Manch. transfer to Scottish
 

Just wondering how many staff are actually planning to move North to EGPX from Manch. in 2008/09, assuming NPC is open........

Will most go south or elsewhere ?

:confused:

In summary.....

Many going or gone already to NavCanada including a good few very experienced and highly valued ATCOs.

The rest of us were told last week, almost as directly as this, that the choice is to either go to Scotland - or resign. Simple really and not much opportunity to go south then or now, as those that have tried or are trying to transfer out, will tell you.

There are a few souls around who will go wherever the company sees fit, some begrudgingly - some readily, but not many at all.

So as for how many staff are actually planning for a move up north I'd say not a lot, in truth.

What pains me is that it all seems to be for the sake of politics. It makes no business sense at all to force a group of people to live in Scotland. Scotland for me is a nice place - to visit. If I was forced to move there I would resign - no question!

Worse than that the original plan was to transfer MACC to Swanwick - makes a lot more sense to almost everyone except NATS 'management'.

Good luck to you folks anyway at Manch. and all the best in the future.

cheers

:rolleyes:

I think the attitudes of the higher management echelons within NATS don't exactly lend themselves to winning hearts and minds over the matter either. All this "you're with us or you're out" bravado doesn't seem to take into account the dreadful situation some staff are in over the move - with wives and families completely unable or wholly unwilling to move.

One wonders what say the French controllers would do in such a situation........

Keep hearing this word many. Just how many and to where?

I've heard that many of the ATCO's at Manchester are retraining in other disciplines, such as tradesmen, Don't know if this is true, but they now can earn the same salary as an electrician, plumber etc. rather than move to Scotland with wife and family settled. What do you think?

3 more good chaps off to Canada early next year and about 8 or 9 more making an initial visit at around the same time I believe, in the hope that NC might unfreeze this unofficial ban I've heard about.

Not sure how many have gone already. I can think off the top of my head of about 5 or 6 I think......

ILS 119.5

I know of only one - certainly not the "many" you suggest :)

And I think with a lot of people, salary isn't really coming into the equation.

I've got every sympathy with your plight as if I were based at Manchester, I would certainly prefer a move south than one up here. Even better would be staying put.

However, one thing puzzles me about the much emphasized moves to Canada - why, if uprooting a couple of hundred miles north to do the same job with some shiny new equipment is such an upheval, are people moving 3-6000 miles to learn a completely different way of doing things? Much more of an upheval, surely? Could it just be an excuse and those people would have moved to Canada anyway?

What sort of things have people back in Blighty heard about/from those that have taken the plunge and moved over here?

Question. Why is it so bad to move from Manch. (I take this is Manchester) to Scotland?

For an Aussie this equates with moving from Cairns to Townsville. Work function still the same. In Oz, we've had similar consolidation of ATC units, and it's generally move or take VR (voluntary redundancy).

Sorry. but you guys sound just a tiny bit whingy here.

DP, you're probably going to get some interesting responses to this. It's not quite as simple as a move from Cairns or Townsville to Bris-vegas, as they're still in the same state in the same country (Infact, if I lived in Townsville, I'd be happy to move to Brisbane ;) ).

Prestwick isn't exactly a thriving metropolis, especially when compared to Manchester. And there have been stories (truth to them=???, I'll leave that to those more in the know) of English families who have moved there and haven't exactly been welcomed by the locals (I heard one story of a controller's kid who had the crap beaten out of him on a bus).

The reason I ask what reports are getting back to NATS guys and gals about Canada is that having made the move (Ok, it's my second ;) ), that it is a major event. Here in the 'Peg winter is really starting to hit (just looking at the METAR and it's MINUS 29 C, and including windchill it MINUS 36!!!). Edmonton is 1 above freezing with wind gusts up to 35 kts. There are some major domestic issues (bank accounts, credit history for a motgage, car insurance, drivers licencing) that can cause some minor headaches. Then there's the issue of training (not quite from scratch, but it is different), as well as starting from the bottom of the pile again (the seniority system can take a bit of getting used to). Nav Can are also begining to move towards their new CAATS system (similar to NERC), so depending upon when people arrive, they may train on the current system and find themselves retraining on new kit in the not too distant future.

Don't get me wrong, the money is good, the lifestyle is great (aside from the mozzies in summer), and the locals are very friendly and supportive (the manager of the school here in Winnipeg is a very switched on guy). And I'm going to have my first white Christmas ever (no BBQ though, eh DP). I'm just interested in what has filtered back from other sources.

I have been trying to sit on the sidelines of this however I must feel I should put in my tuppence worth.

First of all I wish to ignore the way HR have handled th move.I am sorry what has come about but Manch you are moving to Prestwick get used to it!!!

I am a Scot married to an English girl ( oh the shame JOKE!!! ) and I have several English ATC friends.

I had no affinity with Prestwick ( I wanted to go to Gatwick for my posting twenty five years ago ) so it was a bit of a shock for me when I got a posting to th Centre.

I have heard kids getting "beaten "up for being tall/small/left handed/left footed :confused: etc just because your kid is English does not make him/her special.

As in everywhere else ( Manch ,Aus,Canada) it all comes down to Location,Location ,Location.There are some very nice big houses in "rundown areas" and if you are stupid enough/naive enough to buy a property in one of them well look out.

As for nightlife well I do not get out much being a family man but some of the "kids" on the watch seem to have a reasonable social life in Prestwick and there is always Glasgow up the road.

For pastimes for the kids there are football,hockey,basketball,rugby,karate,judo,swimming,
gymnastics.taekwando,dancing,ballet and two cricket clubs!!!

I have had one move in my ATC career and where I went made
Prestwick seem like a metropolis.If you come to Prestwick with an open mind I think you will be presently surprised.

Be warned the local Ayrshire accent is a bit broad ( it is not corrupt English its origins are "Auld Scots" ) so your'e child wille become bi-lingual : playground speak and home speak:p

It will not be a bed of roses but most people will try and make you very welcome.

Rant/PR over

AyrTC

ps if any one from Manch wants to pm me about any Prestwick social/family questions feel free to do so.

White Christmas Jer? Does that mean you'll be making an appearance on Boscombe sea front sans clothes?:yuk:

Sure...........you paying the airfare? Gotta be warmer than here. :E

AyrTC, check your Pms.

NATS politics and management
 

I'm not acquainted with NATS management style yet so can't comment about how abrupt perhaps they have been.

I can though comment on Prestwick and Ayr. I live in Glasgow, I have lived in Manchester. I liked Manchester but I think Glasgow is a bigger, bustlier city where more goes on. I'm not just being bias as a Scot.

If the Manc controllers want the city life they won't be disappointed by Glasgow(second best place to shop in the UK after London)

As for Prestwick. I was on a date at Elliots in Prestwick last night. The place was jumping. Prestwick is an affluent town. Ayr is a nice town too. As I Glaswegian I find Ayrshire folk are a bit different generalism being they are quite parochial. (I was brought up in Ayrshire) But I find that when I'm in smaller towns in England (Bournemouth, Southampton etc)

I have colleagues at the moment who work with me in the city centre but choose to live down there(35 mins drive away). It's not that bad.

I know it must be hard to have change forced on you. Is that not sort of part of this job though.

choices
 

Maybe to add a llitle bit more information to this thread or even to open a few eyes; Originally Manch were told they were going south. Then not...eventually. At our meeting with our illustrious new leader we were informed that Manch was going north, no arguments...ok
We were also however told that as he was aware of the multitude of problems this caused staff he would endeavour in any ways possible to lessen the impact of the closure. This being to help staff if they wanted to re-locate or even leave the company." To give them as much assistance in making their choices and offering as much help and assistance with the result of those decisions" Bloody nice chap.
To throw a spanner into the works then..
Firstly, our decision is to relocate to a southern centre...sorry chaps-either move north or leave the company.
Secondly(and the most ridiculous), EGCC will in the next few months issue a VN for VCR/APPROACH ATCO's. I believe it may be for 5 of them. I know of an ATCO on a certain pink watch at MACC who until recently was valid on VCR/APP and AREA. An OJTI on all three and I think an LCE also. Because of the new hours required in each of the positions, she/he signed over the competency for TWR/APP. She/he has applied in writing to return to the undermanned TWR/APP side of MACC. No response. I believe the new VN will state that AREA ATCOs are ineligible to apply. Probably the old chestnut of 'can't be released'. So an ATCO with an established family and lots of current experience who has trained most of the young TWR/APP ATCO's on pink watch will be leaving us to join a non NATS unit ( I believe a promising approach(!) has been made to one already) in order to keep family together (who can't move out of the country).
Is this helping staff and assisting them in their choices? Is this not absolutely non-sensical?

It is this very 'non-helpful, non-flexible' attitude that is exasperating us. Unbelievable.
Apologies to she/he for speaking out of turn but we used to all watch out for each other here. Sorry to be losing you.

I see nobody has mentioned "mobile grade" yet.

To do so would just miss the point completely Jerr..

Agreed. I just remember last time this topic came up, it was mentioned.

Why should the personnel at Manchester be any different to other NATS employees who have been forced to move to another part of the country/or a different country against their will?. I have little sympathy with my colleagues at Manchester despite the provocative stance displayed my management.

So which other NATS staff have, en masse, been forced to completely up sticks and move to another country then?

Allow me to state that personally, I will be going to Scotland as I like my job too much.

At some stage in their careers most NATS staff have had to move to another part of the UNITED KINGDOM in furtherance of their careers. There was a time prior to its closure that the only way to move staff from Manchester was with the use of dynamite, now they are submitting motions to conference about the lack of mobility. You have all had a plum posting and high standard of living for a very long time and I have little or no sympathy with your plight.

Has such a large group of NATS staff and their families had to move all at the same time, to another country before?

Well a number of years ago I was based at Aberdeen. Not a problem you might think but as an Englishman with a English family I found my wife was abused and my children discrimenated against. Even I found it hard to try and be at one with the locals. I have every sympathy with any English controller being posted to Scotland. Hard times ahead. Good luck.

Whats all this malarky about another country?. We are all part of the United Kingdom. Ayrshire is as rural as parts of Cheshire or Lancashire. Cheshire is nothing like Central and South London where I lived for twenty years. We all moved from West Drayton to Swanwick with all the domestic upheaval and provocation from management that you are experiencing now. The actual location does not matter and the staff at Manchester are using it as a smokescreen. Some of your colleagues do not want to go to another country like Scotland, so they go to Canada!!!! Whats all that about!!!!

In reply to Captain Windsocks experience I was abused for being a Northerner and living in "Sarf London". Thats life!

Strange that those who regard themselves as English rather than British, and who talk about England whether they actually mean England or really mean the United Kingdom, seem to have a harder time adjusting to life in Scotland...

Even in Canada, I get the p*ss taken out of me by English controllers for being Scottish, and they seem to think it's hilarious (here's a newsflash - it isn't). When the shoe is on the other foot, it appears some people can't take it. Face up to facts - a move from Manch to Prestwick is no more of an uprooting than a move to Swaniwck. Your money goes further for housing than in Manch or Cheshire, your kids get into what most people regard as a better education system, there's less crime than in Manchester and you even get live near an airport from where the south of England is an hour's flight away. Oh, the hardship.

Could somebody tell me whether it was always on the cards to have Thames Radar/Special move into TC........who will be moving to the south coast in the not to distant future. Just curious.

Yes I can.

Yes It was.

Rgds BEX

Thanks Bex. You considered public speaking in your spare time ;)

I love NATS
 

Nice one jerricho!

LACC/TC , here's a plan, we're gonna move you all from Nelson Mandela estate, Trigger and the Nag's Head, to a much nicer location, a mere what...80..85 miles from where you were before, nowhere near the M25 carpark, on the coast, lovely place to bring the kids up, and if the wife doesn't want to move, then its commutable, and if she does the extra banding pay and London weighting will pay towards the small difference in housing costs.

Now then MACC, here's what happens to you....

NO TRANSFERS OUT whatsoever, apart form VNs, but if the VNs for ADC/APC then forget it (even if you are valid, or just need a quick LCE)

No Area people COUNTRYWIDE can do APC courses, but hey, tell ya what, lets get those ADC/APC lads n lasses on some AREA courses, because that's fair.

We'll build a brand new centre for ScACC and MACC 400 yards from the old ScaCC but 6 hours up the motorway from MACC.
Sounds good eh?

Well, those MACC lads and lasses can get nice big houses here for half the cash of Cheshire prices (cos we all live in Cheshire), theres no crime in Glasgow or Scotland is there, (anybody see Shallow Grave??, never mind Trainspotting or Taggart) so thats better for them too.

The educational system is far better up there too lads, and to make it more appealing half the qualifications that were valid in England aren't in Scotland (Law degrees, teachers etc)

Hey and as a sweetener, that £800 a day retraining we paid all the NERC controllers which saw them bank a few quid to soften the blow of the horrendous move, we'll get rid of that as best we can.

As for the poor fella who had the pXss taken out of him for being a northerner in London, I can see how that must have been just as upsetting as the lad whose wife and kids got in the neck in Aberdeen. Genius, a perfect comparision. I'd rather be a northerner in London, than a southerner (almost as commonplace as Australians!)some of my best friends are southerners, i'd say it to their faces!

And we'll also move the Manchester watch pattern around when the move happens, cos we don't to trouble the poor souls already at ScaCC by moving theirs. Don't wanna rock the boat, baby.

My mate at TC says that the best job in NATS is Thames or Luton APC cos they sit there reading their BAND5 pay slips, doing the crosswords, laughing while the others all get battered 24/7 with planes.

That's livin' alright.........I love this company!

...we're on brink of bankruptcy one minute, the next we can afford more plasma TVs than Comet in the CTC (bet no restrooms have one), stupid boarding cards, and an NPC webcam, whatever next? Answers on a postcard.

Jer,

I seem to remember a watch meeting not a few years ago where a certain manager denied that there were plans to move Thames/SVFR over to TC.

Shermanator:

So you`ll be resigning soon then?


Missing you already!

(someone who was posted from Scotland some years ago against his will)

For the controllers being forced to move north, whilst badly organised and unpopular, they will be able to cope. The disruption to spouse & kids is horrendous. Talk about straining a relationship! No wonder everyone is considering there options. The same crap happened here in Canada and they're still complaining some 6 years later (and it was only 3 hours away!). People used to slag Serco but it seems NATS are using them as a model to follow!!

By the way where are the union whilst this is happening? Isn't being forced North wholesale a significant change in terms & conditions?

DC10RealMan........your sympathy for your colleagues is truly heart warming, I bet you'll give them a lovely welcome too!!

Is it just me or does anyone else think it was a bit fishy when the radar room at Heathrow VCR was flooded forcing the immediate relocation for Thames/SVFR to TC???!!;)

Slightly off topic I know, but was just wondering!

That's exactly what I was getting at Gonze and YW. My memory isn't as crap as I thought it was.

Can't seriously imagine anything fishy went on. At least not to do with the flood.........

It will be sad to see Manchester centre close. As one who, many years ago, visited Barton Hall, Preston (Northern ATCC at the time) I lamented its closure but at least it was only a move "down the road" for most folks. When Man SC folds it will be the end of an era..

Bloody good bunch of chaps and I thank you all for the humour and helpfulness over the years. I probably don't know any of you now (Rob Rayner and Harry Shepherd were my vintage) but I wish everyone well..

jb

Just to add a few thoughts.... all we at Manchester have ever wanted is for management to take seriously the REAL difficulties that a move to prestwick will have on a number of controllers lives, if we were all single and had no ties then i dont believe the move would hold as many worries for us. I know we all signed on the dotted line to be a mobile grade (otherwise we wouldn't have made it passed the initial interview!!) well if we are truely mobile why wont management even consider any moves to other units within nats for controllers who have a genuine and compeling case not to go to npc?? I can totally understand the advantages of a two centre strategy but the folk up here would be much happier if it appeared that the company were showing the slightest sympathy and made us feel that we are part of the future vision or destinations of NATS. These are all thoughts that must have been felt by many controllers who have faced a forced posting but i really dont see how our plight compares equally with a move from west drayton to swanwick. If you remember the relocation map that was up by the canteen then draw the same semi circle around Prestwick. I know there is some absolutely beautiful countryside in Ayreshire and for some here at Manchester that is a big attraction, but the options for houses, schools, social attractions and job options for partners are severely restricted compared to either Manchester, West Drayton or Swanwick. The overall picture for many is that this move will result in a standard of living considerably less than we have now.(i can just see DC10realman's response in my head already- what with the housing in Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Cheshire in general being soooo cheap)

to pick up on a few points, the fact that Northerners/Scots have felt victimised down south doesnt mean that it is just deserts if i or my family have to put up with it in the future, racial abuse is completely out of order no matter who is on the receiving end. Also people have questioned why people who dont want to move to prestwick think its ok to go to canada, and the simple answer is that for most area valid controllers this is the only other option available to them and if they have to move why not take a chance a lifetime to move Canada, and who knows the prospect of gaining permission to move on to the usa in a few years. Of those to have already made the move non have so far expressed any regrets, although only one has been through a winter out there!!
At the end of day we are very aware that there is hardly any sympathy (thanks DC10realman-nice to feel part of the same team) throughout nats for us and most here are just getting on with trying to sort their own futures out. Rant over

For Jerircho et al ref Thames / SVFR..

Yep, there probably were certain people running around telling all and sundry "No change Folks, you're staying here!" :rolleyes:

This is kinda in the same vein as "Our Air is not for Sale". I'm sure you'll remember just how reassuring that was.

Meanwhile, across the road (M4) the tube was ready and waiting since 1993 (when the 2/4 room opened).

As for the "convienient" flood, yeah I was VERY sceptical too.

Rgds BEX