PPRuNe Forums - Inverness Radar

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Inverness radar ??

Any timescale as to when Inverness radar might be turning and burning? Can only be an improvement compared to the present Lossie radar arrangement.

And might CAS follow in time?

:cool:

Are the 'spies' able to report anything further regarding EGPE radar? All seems to have gone quiet.

Are Lossiemouth going to continue to provide the service on the ADRs to/from EGPE until the new service is in place? :confused:

From the minutes of the last HIAL Board Meeting:

Quote:

HIAL had originally invited three suppliers to tender for the contract to install radar at Inverness airport. The project is separated into two elements phase one, which is to take the radar feed from Lossiemouth and set up a consol in the Inverness control tower with HIAL trained controllers, and phase two, to install a dedicated HIAL radar. One of the suppliers had taken no account of HIAL s long term view so was discounted. One of the remaining two suppliers then advised that it was not interested in continuing with discussions. The Board asked about the costs involved with phase one. Mr Lyon explained that the budget for 2006/07 provided for costs of £500,000 for phase one. This comprised costs for a project manager, staff costs for training, radar feed from Lossiemouth and capital costs of creating a consol in the control tower. The Board asked whether we would be able to recharge the cost to operators but was advised that this was unlikely. The Board requested a further paper which clearly outlined the costs and risks so it could consider in more detail.

Well who ever it will be at Inverness - good luck! It can be a busy bit of airspace around there - not just a sleepy hollow! During the Neptune Warrior exercises with departures/recoveries to Lossimeouth and Kinloss - it can be quite sporty!:uhoh:

HIAL's web site had been advertising an ATCO vacancy for EGPE for the past couple of weeks, looks like it has now been filled.

Quote from the Inverness Courier Friday July 21, 2006

'Seven-day radar cover should be in place at the airport by summer 2007,...'

Now, I know it's only a local paper and that journalists have a tendancy to mould throw-away, off-the-record remarks into facts, but is this true? :confused:

Have Hial placed any ads for radar ATCOs recently? I saw the ad for Radar rated Atcos with OJTI a few months back but did I miss any others? Has there been anything in Flight?

My understandning is that HIAL have no radar rated ATCOs (I may be wrong though). They'd have to go some to be off the ground next summer without some serious recruiting. Unless of course they've had a program of sending their own staff on APS courses for some time.

Do the spies know anything?

The only HIAL unit that has radar is Sumburgh.That service is provided by NATS from Aberdeen.
Good luck to HIAL if they want to do it themselves or with Marshalls.Experienced approach radar controllers are difficult to come by....;)

Confused me when I passed through Inverness area on a FIS the other week and was given a discrete squawk - and it wasn't a Lossie squawk because Inverness changed my squawk prior to handover to Lossie.

What was that about?

NS

If you were given anything other than 7000 but not told you were identified, then it's just conspicuity for other units ie this aircraft is talking to Inverness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevvron

If you were given anything other than 7000 but not told you were identified, then it's just conspicuity for other units ie this aircraft is talking to Inverness.

Thanks for that. Wasn't aware Inverness had any conspicuity codes allocated and it's not listed in the AIP, unlike other non-radar units such as Carlisle and Dundee. Can't recall what the allocated squak was but AFAIR it wasn't one of the familiar 37xx Lossie ones.
NS

'Seven-day radar cover should be in place at the airport by summer 2007,...'
Glad to see that Inverness will be MARSHALLing their resources for this improvement.
Could be a historic moment when the first radar service is due to be provided, make sure you take a video-CAM; BRIDGE too far? Who knows!

Nice to see HIAL are taking the move to radar for EGPE. Given the current level of traffic at the airport and the plans for the future, it's definately the way forward.

Being so close to Lossie/Kinloss, I would have thought radar would be essential for the safety of PT aircraft in the absence of regulated airspace, especially when carrying out iap's in IMC.

Any jobs in the pipeline? :hmm:
Can anyone 'in-the-know' at HIAL dilvulge any info? :E

HIAL have an excellent record of training their own atco's from scratch.

Although they're going to need a few experienced, fully qualified atcos to get the project up and running, I would hope that they can find the cash to invest in training some of the younger atco's who've served HIAL so well doing ADC/APC at some of the far flung points of the Scottish universe.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the age range at Inverness is not as young as it used to be. If that is the case, although they're entitled to be considered for radar training, they'd have to pass the apptitude tests and convince the company that they'd be a good investment.
That's not a dig at the older atco's - being old and decrepid myself - I know what the practicalities of such considerations are.

I've resisted posting here until now, but I have to respond to that niknak.

Quote:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the age range at Inverness is not as young as it used to be. If that is the case, although they're entitled to be considered for radar training, they'd have to pass the apptitude tests and convince the company that they'd be a good investment.
That's not a dig at the older atco's - being old and decrepid myself - I know what the practicalities of such considerations are.

There are 8 full time Atcos at Inverness. The majority are mid 30s to mid 40s and would appreciate the opportunity to progress to APS. The remainder in the upper age bracket have no desire to undertake any such courses.

Quote:

I would hope that they can find the cash to invest in training some of the younger atco's who've served HIAL so well doing ADC/APC at some of the far flung points of the Scottish universe.

It is worthwhile stating that each and every one of the Inverness staff have spent several years working at the more remote units of the HIAL empire. Indeed the only way to land an ATCO job at Inverness (until now) was to work up from the outstations.
Inverness is the busiest procedural ATC unit in the UK by far and for many years now, the ATS staff there have been 'making it work'. The Mon-Fri Lossie agreement is clumsy at best and dangerous at worst.
Weekends can be madness. 4 Instrument Holds and co-ordination with 3 different ACC sectors - 1 telephone line. GMC/TWR/APC - 1 frequency.

Quote:

Have Hial placed any ads for radar ATCOs recently? I saw the ad for Radar rated Atcos with OJTI a few months back but did I miss any others? Has there been anything in Flight?
My understandning is that HIAL have no radar rated ATCOs (I may be wrong though). They'd have to go some to be off the ground next summer without some serious recruiting. Unless of course they've had a program of sending their own staff on APS courses for some time.

The only advertising HIAL did for Radar ATCOs was through their own website. From this, they managed to recruit 1 Radar Atco with limited experience. Other than that, they intend to train their own staff.
At this stage however, only one Inverness ATCO has been sent on and completed a radar course. HIAL ATS Management have had the opportunity to send 2 or 3 other Inverness ATCOs on courses but have elected not to. This has caused much consternation within various departments as the time keeps ticking away! :ugh:
Rumour says that the Lossie agreement will end early next year whether the Inverness radar project is ready or not. :uhoh:

Quote:

'Seven-day radar cover should be in place at the airport by summer 2007,...'

I doubt it! :(

From yesterday's Press & Journal:

Quote:

08:50 - 25 July 2006
Plans to introduce local radar cover at Inverness Airport will increase the numbers of flights and reduce noise, airport bosses claimed yesterday.

Highlands and Islands Airports Limited (Hial) has awarded a six-figure contract for the construction of a new radar room to Belgian-based airport specialists Barco.

It is hoped that seven-day radar cover will be in place by summer 2007, using specially-trained radar controllers based at the airport.

The airport's radar cover is currently provided Monday to Friday through an arrangement between National Air Traffic Services and the Ministry of Defence, using the radar heads at RAF Kinloss and RAF Lossiemouth.

Four Hial air traffic controllers are undergoing radar training and one man has already gained his qualification. Externally qualified radar controllers are also being recruited.

Earlier this year Hial signed a contract with Marshall Aviation Services to develop the radar project and is working closely with the UK Civil Aviation Authority's Safety Regulation Group on the scheme.

The project is being funded by Hial and has been awarded a grant of £50,000 from regional transport partnership Hitrans.

Inverness Airport manager James Walton said: "The arrangement we have had with the MoD since 1999 has served the airport well but as the airport continues to develop the time has come to move to providing our own radar.

"This is a major project that will offer significant benefits to the airlines, minimise delays to passengers, and mitigate the environmental impact of aircraft movements at Inverness in terms of reducing noise and emissions.

"We are working closely with the industry regulators, the MoD and our specialist consultants to ensure that this project is properly phased and ultimately delivers the radar service a rapidly expanding regional airport like Inverness requires. Barco has extensive experience of providing radar control rooms in Europe and we are delighted that their first UK project will be at Inverness."

Passenger numbers have been increasing at Inverness Airport in recent years as a result of the introduction of several new routes.

In the year to March 2006, Hial's 10 airports handled a record 1,153,000 passengers.

How many ATCOs will be required to provide radar cover for the full opening hours 7 days a week?

I imagine 5 ATCOs (one recruited radar controller with limited experience and four HIAL ATCOs who are being trained) will not be enough.:confused:

SotN

Highland D.

thanks for the information, I hope that everyone, where ever they are, is given equal consideration for further training.

As for radar seven days a week, 0600 - 2200, without checking the precise formulae, a minimum of 11 fully rated atco's would be required.
I would imagine that if HIAL pay scales are proportionately applied to radar scales, they'd have no problem recruiting enough experienced staff to get the ball rolling (if they advertise in Flight), I would hope that they also go balls out to train more than four of their own staff, wherever they eminate from.

Quote:

Management have had the opportunity to send 2 or 3 other Inverness ATCOs on courses but have elected not to. This has caused much consternation within various departments as the time keeps ticking away!

From what I hear the reason for this is that they can't get the staff at the other units to release the said ATCO's for training:(
And the ATCO's that have the abillity for radar are going elswhere anyway:ok:
Still it will all come out in the wash:{ "or end in tears

Gisajob I think you're needed!