Changes to working practices at LACC
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: southampton,hampshire,england
Posts: 869
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Controller availability at NERC
If a person is paid as an ATCO and holds an ATC licence it is surely not unreasonable to expect that person to control aeroplanes. Even though there are those who hold a diploma in work avoidance I am sure that in these times of need a sense of duty will prevail. The planner task can be picked up fairly quickly. No one who holds an ATCO licence, however covered in cobwebs it may be, should be beyond consideration. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work this kit. THINK POSITIVE!
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: LACC
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry 166k, but i can`t agree with you. To suggest that any ATCO at Swanwick can be returned to the Ops room before the summer traffic hits us is fanciful to say the least.
The majority of ATCO`s at LACC already believe that the planner onlys are a hinderence and they have been operational for the last few years.
To get a non operational ATCO up to an acceptable level would take many months IMHO. In the mean time what would you do with the many trainees already in the system, and waiting to join the system?
To get back to the original post, I have no desire to offer any changes to my WPP agreements, my working day is already difficult enough as it is, and I agree with you that Controller burnout is already a problem at our unit, and will only get worse.
The majority of ATCO`s at LACC already believe that the planner onlys are a hinderence and they have been operational for the last few years.
To get a non operational ATCO up to an acceptable level would take many months IMHO. In the mean time what would you do with the many trainees already in the system, and waiting to join the system?
To get back to the original post, I have no desire to offer any changes to my WPP agreements, my working day is already difficult enough as it is, and I agree with you that Controller burnout is already a problem at our unit, and will only get worse.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Here to Eternity
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"From my own perspective and since moving to NERC I have had no fam flights, no liaison visits, no courses, just continuous and unrelenting work. "
~~ Is that not what you're paid to do?!?!
From my own perspective as neither operational or management, it seems to me that the operational staff are in a strong position as it's clear the company needs every one of them and more.
If it was me I certainly would be wary of allowing in any changes to my working life - even "short-term" - which were clearly detrimental to me, my home & family life etc. I work to live... not vice versa.
However, I also don't think it reflects too well on the operational staff as a whole if we get a repeat of the "let's screw them for everything we can before we lift a finger to help" mentality. You can't spend as much time as people do on here pressing for a greater management effort to show respect and appreciation for their employees if you then want to turn round and treat them just as badly in return.
A bit of give and take on both sides seems easily the best approach... just be careful what you give first!
~~ Is that not what you're paid to do?!?!
From my own perspective as neither operational or management, it seems to me that the operational staff are in a strong position as it's clear the company needs every one of them and more.
If it was me I certainly would be wary of allowing in any changes to my working life - even "short-term" - which were clearly detrimental to me, my home & family life etc. I work to live... not vice versa.
However, I also don't think it reflects too well on the operational staff as a whole if we get a repeat of the "let's screw them for everything we can before we lift a finger to help" mentality. You can't spend as much time as people do on here pressing for a greater management effort to show respect and appreciation for their employees if you then want to turn round and treat them just as badly in return.
A bit of give and take on both sides seems easily the best approach... just be careful what you give first!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.... except the management aren't prepared to "give" anything, let alone admit to the fact that the mess is of their own making.
No, UNTIL I see some positive signs of change in managements attitude I see absolutely no reason to even contemplate any alteration in our WPP.
It isn't me, or my colleagues that have been "letting the side down". We have been doing exactly what are paid for : Moving aeroplanes safely, orderly and expeditiously. Difficult though that task is, it has been made harder by the crass decisions that our management have made particularly in the last 5 years.
I don't want to " treat them (the management) badly in return". What I want is good managers that can actually manage. Then they might gain some respect.
As I've said above. I, and my colleagues HAVE been doing OUR job. The management HAVE NOT being doing theirs. Now it's all falling down around THEIR ears, we are being asked (again) to bail them out. It is my opinion that bailing them out again will not lead to sustainable and much needed change.
Rgds BEX
No, UNTIL I see some positive signs of change in managements attitude I see absolutely no reason to even contemplate any alteration in our WPP.
It isn't me, or my colleagues that have been "letting the side down". We have been doing exactly what are paid for : Moving aeroplanes safely, orderly and expeditiously. Difficult though that task is, it has been made harder by the crass decisions that our management have made particularly in the last 5 years.
I don't want to " treat them (the management) badly in return". What I want is good managers that can actually manage. Then they might gain some respect.
As I've said above. I, and my colleagues HAVE been doing OUR job. The management HAVE NOT being doing theirs. Now it's all falling down around THEIR ears, we are being asked (again) to bail them out. It is my opinion that bailing them out again will not lead to sustainable and much needed change.
Rgds BEX
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Swanwick
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would agree wholeheartedly with most of what has already been said, at the risk of repeating myself we are not "Operational Resourses" but Human Beings who over the past six or seven years have been subject to tremendous upheavals in our domestic lives to fulfil our obligations to NATS as employees. We should now be allowed to have some stability in our lives after the opening of NERC, roster change, punitive restrictions on leave, ten days notice of the publication of our monthly rosters, endless changes to procedures on the sectors, etc etc!!!. One further thing, yet another change to our conditions which we will never get back, however "temporary", might just be the straw that breaks the camels back for a number of our more senior colleagues who might decide that it is not worth the hassle and take early retirement instead bringing us back to square one!.
I would agree with an earlier posting which said that we work to live, not live to work.
I would agree with an earlier posting which said that we work to live, not live to work.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am I the only one in NATS that isn't sick of NERC giving the rest of us a bad name. No doubt the spineless management will give them another bung for doing exactly what the rest of the company has been doing for the last 7 years - trying to make a bad system better.
How much of a bung does Manchester or ScATTC get for the traffic that NERC cannot or w'ont work?
How much of a bung have airport ATCOs got for regulating the traffic to meet the NERC requirements, or for accepting just as much new technology?
And I w'ont even start talking about what TC puts up with to cover the collective NERC rear end!
Standing by for a blasting.
How much of a bung does Manchester or ScATTC get for the traffic that NERC cannot or w'ont work?
How much of a bung have airport ATCOs got for regulating the traffic to meet the NERC requirements, or for accepting just as much new technology?
And I w'ont even start talking about what TC puts up with to cover the collective NERC rear end!
Standing by for a blasting.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I Think.....
Understandably you may have missed the point. What has happened at Swanwick is not the fault of the ATCOs and ATSAs who are there. It is wholly the responsibilty of NERC management
Indeed the operational ATCOs actually at Swanwick are just as pee'd off as you are, if not more so. In most cases they have uprooted and moved further south. "Mobile grade" I hear you say. Yet how would you like being told that NERC would open in 1996, move your family accordingly, and then spend SIX YEARS of unneccesary commuting. It creates more than a little stress, believe me.
All through the build up to the opening of NERC, the management were told repeatedly of the system failings from the ATCOs view (font sizes / ledgibility / reflections / manpower requirements / poor RTF/ poor telephones / headsets etc etc). THEY DID NOTHING.
Can you now understand the sheer frustration of the operational workforce at Swanwick?
You are probably right that other units have had better technology installed. The Swanwick system is an ergonomic nightmare and is not user friendly or indeed simple to use. That's why we had to spend nearly a year on OCT. The simple fact the Swanwick operational staff make it work AT ALL is staggering.
TC, MACC and Scottish are only being asked to fill their available airspace with aeroplanes. Why? Because the sectors at LACC ARE FULL. Not because Swanwick controllers "don't fancy working today" or are as you seem to infer, somewhat less than willing.They are busy with what they have got.
You seem to think that TC, MACC and Scottish require some sort of recompense for filling their sectors to TSF levels. At Swanwick this is the norm.
Airport ATCOs have indeed had accept lots of new technology in recent years. The difference is most of it works, is relatively easy to use and is user friendly. All the opposite of Swanwick. Juggling slots is not a new issue for TWR and GND people. Go back to the mid/late 1980s. There were more slot problems then I assure you and they were just as difficult to resolve. (Anybody remember the tents erected at EGKK when pax were delayed for DAYS?)
I repeat, Swanwick is a difficult system being run with too few staff. If you want someone to "blame" look at the management, not the frustrated operational staff, all of who are doing their level best despite the management
Rgds BEX
Understandably you may have missed the point. What has happened at Swanwick is not the fault of the ATCOs and ATSAs who are there. It is wholly the responsibilty of NERC management
Indeed the operational ATCOs actually at Swanwick are just as pee'd off as you are, if not more so. In most cases they have uprooted and moved further south. "Mobile grade" I hear you say. Yet how would you like being told that NERC would open in 1996, move your family accordingly, and then spend SIX YEARS of unneccesary commuting. It creates more than a little stress, believe me.
All through the build up to the opening of NERC, the management were told repeatedly of the system failings from the ATCOs view (font sizes / ledgibility / reflections / manpower requirements / poor RTF/ poor telephones / headsets etc etc). THEY DID NOTHING.
Can you now understand the sheer frustration of the operational workforce at Swanwick?
You are probably right that other units have had better technology installed. The Swanwick system is an ergonomic nightmare and is not user friendly or indeed simple to use. That's why we had to spend nearly a year on OCT. The simple fact the Swanwick operational staff make it work AT ALL is staggering.
TC, MACC and Scottish are only being asked to fill their available airspace with aeroplanes. Why? Because the sectors at LACC ARE FULL. Not because Swanwick controllers "don't fancy working today" or are as you seem to infer, somewhat less than willing.They are busy with what they have got.
You seem to think that TC, MACC and Scottish require some sort of recompense for filling their sectors to TSF levels. At Swanwick this is the norm.
Airport ATCOs have indeed had accept lots of new technology in recent years. The difference is most of it works, is relatively easy to use and is user friendly. All the opposite of Swanwick. Juggling slots is not a new issue for TWR and GND people. Go back to the mid/late 1980s. There were more slot problems then I assure you and they were just as difficult to resolve. (Anybody remember the tents erected at EGKK when pax were delayed for DAYS?)
I repeat, Swanwick is a difficult system being run with too few staff. If you want someone to "blame" look at the management, not the frustrated operational staff, all of who are doing their level best despite the management
Rgds BEX
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I heard that someone with the name of a bird has a lot to be blamed for. Is this true? If so why is he still working there?
I hope you guys at NERC have some of the answers.
I hope you guys at NERC have some of the answers.
Last edited by Over+Out; 22nd Feb 2003 at 02:46.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BEX
I think we've got the message that the problems of Swanwick are all to do with 'the management' and that it's nothing to do with you.
I wonder if you accept that the way out of the problems might involve you, as the majority of the 'management' is now different and they are trying to manage a way for us all out of it by using union/management participative groups.
I'm sure that you have already or would advocate 'getting rid of the management' as being the first thing you would do on the road to recovery. As this has effectively happened, what's the next thing to do?
How do you assess that the sectors at NERC are full? They're not full all the time (certainly not to the level that EGLL APC is full I would contend) and wax and wane within TSFs.
I think we've got the message that the problems of Swanwick are all to do with 'the management' and that it's nothing to do with you.
I wonder if you accept that the way out of the problems might involve you, as the majority of the 'management' is now different and they are trying to manage a way for us all out of it by using union/management participative groups.
I'm sure that you have already or would advocate 'getting rid of the management' as being the first thing you would do on the road to recovery. As this has effectively happened, what's the next thing to do?
How do you assess that the sectors at NERC are full? They're not full all the time (certainly not to the level that EGLL APC is full I would contend) and wax and wane within TSFs.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hydro....
Yes, you are quite correct that the ONLY way out is participative. I, and most the operational people who are now at LACC have been advocating this for years. It's the management that have not listened..... and look where that has got us.
I disagree that most of the managers "have gone". Most of them are still around, and still behaving in exactly the same way. Indeed the person most responsible is still in a very prominent position at LACC, and still denies that he has made ANY errors.
Some of the new appointees are attempting change. Before they do so, and in order to get the operational staff "on board", they need to acknowledge the FAILURE of the past management. They point blank refuse to do so.
You are of course quite correct, EGLL is full to capacity most of the time. But then, it is an airport with FOUR stacks. They aren't all full all the time. Not that it makes much difference to the FIN DIR, but the North and South Approach aren't always full. And the N/S DIRs can always refuse more releases when the stacks are full.
Flowing Area sectors is somewhat more problematic. The bottom line is that they must be protected from overloads. LACC sectors operate to TSF all of the time. Demand isn't always there, but when demand excedes capacity off-load senarios (to MACC for example) allow traffic to depart rather than get a long delay.
Anyway to return to the point you raised, yes we need to participate. I just don't see much willingness from "the management" and the staff have had so much mis-management over the years that aren't exactly in the right frame of mind to help either.
What is needed? A few BIG and VISIBLE concessions from the "new" management. FIRST.
Rgds BEX
Yes, you are quite correct that the ONLY way out is participative. I, and most the operational people who are now at LACC have been advocating this for years. It's the management that have not listened..... and look where that has got us.
I disagree that most of the managers "have gone". Most of them are still around, and still behaving in exactly the same way. Indeed the person most responsible is still in a very prominent position at LACC, and still denies that he has made ANY errors.
Some of the new appointees are attempting change. Before they do so, and in order to get the operational staff "on board", they need to acknowledge the FAILURE of the past management. They point blank refuse to do so.
You are of course quite correct, EGLL is full to capacity most of the time. But then, it is an airport with FOUR stacks. They aren't all full all the time. Not that it makes much difference to the FIN DIR, but the North and South Approach aren't always full. And the N/S DIRs can always refuse more releases when the stacks are full.
Flowing Area sectors is somewhat more problematic. The bottom line is that they must be protected from overloads. LACC sectors operate to TSF all of the time. Demand isn't always there, but when demand excedes capacity off-load senarios (to MACC for example) allow traffic to depart rather than get a long delay.
Anyway to return to the point you raised, yes we need to participate. I just don't see much willingness from "the management" and the staff have had so much mis-management over the years that aren't exactly in the right frame of mind to help either.
What is needed? A few BIG and VISIBLE concessions from the "new" management. FIRST.
Rgds BEX
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sorry if some of you took my comments personally. At least Bex gave a detailed response. My comments were not personal, but just a view point from outside NERC. Life is two way street.
I still don't withdraw what I have said. The pains that I appreciate AC went through have now been bought and paid for. There hasn't been much discussion of the buy back of days in lieu this year and the OCT payments last year. They are behind you, finished and over with.
This perceived need to have managers fall on their sword publicly seems a bit too vindictive. Much of the NERC management has changed and I guess most of the rest will go soon enough - don't worry the "bird man's" guilt is well known. I imagine they feel the big bang change may bee too unstable, so slowly slowly catchy monkey. Even those outside NERC associated with the latter part of the project cannot have much longer to go. Those senior managers that really screwed up in the pre 1999 days are well gone.
I always listen to Bex, he talks sense a lot of the time. But NERC really needs to take care of what the rest of the company is facing and putting up with. It is as if NERC has a great big chip on its shoulder. Get over it, move forward and get on with it. Give a clean sheet of paper a chance.
The whole company hears of your plight, so show some "can do" attitude and produce some results this summer to show your direct managers and directors that you care more about your profession than just a suicidal wish to see the company fail. Show this co-operation and I am sure the "new" managers will move towards the concessions you seek.
Nerc has a unique culture compared to other units I have seen or worked in. It doesn't mean it is the right culture.......
There is no point slamming into me again, as this is the last post I will make on this forum.
Good bye and good luck.
I still don't withdraw what I have said. The pains that I appreciate AC went through have now been bought and paid for. There hasn't been much discussion of the buy back of days in lieu this year and the OCT payments last year. They are behind you, finished and over with.
This perceived need to have managers fall on their sword publicly seems a bit too vindictive. Much of the NERC management has changed and I guess most of the rest will go soon enough - don't worry the "bird man's" guilt is well known. I imagine they feel the big bang change may bee too unstable, so slowly slowly catchy monkey. Even those outside NERC associated with the latter part of the project cannot have much longer to go. Those senior managers that really screwed up in the pre 1999 days are well gone.
I always listen to Bex, he talks sense a lot of the time. But NERC really needs to take care of what the rest of the company is facing and putting up with. It is as if NERC has a great big chip on its shoulder. Get over it, move forward and get on with it. Give a clean sheet of paper a chance.
The whole company hears of your plight, so show some "can do" attitude and produce some results this summer to show your direct managers and directors that you care more about your profession than just a suicidal wish to see the company fail. Show this co-operation and I am sure the "new" managers will move towards the concessions you seek.
Nerc has a unique culture compared to other units I have seen or worked in. It doesn't mean it is the right culture.......
There is no point slamming into me again, as this is the last post I will make on this forum.
Good bye and good luck.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I Think....
Try to rise above it, and continue posting. ALL viewpoints are welcome in my opinion. I personally may not agree, but then that doesn't make anyones viewpoint less valid.
In the end it's the debate that matters.
Best rgds
BEX
Try to rise above it, and continue posting. ALL viewpoints are welcome in my opinion. I personally may not agree, but then that doesn't make anyones viewpoint less valid.
In the end it's the debate that matters.
Best rgds
BEX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IThink. I said you were ill informed and I maintain that position.
You were the one who raised the issue of "bungs".
Do you really know why the payments were made to the LACC staff 2 years ago? Well it had NOTHING to do with the system or even a sweetener for the c**p we had to go through. It was a recognition that staff were going to have spend many of their days off away from home accruing Days in Lieu with no prospect of them being able to take such time off and management couldn't afford for us to take those days off without a massive impact on the customers.
Indeed I accrued over 15 days in 2001 just because of my OCT programme, 10 of which I sold at the time and have only just been able to sell the outstanding days. I would much rather have had the time away from LACC with my family but there is no prospect that the WP agreement will allow extra leave columns to allow staff to get their rightful time off-even 2 years after it was worked. The situation at other units is radically different in that staff are able to take time in lieu owed relatively quickly within their roster and so the need to buy back doesn't apply.
I hope this clears up the perceptions within the rest of the company on this matter.
On a slightly different note. It is true that the sectors are not always at capacity but LACC suffered in excess of 50 overloads in it's first year of operation-probably more than every other NATS unit put together. Hardly a case of us not pulling our weight for the good of NATS. In fact I understand the new DGM saw a particularly bad overload for himself recently so at least there will be a realisation in upper levels of the crap equipment and particularly RT quality that we have to put up with.
There is a "can do" attitude at LACC but not at any cost. and if things are so good down here there will always be vacancies for those that volunteer.
You were the one who raised the issue of "bungs".
Do you really know why the payments were made to the LACC staff 2 years ago? Well it had NOTHING to do with the system or even a sweetener for the c**p we had to go through. It was a recognition that staff were going to have spend many of their days off away from home accruing Days in Lieu with no prospect of them being able to take such time off and management couldn't afford for us to take those days off without a massive impact on the customers.
Indeed I accrued over 15 days in 2001 just because of my OCT programme, 10 of which I sold at the time and have only just been able to sell the outstanding days. I would much rather have had the time away from LACC with my family but there is no prospect that the WP agreement will allow extra leave columns to allow staff to get their rightful time off-even 2 years after it was worked. The situation at other units is radically different in that staff are able to take time in lieu owed relatively quickly within their roster and so the need to buy back doesn't apply.
I hope this clears up the perceptions within the rest of the company on this matter.
On a slightly different note. It is true that the sectors are not always at capacity but LACC suffered in excess of 50 overloads in it's first year of operation-probably more than every other NATS unit put together. Hardly a case of us not pulling our weight for the good of NATS. In fact I understand the new DGM saw a particularly bad overload for himself recently so at least there will be a realisation in upper levels of the crap equipment and particularly RT quality that we have to put up with.
There is a "can do" attitude at LACC but not at any cost. and if things are so good down here there will always be vacancies for those that volunteer.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The situation at other units is radically different in that staff are able to take time in lieu owed relatively quickly within their roster and so the need to buy back doesn't apply.
Don't think so....... some of our guys are in the process of selling back 15 + days because they cannot get them off. Probably not at the same rate you got either.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
probably not at the same rate as you got...
These rates were agreed between PROSPECT and NATS, so if there is a difference you'll need to ask hard questions of PROSPECT, our (yours and mine) union.
There are many people at Swanwick who have been unable to take all of their rightful ANNUAL LEAVE, due to OCT and the LACC operation limiting the number of validated people on leave at any one time. Is leave at ScOATCC restricted to the same extent?
Further, restrict annual leave and the result? A high sickness rate. Without proper rest or leave people get tired, and are therefore more susceptable to minor illness. Which unit has the highest sickness rate? I don't know, but I'm guessing it's LACC.
None of this makes me proud of NATS. However, I still enjoy my job. I still have every respect for my colleagues, be they at the smallest TWR only place or at Heathrow or on the Ocean or wherever. We ALL do a damn fine job.
A pity then that ALL our contributions still seem to be taken for granted by the management, regardless of where we work.
Want me to be a bit more positive? Easy. Show me a more effective, more participitive management style and I'll move heaven and earth to make NATS better. Until then I'll carry on doing my job, enjoying it and doing nothing more. My, and my colleagues ideas aren't welcome anyway. Recent events have more than proven this.
Rgds BEX
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leave at ScACC is less than half the norm until end of March due training committments.
MACC also short of staff. AVAs being used there to cover essential training.
Not a lot different anywhere you look.
MACC also short of staff. AVAs being used there to cover essential training.
Not a lot different anywhere you look.