leader'? A quick look at his internet resume indicates a career starting in 1971 in the in the DTI; I see no military links.

That said, I agree that an individual is licensed by the CAA and therefore has a right to approach the Authority about any issue which is encompassed by the terms, conditions or responsibilities of his/her license.

Is it still safe to fly in and out of HIAL airports? Those in the towers and fire stations will be professional to the end but can they be expected to operate to their full potential with all this going on over their heads? Especially if this is going on hand in hand with (training?) budget cuts. I am concerned this will turn out to be a flight safety issue but everyone is too scared (and I'm not surprised) to report it. Has anyone thought to use the anonymous CHIRP system?

Different Guy
 

LM

I think you must be mixing up the Sqnd Leaders. Ours is definitely an ex RAF man and I believe he used to visit some of the HIAL units during military activations prior to joining the company.

NEWS FLASH Two more HIAL personnel resigned within the last 24 hours. :eek: Another ATCO and the Company Fire Officer! Both have found an alternative to the current HIAL drudgery and I know I am not alone in thinking " I wish it was me!!":{ Also, I believe the staffing situation over in the 'west' is reaching crisis point and guess what management are doing? Sweet :mad: because BCB is on AL:ugh:

BTW, SRG ARE aware of what's going on;) :ok:

F777

Ho Ho! Would the last person to leave HIAL please leave the lights on a 15 minute timer switch! :}

lights on for 15 mins?
 

The company would probably try to get a dispensation from the CAA to have the lights switched off after 5 mins.....to save on electricity!:p :ok: ;)

Direct contact with SRG by HIAL ATCOs has been going on for many years.
When I was with the company, there was so little faith in management that the Head office was bypassed by the ATC staff as a matter of course.

It would appear that, as ever, the head office management are only interested in asking "how high?" when the puppet of a MD says "Mc Jump".

What HIAL really needs is to be put into the private sector, then the taxpayers of the UK (not just Scotland) would really see how much money it costs to run this poorly managed and unnecessary organisation.

But I don't suppose that will ever happen....

Yea Gods!
 

I've been following this thread with much interest... :bored:

I am definitely looking forward to the fireworks :ok: Let's keep our fingers crossed that the brown stuff hits the air conditioning and the de-sanitation team can clean up quickly, without causing TOO much more stress...

P***ing off SRG, let alone everyone else and their dog, is never a good idea.

:D :D Well done, that there management! :D :D

Hang in there, guys! It can surely only get better... can't it?

Job vacancies
 

Just been looking at the HIAL web site and guess what, they have vacancies (plural) for non-radar ATCO's !!!!

Isn’t this saga sad. No ATCO can take any pleasure from reading such a sorry story of ATCO mis-management, but have we been here before ???

Why do we have continuing stories on pprune of non ATCO managers cocking up the vital management of the only two professions who can close airports (ATC and RFFS).

ATCOs need to be lead not ordered about. Most ATCOs are bright individuals who will respond to good leadership. When will airport managers realise that management of ATCOs is totally different from managing baggage handlers or security staff ??

I despair

C'mon the crofters!
 

http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk...pNodeId=149221
I was particularly impressed by the following quote...Sounds like a fair summary to me. ;)

Radar project update!
 

A radar project update has been issued.
I suppose we shouldn't really fret over such trivial matters. Radar data....? Approach radar room.....? Minor minor details really..... :hmm:
Can it get any more farcical? :{

Surely a mistake? AFAIK they haven't got the money to buy a new radar yet, let alone ordered one. To get one in place and operational by 31-3-07 they'd have to be installing it on site NOW. 31-3-07 is supposed to be the operational date for the feed to a radar room at EGPE, not the new radar.
But in among all this there is also the question, what about controlled airspace? Sure, they won't get CAS until they have radar, but having radar - especially a feed from a head 25nm away - without CAS still leaves a lot to be desired. We now have announcements of yet more new routes - Southampton, NEMA, Belfast City - and CAA stats show Inverness handling more ATMs now than Bournemouth and DTV, both of which have CAS, and almost as many as Prestwick, which got its CAS back in 2003.
NS

You think that Inverness have problems at the moment, these are a walk in the park compared to the application for CAS.

Firstly, radar with SSR is required for the entire opening hours of the airport with a guarantee that full staffing will be available.
Todays CAA stats count for nothing, DAP will consider such things when the above criteria is satisfied.
There are a miriad of organisations who have to be informed, consulted and kept updated, continuous proof of tis is required.

I doubt that HIAL have the nouse or competence to do the above, unless of course, they employ an outside contractor who knows what they are doing.

It's fair to say that very few ATSUs in the bearpit that UK ATC provision has become have the resources and knowledge to compile, submit and manage a CAS application. They're too busy controlling! But HIAL is publicly-owned, and if their owners the Scottish Exec are so keen to throw taxpayers money at Ryanair, Emirates, Delta etc in order to subsidise business travellers and Michael O'Leary's pockets, one would imagine that their officials might regard the 100% funding of a CAS application as a sensible contribution to the safety of the public who they are encouraging - paying! - to travel by air. CAS at Inverness has been under discussion for YEARS. What have they been doing?
NS

AFAIK last time they applied they put forward a number of airproxes as justification. Most would have been outside the proposed CAS, many were non-risk bearing and the rest were contributed to by the Inverness controllers. :ugh: Although Inverness is getting busier I don't believe that there is the density of other traffic in the area to justify CAS. Most of the military will be low level unless on approach to Kinloss or Lossie and they should be under a service from Lossie anyway. The fact that most inbounds to Inverness now fly stonking great instrument patterns in VMC when previously they carried out visuals suggests that the evidence is hoped to be gathered by increasing the exposure time over the Moray Firth to fast jets operating into and out of the Tain ranges. := Wouldn't be surprised if some of the recent moves to close Tain were also being prompted by those with Inverness interests at heart.

As it stands, radar at Inverness and a LARS service in the area should in itself, if properly applied and implemented, go a long way to maintaining safety in the area without the restrictions that CAS would inevitably bring. :ok:

"The fact that most inbounds to Inverness now fly stonking great instrument patterns in VMC when previously they carried out visuals"

Would you care to qualify this?

And how many of the airproxes involved IFR inbounds declaring a visual? I suspect the reason they all fly the procedure now is because with increasing traffic levels and no radar the controllers can't be sure where conflicting traffic is. I've had one unnerving experience of flying a VFR transit across Inverness when an Easyjet was cleared for a visual, apparently descending through a hole in the cloud below which I was flying. The only thing giving accurate information on our proximity in that situation was the 737's TCAS. Not nice!

As for "Most of the military will be low level" that's precisely the problem - not speaking to anyone, VFR, autonomous, very fast, and likely to change heading/altitude at the drop of a hat. Not quite so much of a problem now than when Inverness had lots of SH360s, but ask Doncaster or Prestwick or Norwich controllers what it's like maintaining separation on FJs crossing the final approach path.
NS

This is a fascinating thread, and one that doesn't surprise me having had to negotiate with HIAL in my previous Job.

It beggars belief that since 1998 when the requirement for radar service provision was called for by the airlines operating to Inverness (primarily to deconflict with Mil ac) and was agreed to by the RAF,CAA, NATS and MOD, as an interim measure, that no progress has been made by HIAL to sort themselves out.

However, since then the amount of IFR GAT traffic going into Inverness has continually grown and grown.

As I understand it, come what may, the RAF will pull out of the Inverness task on 01 Apr 07. I don't blame them at all; the level of ac being worked now is far beyond what it was at the tasks conception and is likely to continue to grow, if recent press releases are anything to go by.

Another problem for CAS at Inverness is within the consultation process; the major objector to ANY CAS in this area would be MOD, followed by BGA, both of whom would have to be included in the 'informal consultation' carried out prior to the actual application. I've done this process several times, yes it does take a lot of man-hours and however meticulous you are, DAP always find something amiss with your methodology eg insufficient environmental consultation.
Provision of LARS in class G airspace is suitable as a short term measure, especially if you can make it a service that's useful to all pilots; that would give some measure of a 'known traffic' environment, but wouldn't of course, mitigate for the low flyers suddenly pulling up from low level, 7001 or not!

Forgot to mention; any airspace change will take between a 8 and 12 months from commencement of informal consultation to implimentation, so if the process were started now, it might be established by July next year at the earliest provided there are no objections to hold up the procedure.

:=
Surely you mean if a case can be made to support it.

True, the DofT and DAP have specific criterea for regulated airspace which they (AFAIK) won't publish, it's up to you to fulfil them without knowing what they are!!

Controlled Airspace
 

Controlled airspace at Inverness is years away and could never happen anyway without a robust radar control service being in place. Heaven knows when Inverness will actually have the latter. No staff - no radar data - no radar equipment - no contracts - no approval........
If you are eagerly anticipating CAS at Inverness - expect a long wait :(
If the idea of CAS upsets you, then sleep well. ;)

Inverness Radar
 

Posted by jack-oh :
"As I understand it, come what may, the RAF will pull out of the Inverness task on 01 Apr 07. I don't blame them at all; the level of ac being worked now is far beyond what it was at the tasks conception and is likely to continue to grow, if recent press releases are anything to go by."
Just out of Interest has anyone thought what will happen if the military do pull out of providing the service at the end of March 2007. Surely the airlines will be very seriously concerned? Even if the Military are required by their bosses to continue the service will they still have the staff there to provide it? Lastly who will pay for the task continuing? if HIAL have to pay surely it will be more money taken from their radar budget ??
This thread seems to ask more questions than are being answered but it certainly makes interesting reading. I wonder if HIAL are making provisions should Radar not come on line at the stipulated time ?

Lifes2good - Interesting question. If Lossie do pull out (as looks likely) then there is no option but for Inverness to operate in the same way as the other 4 procedural HIAL units. ie some poor sod in a poorly equipped tower working miracles on his own. Of course the airlines wont be happy. However, some have suggested that the regulators would not allow this to happen. I disagree. The regulators are satisfied with Inverness currently operating a one man band TWP/APP set-up on Saturdays and Sundays as things stand. If they deem that to be safe, then how can they possibly insist on a different system on weekdays?
Yes of course there is much more military flying on weekdays but I reckon the regulators would be hard pushed to make a case for insisting that a radar service is available to aircraft operating into an aerodrome situated in Class G airspace.
I do not know what the current financial arrangements are between NATS,MOD and HIAL for the current letter of agreement. I would expect that the MOD receive appropriate remuneration from NATS since a portion of the ADR structure is delegated to Lossie by SCACC. However, for the last 8 years, HIAL have been sitting fat dumb and happy enjoying a 'free radar service' and ignoring the desperate need to modernise the aerodrome infrastructure.
New company motto - 'HIAL - Too little - Too late'

We had a similar agreement with a nearby military unit until early this year.

The difference being that the MOD paid us to have our bods on console there, this being considered to be the safest option given the adjacent nature of our two units.

The annual costs at the end of the contract worked out at about £98K per year.

If HIAL have been getting the services of Lossi' for nowt all these years, they're in for a big suprise - my man on the inside at the RAF dept' of deals tells me that the MOD bean counters are looking closely at the contract we had, in anticipation of presenting HIAL with the harsh facts of commercial reality.

I understand the Lossiemouth service was funded by NATS, recovered from the En Route charge. So every operator who flew within UK airspace was paying for it ;)

A Lossiemouth controller told me that Inverness simply funded one extra controller at Lossie.

If that is the case, questions should be sevrely asked in the House!!!
:rolleyes: :mad: :rolleyes:

NATS fund the Inverness task, as Highland Director said, it all comes down to the the deligation of airspace from NATS to Lossiemouth. The original deal was for the installation of an additional console (plus comms etc) at Lossiemouth and and the provision of 2 controllers, based on a 55hr week. At the time HIAL were not even in the loop as to funding, as the App task was not part of the deal. NATS tried to state that the task should simply come under the LARS banner and no additional funding was required. This didn't go down to well, but the whole contract was swept up with a much larger NATS/MOD deal and the details were lost in the haze. In effect, HIAL got the whole thing for free and has continued to do so. The original contract was tied up with so much more, that it was not revisited until the FMARS concept was agreed to. Once the deal was looked at afresh, and in light of continuing growth, the RAF has been trying to wrench itself out of the deal whilst still trying to be seen as the good guy and provider of a much valued service. That is why when HIAL stated that at a certain date it would be capable of providing its own service, all at Lossie and above were more than happy to draw stumps.

What :mad: right do NATS have to do any delegation of uncontrolled airspace?

So if Inverness finally get a radar shouldn't this mean that they will take on the Kinloss/Lossie app task for free for a few years to restore the quid pro quo? :)

I'd imagine it's historical; from the days before NATS when it was all CAA - regulators & providers in the same happy company.;)