Heathrow get what they deserve

[055166k]

Heathrow workload versus Staff numbers

You guys deserve whatever you can get. Serious suggestion.......in order to staff properly and avoid controller burnout why not completely close down ATC 2300-0600. There are not all that many night movements compared to the disproportionate demand on staffing, especially when those staff are such a scarce and dwindling resource. If you were looked after a little better there may be a happy unit buried in there somewhere.

[BookEm]

Well, I`m the one who`s resigning to get back to my Northern Monkey hometown. It`s no secret who I am then and yes thanks Yellow Snow that means I`ve worked out this modern technology so shut up before you even start. Anyway, I`ll miss working at Heathrow because I really enjoy the job and enjoy working with most people there and even though I`ll be long gone and will own most of `Alifax I still really hope that things will improve at EGLL. 15k for example, would not now make me come back but it`d have possibly encouraged me to make my life down in the stinky south, against all my principles. Something needs to be done to stop everyone leaving and really one of the only reasons why there are a few left is lack of suitable jobs elsewhere. I can`t wait to start my new job because I`m sure my skills (even though I`m sure they are of a dubious standard) will be better recognised and appreciated by my new employers. Even though its a wind up I say good luck in the future with getting what you all deserve. Ding Ding All Aboard,Bye for now.



Land After, works every time! Chompety Chomp Chomp

[Point Seven]

BookEm

Well said my little disco dancing buddy. We're gonna miss you too. The VCR will be a quieter place without you.

Ponder this NATS management, bodies are on the move and you are doing nothing to stop it, other than cutting back staffing levels and taking extortionately high landing fees and salaries. We can read the papers and we ain't stupid.

YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW.

[Yellow Snow]

What started has a wind up by some o' the lads has actually turned into a pretty good discussion. From what friends in the company nationwide have said, that although they were initially jealous of any 15k payement they would still never come here because it just wouldn't be enough.

Flower, my apologies if my earlier comments looked like I thought the quieter units don't do $hit. I know very well that this is not the case

Gonzo, I actually agree with som of the stuff you mention about staffing. Yeh I said it.

To the soon to be Lord Harry of Halifax, Yeadon International don't know how lucky they are mate!!
I'd pay you 15K for one final tube pole dance

So there you have it folks, vacancies at EGLL, salary on the intranet, anyone on here interested?
What would it really take to get you down here?
Is there any future in nationwide pay negotiations?

I'm off to make sure my ar$e still stinks and drink copious amounts of alcopops in the sun after a hard pushing that tin

Bingo Jackpot Ciao

[Gonzo]

BookEm.

Sad to see you go, if only because you're not from the 'oh no, there's two at the holding point, quick, 10 minutes start-up delay!' school of thought!

But then there'll be no more passing you in the car park at 1435 when you come in for an afternoon, so it's give and take.....

Yellow Snow, you agree with some of what I said??????????? Oh my god! Tell me which bits and then I'll change them, quick, before anyone notices!

Gonzo.

[Wet Flaps]

If you're doing approach at the College, you get picked to go to Heathrow, you don't choose. That's the way it's always been. Why? Because we're the f*cking best, that's why.

I went on a visit to Manchester recently and the first thing I noticed was that the Tower ATCO was drinking a mug of tea. If I took a cup of tea into Heathrow Tower, I wouldn't even get so much of a sip of it in a 1 hour session as I'd be working my balls off. And this guy is getting paid the same as me!!!

It's not right, but it's OK, I'm gonna make it anyway.

[Yellow Snow]

Wet Flaps you my friend are the best and not a day goes by that I don't learn countless things new

Oh what the hell,
Gonzo

But then there'll be no more passing you in the car park at 1435 when you come in for an afternoon, so it's give and take....

I agree again, it must be the crate of alcopops already consumed!
But what you must remember is that our magical friend is on flexy time!

When you are short of staffed the unscrupulous ones can get away with murder.

[flower]

Wet Flaps ,

now you know the real reason why none of us will relocate I couldn't possibly control without a cup of coffee in hand !!

Seriously though it is an issue debated out here in the sticks, a number of us wishing to develop our careers have been looking to move onwards and dare I say it upwards.
The major sticking point in moving south-east bound has to be relocation, whilst house prices have risen everywhere , they by know means have risen in relation to the massive house price increases seen in the London area.

Giving up a rating to , although I enjoy the tower, radar is my preferred skill.

Training and the possibility of a failure to validate, when you have been valid and held your own licence for a number of years the thought of going back into the training system is hard , and whether or not it is true , horror stories seep downwards to us about the EGLL training system and the difficulties with local management.

Although we are supposed to be a mobile grade it isn't really enforced, I suppose until a certain mindset changes and we get decent management prepared to hire and fire , thus getting the right people in the right places these issues will not be properly resolved.

[Scott Voigt]

PPrune Radar;

I for the life of me can't find the pay rules and how we manage all the complexity issues and weighing... Don't have time to look REALLY had into it, but here is a web site that shows some of our pay stuff and how down in the weeds we get with it.

http://home.att.net/~oceanview/

regards

Scott

[WetFeet]

Differential pay? Sounds good, but how do you work it out? Who gets what?

Can't be number of movements as there is too much else involved, and it wouldn't put Heathrow at the top of the tree although they would like to think so, only when measured againt other airports.

How about variety of traffic (integrating military, GA), or daily variance of traffic pattern, availability of radar to shift a thousand movements a day, number of validations required to be gained and kept, length of time an aircraft is in the sector?

We regularly see comments calling Scottish a "holiday camp", there's one in this thread, but it is true, folk do come up from down south and fail to validate. Heathrow has a similar number of movements as the Ocean, but at Heathrow are aircraft on a sector for two hours, or are Heathrow working flat out at 4am? They can't be compared.

And as for being picked to go to Heathrow because you are the best! That'll be a big no, and dillusional, and a comment guaranteed to p**s off your colleagues elsewhere! You may get picked to go there but there are plenty of top cadets, or whatever they are called now, and very good controllers, at other units.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand the problems with travel and cost of housing (note housing not living, take cost of housing and travel out of the equation and you find the remainder is cheaper down south).

The bottom line is almost every unit could make a case for being at the top of the tree. Unfortunately it is the "Golden Unit" and the "Jewel in the Crown" that hit the headlines by making out they are the best and the Prima Donna attitude displayed by some, not all, at these units that quarantees no support when you want more.

Differential pay? Sounded good but finding a fair system, impossible! Trouble is, NATS is all about headlines so you will probably win your case regardless of whether it is right or wrong.

[Wet Flaps]

WetFeet

Heathrow has a similar number of movements as the Ocean, but at Heathrow are aircraft on a sector for two hours?

Are the aircraft 2.5 miles apart over the ocean? Thought not.

are Heathrow working flat out at 4am?

Nope. Heathrow is working flat out from 6am to 11pm.

There are plenty of top cadets...at other units

'Top Cadets' haven't been around for about ten years.


I haven't been to Scottish. So I can't comment on the daily task that you face. But please don't try to suggest that your job is as difficult as mine. That would be an insult.

[Gonzo]

Two different issues are being discussed here:

1) Does Heathrow deserve more money relative to other units?

2) Does something need to be done NOW to make people want to come to and/or stay at Heathrow?

To be honest I'm only interested in number 2.

At the moment, each watch is one down on complement. BookEm is leaving in a few months, and another is off on maternity leave at some stage. Don't know the numbers, but I guess a handful have gone for the Manchester jobs. People want out. Thames Radar/Special going to TC may well take up to 20. If so, each watch will then be two down, maybe some will be three down. On those figures I'm doubtful whether a five watch system will even work.

Supply and demand. We are now a more commercial company, are we not?

Due to the need to save 25 million or whatever was in the NATS News the other day, maybe pay cuts at other units will be just as good at making people want to come.......

Gonzo.

[Evil J]

Wet Flaps - your ignorance is appalling and gives a bad name to LL ATCO's. I have done both so I can comment- Heathrow Twr is not that difficult nor is it more difficult than many other places; I'll grant you its more intense and handles more movements but then it is set up to handle more than other places.

I can categorically state that since leaving LL I have faced far more challenging and "difficult" scenarios than I ever faced at LL. Sure I don't move 1500+ aircraft a day but then when each departure in the tower requires a minimum of 3 phone calls by the controller and the runway turn offs are so slow that 6 mile spacing does not leave space to get one away it doesn't take many planes to be working 'kin hard.

With all due respect take your head out of you ar*@ and go validate somewhere else and then you won't have to take my and everyone else who is living in the real world's word for it.

Rant over.

[ferris]

I'll bite

Are the aircraft 2.5 miles apart over the ocean? Thought not.

If the aircraft are 30NM apart, and the standard is 30NM, what is the difference? Never worked procedurally, have you?

Nope. Heathrow is working flat out from 6am to 11pm.

I've worked flat out at both ends of the clock, and I'd rather work flat out during shifts between 6AM to 11PM, any day.

I haven't been to Scottish. So I can't comment on the daily task that you face. But please don't try to suggest that your job is as difficult as mine. That would be an insult.

That is just a demonstration of having your head up your arse. Why don't you open your mouth, put one eye up to the gap, have a look at 'Scottish' or wherever, then you may have some cred.

I have seen controllers working in all manner of places, under all manner of conditions, and generally you find that they ALL pretty much are working at capacity, at least some of the time. Managers tend to use as little staff as they can, and that is the result. I have seen guys in backwater procedural towers working their RINGS OFF. Put in a radar, and they wouldn't look up from their newspapers. Is their work any less valued? Absolutely, it seems. Well here's a wake-up call. Work out how many movements you have at LHR, PER CONTROLLER. You'd be shocked at how you compare to many 'backwaters' (and god help you if you try it with the U.S.).
If you guys feel that you need more money, or more bodies, or whatever, that's fine. I believe your cry of 'relentless' certainly has merit. But you are the master of your destiny. Don't point at other guys and say "he should get less", try getting their help for you to get more. Maybe you will be able to repay the favour some time.

[Yellow Snow]

Ferris, Evil J and whoever else,
I think Wet Flaps wanted you to bite and hard too, don't take much notice of him his missus doesn't


Agreeing with Gonzo again (sigh). It's more about the busier units not just LHR, I'm talking Swanwick and TC. That need to attract and retain staff.

The watches at LHR are proper short staffed as I'm sure at other units this may be the case also. Just like MDI's being introduced at LACC when it gets going, this summer I have no doubt we'll see big inbound delays as 4,5 maybe even 6 mile spacing is requested due to staff shortage.

AVA are not being approved by management so the situation is passed limits, passed holding on by a thread. It's surface tension on your full pint!

[Wet Flaps]

Evil J
I hear that you had your Heathrow leaving do in a telephone box. Do they do catering?

[Captain Spunkfarter]

Let's not get personal Wet Flaps.

I agree with you to a small extent. Evil J left EGLL when it was fairly straightforward. As Yellow Snow and Gonzo suggest, there aren't enough staff and the task is definately more complex due to the constant work in progress.

Basically, we need to feel more valued. This can be achieved through good management techniques to make us all happy at work. We work for NATS, so that ain't gonna happen, so just give us 15k.

[ferris]

That's the best reply you could come up with? And here we all are thinking you are the best of the best !!

[Point Seven]

When I first started this thread off, it was intended as a bit of a wind up. However, there was a serious issue underneath it and it was the issue of staff disillusionment at Heathrow. It would appear that "we have created a monster" (copyright Shepherds Weekly!!).

When you've all stopped throwing names at one another, stop and realise the issue is not who works harder, does most jets, has most complicated job. The whole world of ATC thinks that they have the hardest job. Except Jerricho, he knows he's got it easy

No, the issues that need resolving are twofold. Heathrow staffing is going to the dogs and getting started down in the South ain't getting any easier. I know that this is relative before all the old fogeys start going on but all us youngsters have is our own experience. We live in rabbit hutches and can't get a decent start. This is why the idea of a retainer for people in the area is being vaunted. Not just Heathrow, but TC and City included. It's not exclusive, we're all in the same boat heading toward Niagara, so share and share alike.

I'm not claimng morale is worse at Heathrow than any where else but come and see for yourselves, it is crap. My advice to you would be don't come down here because you'll do an hour and a half in position and get the minimum break cos there's no staff. No eg's if one person is sick, full hours on the co ordinators, it ain't worth the hassle of the test day. But something has to be done, all we're looking for is to alleviate the never ending take by unit management. THAT is what this thread has been about.

P7

[Don't Look Now]

Ladies and Gentlemen please calm yourselves down or this very good thread will be pulled.

I left LL about 3 years ago and was valid there for 4 years. I had a great job and worked with great people. I believe that my colleagues were very competent, but the level of competency is high in all NATS units and can be true for lots of other units around the world.

I left as I felt that I had no future there. What do you do once you're valid, what can you look forward to? Perhaps an eventual posting to approach, but that will take you 10 years on a waiting list if you're lucky.

My opinion is that the problem is much deeper than a fictional 15k LL bonus. The cash might get a few extra bums on seats but it is a lack of structure in personnel development and a refusal of the mangement to address real issues (which is a trait shared by other NATS units and other ATC organisations around the world)

Due to family reasons I had comtemplated returning but was deterred by my application process which brought back all my old memories of incompetence from the management. After an initial contact I was given a date for an interview. I arrived (after considerable personal expense on airfares etc) and no one was expecting me. The meeting was concluded with the term we'll be in contact with you asap. A month and a half passed with no news, it was only after I requested their decision that a reply was given. An offer which was laughable, and one which I declined......

I hope that LL ATCOs get what they deserve, but I think it will take a lot more than just 15k.