Gotta say something....
 

Guys

your all bleating on about how maddening it is to have to move north.

Here's a thought - why do all trainees have to move south?

To get into this job - some of us have had to move our families south to a more expensive area - for less money etc.

If your moving north you'll sell your house - make a killing and more than likely be able to afford a bigger nicer house in some of the more affluent areas in ayrshire.

If you don't like that use the money to put your kids into Private school to keep them away from all the local ruffians etc.

The company is to blame not the people of Scotland - so give it a rest and stop whinging about how hard you are done by.

:ok:

Shermanator

I believe that the Scottish educational qualification in teaching is acceptable in England (my ex is a teacher [its also good for USA/ Canada etc] ) and the law degree is also the same it's just that the law itself is different - bit like Area and Tower ratings (both ATC but slightly different)

Rant over!

just for tired-flyboy.......

not all trainees end up down south and by no means do the majority give up better paid jobs to do this one, and even those that do run the risk of not even making it out of the college so always know the risks involved in applying for this job.

the other topics have already been covered in previous threads but to point it out again for , it actually costs the same and in a high portion of cases more money to buy a similar house in the more affluent areas of ayreshire (and remember that it's offers over in scotland and on premium properties this often runs to an extra 20%), and before you bleat on about the expensive hampshire house prices, if you visit the land registry site for average house prices, yes there is a differance but any extra is more than addequately covered by the band 5 pay scales.

With regard to schooling, looking on the 'up my street' web site as advocated by management within 30 miles of prestwick only one public school had results over 50% although there was 1 private school that managed to reach 75%,(5 or more gcse's at grades a-c)
also i believe the problem regarding teachers and lawyers is that the english qualification is not suitable for Scotland and not the other way round. rant over(again)

oh and p.s. i have never mentioned that there has ever been an issue with scottish people, it has always been about the companyand this mishandled issue.

Actually - all trainees do end up down south - the place is called the College of ATC and its in a little place called Bournemouth (the only NATS college if i'm correct) so yes all trainees do have to move south.

After the college is a different matter - but the premise is the same.

Ah the risks of the job mobile grade....

I stand corrected on the schooling and for that i apologise, but that in mind - somebody mentioned that it doesn't matter if your kid is english, welsh, irish or whatever...kids get bullied and that is a sad fact of life.

you may not have mentioned the problem with Scots, but it has been a subliminal dig running through this entire thread!

Lets agree to disagree.....fair dinkum

:ok:

whinging and ranting and bleating
 

Think the boy dangerous has covered the more salient points in the qualification problem, it may well be the case, Tired Fly Boy, that a scottish teaching or legal qualification works in England, but not the other way around, which is kind of the point.

Not much point in harping on about having to move your families south for less money to get into the job, you must have been well aware that you were going to earn less when you took the job, that the college was in Bournemouth, and lots of people get sent to NERC.

I have no axe to grind with Scotland or Scottish people, I like the place and am a big fan of Ally McCoist and thought Cracker was quite good. We all hold the Fatcats at the top responsible for the mishandling, and would love to see the CTC get relocated to Prestwick too, strange how that was never an option.

And to add to the fun, apparently we're taking another sector (no.7) off LACC next year. If we had regular enough flights we could fly down on our days off and wash all their cars too, and tuck them into bed after a hard afternoon shift.

I like being band 4 now, its good for the banter, but would love to see TC made band 6, now that would be worth watching.

Dink dank doo!

See, it just took a little longer this time.

watch it!
 

careful jerricho, or i'll steal your registration plates again!!

not to mention wipers!!

Sure thing Mr C. You get to Canada very often?

trying
 

When i've saved enough hard earned wedge, i'll come and hunt you down, am thinking of doing an ex-NATS employee tour of canadia. Could take a long time at this rate....

All the best for Christmas, old pal

I believe that either General Patton or General Curtis Le May who said quote " In the dictionary you will find the word sympathy between s**t and syphilis. Clearly this is Mr Alstoms new role model.

Ok Peeps,
This actually happened within the last 28 days....A [very well] Qualified ATSA3 at Manch applies for "similar" job at SCATCC.....
No Interview........Appeals........Then gets one, Flight to Glasgow, Hire car and Hotel [in the Prestwick area] Did he get the job?
From what he said [not rumour, fact The "Opportunities" of an ATSA job are [a] ACPO {if lucky} [b] nil
Still want to go north?
watp,iktch

I can beat that. A number of years ago I applied for a post at Manchester. I attended the interview, got a grilling, received a letter of rejection with a postmark timed before my interview. It is not unique.

Just thought I would post my 2p's worth. From reading this thread and countless others before it, the most obvious thing that sticks out is the sheer rigidity (spelling? :confused: ) and narrow mindedness of NATS management. Did they seriously think that if they told 120+ staff that themselves and all their families would have to uproot and move to Prestwick, the staff would all just go like lemmings without a murmur of dissatisfaction?

By the same token however, all this bleating on about being moved to another country is stretching it a bit far in my humble opinion. The last time I checked we were part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland & Wales) and Northern Ireland. ie we're all part of the same place. Certainly my passport is a British one not an English one. Likewise my wife's is a British passport not a Scottish one. Yes a couple of things are done a bit differently north of the border. The law is a bit different for all the english solicitors out there. But is a conversion course not out of the question? GCSEs and A-Levels have a different name and to be honest judging by the way the English school system is going, I think I will prefer my kids to do Standard Grades and Highers anyway. They also have (heaven forbid!!) different pictures on their banknotes!! What would have happened if everyone who is currently at Manchester had been posted to Prestwick to begin with instead? Would they have stamped their feet and refused to have gone then? Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......hate to play at devils advocate but we all signed the piece of paper when we signed up. I wonder how many of you refused to sign that before you joined NATS? I'd take a guess at none......

Having said all that, to all the Swanwick people with little or no sympathy with your Manchester COLLEAGUES, you guys have had it extremely easy by comparison. Don't try and kid anyone that if the shoe was on the other foot you lot would happily go 250 miles north. We all know you wouldn't. And yes we all know you had to move from west drayton to swanwick, a distance of what? 80miles give or take? I bet a healthy proportion (by healthy I would say 25-30%) of you didn't have to move house, have spouses and partners move jobs, move kids from school etc etc. Certainly not the 100% of staff who are affected by Manchester's move to Prestwick..........

Basically to sum up, NATS management are playing within the rules. However, they are doing NOTHING for employer/employee relations at all. And although Manchester are certainly being isolated by the rest of their ATCO brethren around NATSworld, if I was an ATCO at Cardiff or Farnborough or Prestwick or wherever, I would be very concerned about the way management have narrow mindedly set about shutting down Manchester. Id be wondering 'if they can do this to the 3rd biggest unit without giving any concern or consideration to the staff involved, what could they do to my little unit if they wanted to........?'

DC10RealMan
 

I'm not calling you a liar. Well, perhaps I am. But surely if you have proof of said incident and said date on said envelope your friendly local PROSPEKT (sic) rep would be rather interested in it?

I'd just like to thank my colleagues Shermanator and DangerousD for putting many of the points over more eloquently than I ever could whilst waving into such unsymapthetic eyes. I agree with everything you've said and our other MACC colleagues have uttered on the subject too.

Merry Christmas to you both as well, nice work :ok:

AyrTC. You sound like a really nice chap and, when I evetually get up to Scotland I'll be sure to buy you a pint and some Uncle Joe's Mintballs. I assure you it really is nothing to do with Scottish folk or our colleagues at ScOACC.

Vampy:

You are absolutely right, we wouldn`t be happy about it. However I think most people would make the best of what is a poor situation....and I don`t think the comrades at Manchester are any different.

DC10s dictionary
 

I thought Patton said you'll find Swanwick in the dictionary between Sh*t and syphilis.

Deepest sympathies you didn't get into MACC, would have been a real pleasure to have served with you.

We'll just do your sectors one by one for you instead, how's that sound?

Merry Christmas one and all!

How's that Band 6 promotion for TC coming along?

I hear we may be getting a sizeable part of Sector 5 too, after we get Sector 7 that is.......

Thank you very much Niteflite01 I'll have a pint of "Heavy" but you can forget the Uncle Joe's Mintballs I'm more a deep fried Mars Bar man :p

Merry Christmas to one and all

AyrTC

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 

posted 22nd December 2004 23:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"

By the same token however, all this bleating on about being moved to another country is stretching it a bit far in my humble opinion. The last time I checked we were part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland & Wales) and Northern Ireland. ie we're all part of the same place. Certainly my passport is a British one not an English one. Likewise my wife's is a British passport not a Scottish one. Yes a couple of things are done a bit differently north of the border. The law is a bit different for all the english solicitors out there. But is a conversion course not out of the question? GCSEs and A-Levels have a different name and to be honest judging by the way the English school system is going, I think I will prefer my kids to do Standard Grades and Highers anyway. They also have (heaven forbid!!) different pictures on their banknotes!! What would have happened if everyone who is currently at Manchester had been posted to Prestwick to begin with instead? Would they have stamped their feet and refused to have gone then? Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......hate to play at devils advocate but we all signed the piece of paper when we signed up. I wonder how many of you refused to sign that before you joined NATS? I'd take a guess at none......"



Excellent post Vamp, however you then go and spoil it with what follows...............................

"Having said all that, to all the Swanwick people with little or no sympathy with your Manchester COLLEAGUES, you guys have had it extremely easy by comparison. Don't try and kid anyone that if the shoe was on the other foot you lot would happily go 250 miles north. We all know you wouldn't. And yes we all know you had to move from west drayton to swanwick, a distance of what? 80miles give or take? I bet a healthy proportion (by healthy I would say 25-30%) of you didn't have to move house, have spouses and partners move jobs, move kids from school etc etc. Certainly not the 100% of staff who are affected by Manchester's move to Prestwick.........."


ermmmmmmmmm 25-30 per cent is well out, the majority had to move house(have you ever tried going down/up the M3 during rush hour, I agree some people didnt move (person preference) but the majority did, personally my other half gave up a lot with her employer to move, with a significant reduction in pay and terms, but hey it was worth it, and you are correct, it may only be 80 miles or so, but how many people do you know were transferred to West Drayton actually wanted to be posted there in the first place..................not many..................in my experiance and despite reservations , I really do think the move "south" did not have as an adverse an effect as many would believe( and no I'm certainly not from this part of Britain!!!!). I bet that in 2-4 years time the guys/girls at MACC with reservations about moving north , would not feel as resentful as they do.

Like you said "Unfortunately the nature of the job means that theoretically you can be moved around wherever and whenever the company sees fit (mobile grade and all that) whether you guys like it or not......"
Exactly...................................




One final issue, i'm still unsure why an ATCO at Farnborough or Cardiff shold be concerned about the "shutting down Manchester" (sensationalism at its best!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
How has it been shut down??????????????



Edited many a time due spelling/grammer.........but it is nearly Christmas and errrrrrrrrrrrrmm yes I've been drinking

Just a quick question.

If Manch. en-route airspace is to be done by Prestwick, or some sort of resectorisation between Prestwick and Swanwick, shouldn't NATS be doing some "change management" and have a proposal up for scrutiny in which the transition of airspace from one centre to the other centre/s occurrs? This should invovle consultation with the ATC union, NATS management, etc. Has this occurred?

I'm sorry if I should obtuse, but it appears that either your union hasn't been looking after you, or that MATS management have ridden rough shod over you and you need to do something about it.

BTW, Oz approach ATCs in Perth, Adelaide, and Sydney are looking at moving to Melbourne in the next few years. If you thought Manch. and Scotland were in separate countries, moving from Perth to Melbourne might be something similar.

ahhhhhb0ll0x,

I stand corrected on the figure i quoted (very much a guesstimate on my part!) however the fact is (and you have confirmed it), if a healthy percentage of people had wanted to they could have stayed where they were and commuted (and some did). NO-ONE at Manchester has that choice, WITHOUT exception.

My point about the smaller NATS units was to show what kind of a beast NATS management is. ie, if they think so little of the 3rd biggest unit, how much regard will/do they have for the smaller units? I wasn't suggesting for a second they were going to close!!

One final thing, what difference does rush hour on the M3 make to ATCOs working shifts that start at 7am (or earlier) 2pm or 10pm? As relevant as the rush hour on the M62/M56/M6 up here for the guys at Manch? Notwithstanding the fact that the centre is slap bang in the middle of one of the Top 30 busiest airports in the world with all the passengers and therefore car traffic that that entails......

Merry Christmas all! :ok: :D

Dirty Pierre you said, " If you thought Manch. and Scotland were in separate countries, moving from Perth to Melbourne might be something similar". Manchester and Scotland are in separate countries! Perth and Melbourne aren't!

I may think that this move for Manch ATCOs is wrong (spouses jobs, childrens education etc may not survive the move), I have
a nagging thought regarding how much support ATCOs from Prestwick would be getting were the boot on the other foot.

As a Scotsman can I ask that you bring some decent aspiring young footballers please? Anyone in the vein of Stuart McCall, Andy Goram or McRooney would help the cause immensely:ok:

Vampy,

If you can come up with a suitable and viable business case for having three ATC centres in the UK then I'm sure NATS management would love to hear from you.

Unfortunately I suspect the simple fact is that there isn't one. With projections in the future of reducing the number of centres in Europe from 30 down to 10 who knows what the future holds for the two centres that are left.

WF.

p.s. I assume top 30 means one of the top 30 wettest places in the world, it's certainly not passengers or movements ;)

Warped,

First of all, Smart Ar$e! ;) and once again i stand corrected. However, everyone seems to be missing my main point. I'm certain that business wise, the move makes perfect sense. My beef with the whole thing is the way its been handled. Management being wholly unsympathetic and heavy handed with the whole thing etc etc. Will be interesting to see what happens when the S7 sims need to be staffed by Manchester ATCOs in preparation for that sector moving north.............

Once again Merry Christmas all and hopefully a Happy 2005! :ok: :O

Probably the same as usual.

The ATCOs will whinge.
Management will offer inducements = cash
The ATCOs will roll over so management can tickle their tummies.

Just like the last few pay rounds, much dissent and absolutely no action taken.

Our powder is still dry, Ha f****** Ha !

Look forward to seeing you all in a few years time

We can have two centres. One in England with AC TC and MACC, TC and MACC as a signgle low/mid airspace organisation, have we looked at the airspace between TC & MACC lately?

The other in Scotland - abroad!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Just one thing to say for now....

Ayr-Rage youre nowt but a loser son!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Fidgell
I can't see how he is a loser but I can see how he is right
Prospero
An ex Manchester controller who knew 6 years ago that we were closing so took contol of his life and left. No ostrich me....

Minesapint - exactly the kind of attitude that gives me nagging doubts about supporting any staff south of the border.

What goes around comes around, remember that:mad:

I don't work at MACC it just seems better for the staff (certainly the ones that I know to move south. Part of the problem here is pretty obvious from the last post. It seems almost like the MACC people need 'permission' of some kind to work at npc - from certain quarters.

npc is political, it makes no sense to even have two centres in the UK anyway. How would ScACC staff feel if they were all moved to Swanwick!

minesapint

i don't think anybody up here would disagree with you in the fact that we would be as annoyed as you are with an enforced move south of the border. You'd get the same arguments that have been raised previously here about kids schools, partners careers,family ties, big upheavals etc. We can't argue and we sympathise ( No really we do)
As someone who is from south of the border i can honestly say that i have not regretted the posting here one jot.the people have been very friendly the nightlife varied and colourful (and cheaper), the golf fantastic, you've got 2 great cities within a couple of hours (or if you live in glasgow 1 hour) travel so the leaving a bustling city argument is not a valid one.
my point here is that far from being a closetted environment all of you would be welcomed and help offered if required.

prospero makes a good point though. This has been coming for 6 years and it would seem that the lumbering giant that is our management are not likely to change their stratagy for two centres.prospero decided to leave and get on with his life (good for him) i know there have been rumours of some crappy gentlemans agreement which has prevented more of you from leaving (which i think the union should look at) to work at canada etc. but the time for slateing the npc move is over, its going to happen. live with it or resign and do something else that will make you happy coz this job obviously isnt at the moment

Been brought up before, but the word here is that ALL interviews have been temporarily halted so Nav Canada can take stock of how succesful the "experienced controller" program has been regarding check out (validation) numbers and the actual training program being used in the centres. Training focus is also begining to focus on the new CAATS system (Canadaian version of NERC) which is supposed to be implemented in the not too distant future.

Oh please!!!!

You are a whinger!

Technically you might be correct, but it is really just part of the United Kingdom. It takes, what 6 hours, to drive from Manch. to Glasgow. That's how long it took me when I was there in 2000. You speak the same language, use the same currency, pay tax to the same government. Matee, I'd say you're drawing a long bow to keep harping about moving countries when travelling from Manch. to Prestwick.

Melb. to Perth is a 4 hour jet flight. Can't be driven in two days by a single driver. You can't pop across to Melb. for the weekend from Perth like you can drive up to Scotland for the weekend from Manchester.

I think your harping on the "it's in a different country" is petty and churlish. You miss the point. Any move will mean an upheaval for the controllers and their families. The move, if it is really necessary, should be done with the minium impact on the staff involved. What has been done here? And have you involved your union if you think that it could be done better?

DP, did you go via London??? Should be about a 3-hour drive from Manch to Glasgow. Manch to Swanwick, now THAT could be a 6-hour drive. Longer if you hit the M6 at rush hour...

To those who say that Scottish legal quals are accepted in England and not vice versa, not so. A law degree in Scotland (other than English Law which is available at Dundee Uni) and subsequent qualification is solely in Scots law. Having said that, there is a growing need for English solicitors in Scotland, and Scottish ones in England, and several major firms have offices in both countries. As for teachers, a PGCE is a PGCE is a PGCE, regardless of the country in which it was gained. Medical and dental quals are the same too, and though there are separate institutes of chartered accountancy, their qualifications are accepted by each other as equals.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Will be interesting to see what happens when the S7 sims need to be staffed by Manchester ATCOs in preparation for that sector moving north............"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not really to do with CC moving north, but how do NATS management justify moving what is in effect a band 5 sector to a band 4 unit? Did it suddenly just get quieter? Will the guys working S7 get Band 5 pay every half hour they plug in? Surely the union should be looking at this a lot closer. This isn't the first sector to move up from Swanwick.

And it won't be the last.

Actually they haven't had the courtesy yet to even mention it to the Union at Manchester yet. The first the Union heard about it was in a watch briefing 2 days after an official meeting with management who "forgot" to bring it up.

As and when they tell the Union about it, yes I'm sure the Union will do something about it, but again as someone mentioned earlier it all depends on whether the members are prepared to put up and fight or will they simply walk away and accept it?

Given the mood at Manchester at the moment I think it is safe to assume that just about everyone is well up for a fight.:ok:

Dirty Pierre, think you've had too much of your weak lager pal - I'm in Scotland so I'm not moving anywhere. I'm fairly sympathetic to those moving north (with aforementioned reservations). Thanks for backing up the Oz stereotype though :-)
As for using the same currency, I've had my Scottish money refused many times in England. We have separate education, law and church. They may agree in many ways but the point is they are Scottish, not those of another country. As a Scot I wouldn't fancy living in England therefore it's easy for me to be sympathetic with those down south having to consider a move north. Yes we're supposedly mobile but as a previous poster mentioned if we'd indicated we weren't too keen on moving we wouldn't be in the job full stop. Area ATCOs don't tend to move around too much, and short staffing will continue to support a stable home life.
All I can say to the Manch guys is that Scotland and this particular part of Scotland is fairly welcoming. Prestwick may be small but it's full of "outsiders" (I'm one) and I'm sure after the initial upheaval many will agree it's not a bad move at all.
Disclaimer :
None of the above shall be construed as excusing both Management or Union, the former for initial action, the latter for lack of.

Delta - to say we have a different church is a bit of a stretch, as there is no established church in Scotland like there is in England (the Cof S having no bishops to sit in the House of Lords, but then with Blair's reforms there aren't any "Lords Eclesiastical" anymore). But for those rare ATCOs who do go to church on a regular basis and belong to the C of E, the Episcopal Church of Scotland follows exactly the same litergy and creed, and incidentally is older than the Church of Scotland (presbyterian).

As for having Scottish bank notes refused, I have had them eyed suspiciously many times in England, but NEVER refused as I stand my ground and point out the the bit on Scottish notes where it says "I promise to the pay the bearer on demand the sum of X pounds Sterling". On a purely legal note, Scottish banks do not issue "legal tender" - only the Bank of England can do that as it houses the government's gold reserves. Scottish banks issue promisory notes. They are however legal currency in England, Wales and NI.
Welcome to PPRUNE, your trivia website....

I have been accused of having no concern or sympathy with Manchester staff. Fair enough!, I cant argue with that. Yet all we hear about on this thread is the plight of the Manchester ATCOs and their imposed move to Prestwick at the company expense to do the job for which they are paid. Chiglet has mentioned on this thread about the plight of the Manchester ATSAs for the majority of whom there is no post at Prestwick and redundancy, voluntary or not is a most unwelcome possibility. There has been no concern, sympathy, or messages of support for their plight from any of the people posting on here including some of their own colleagues at Manchester. Once again all we see is the selfish, egotistical, petulant, and arrogant display which chracterises some members of the ATCO grade.

It was 1996, on "Black Friday" which is the start of the school holidays in September I think. 6 hours is a pretty long time for the trip, but the traffic was terrible, and I included a 1 hour stop as well.

Negative matee! Quite sober when I did the drive and while I'm posting here. Besides, is our lager weaker than yours? I didn't think it was.

I've been told by our very own ex-pats here in Brissie that the Prestwick area is very nice, and there is even a pretty good golf course near the centre. Of course I don't know how good the local rugby team is, as the Sale rugby team (near Manchester) are pretty good and doing very nicely again this year.