UK ATC Staffing Levels
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UK ATC Staffing Levels
Just a general query ... and related to the Level Capping thread on the Reporting Points forum ... just how bad is the situation at the moment ?
Reason for asking is the amount of regs in force due 'staff shortages' that seem to have gone on for ages.
Is there any light at the end of the tunnel ?
Do you think NERC will ever reach full capacity ?
Thanks in advance ...
Reason for asking is the amount of regs in force due 'staff shortages' that seem to have gone on for ages.
Is there any light at the end of the tunnel ?
Do you think NERC will ever reach full capacity ?
Thanks in advance ...
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As Swanwick is 41 controllers short and it takes about 3 years to fully train an ATCO ,unless a whole number are close to completing their training you are talking a long time.
I would love to know in what way management have worked out that we can reduce delays.
Recently LACC have rung up most mornings as soon as we have started shift and put on MDI's , or even requested check before start with the co-ordinators.
We have taken such a retrograde step this year , I only hope our senior managers appreciate the morale problems for everyone concerned ,It does reach down to us at the Airports as well.
Gwyneth Dunwoody we need you to raise hell at the conference and in Parliament for us.
I would love to know in what way management have worked out that we can reduce delays.
Recently LACC have rung up most mornings as soon as we have started shift and put on MDI's , or even requested check before start with the co-ordinators.
We have taken such a retrograde step this year , I only hope our senior managers appreciate the morale problems for everyone concerned ,It does reach down to us at the Airports as well.
Gwyneth Dunwoody we need you to raise hell at the conference and in Parliament for us.
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As correctly stated above we are about 41 ATCO's below agreed full manning levels. The Deputy General Manager recently stated in figures to the NATS board that "assuming we have a 66% pass rate of trainee ATCO's this winter we will do summer 2003 with one LESS ATCO than this summer(2002) after retirements and resignations are factored in". Those figures are now in the public domain.
Not yet official but 99% accurate are that up to 20 Terminal Control ATCO's are currently in the interview phase with NAVCAN of Canada. As of last week 7 have been offered positions and are mulling their decisions. At least three ATCO's at LACC have indicated their intentions to me to leave within the next 12 months to persue other careers.
Still at least those of us who are left won't get bored!!!
Not yet official but 99% accurate are that up to 20 Terminal Control ATCO's are currently in the interview phase with NAVCAN of Canada. As of last week 7 have been offered positions and are mulling their decisions. At least three ATCO's at LACC have indicated their intentions to me to leave within the next 12 months to persue other careers.
Still at least those of us who are left won't get bored!!!
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I believe it was between 50%-60% at the end of last year at LATCC in en-route. However with the current pay offer now accepted by the Controllers union (awaiting ratification by the Joint NATS Unions), overtime is now available if anyone wishes to volunteer for it. There are some signs of interest, especially from the younger controllers, with big mortgages!
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NATS management are looking at other ways of bringing in more staff quickly. One is discussed in the thread in PPrune reference Ex-Mil ATCO's. Another I'm aware of is that there's a 'glut' of ATCO's in Eire and Scandanavia. There are discussions under way with the IAA (AAI?, Irish CAA!) to bring some of their guys over.
There's also the possibility of bringing in experienced aerodrome ATCO's who've got a good chance of validating at Area and sending the spotty youths off of CATC to the aerodromes. Also bringing Manch ATCO's down to NERC.
NATS management have suddenly woken up to the realisation that they're in a BIG hole!
Although the 'official' figures are 'only' 41 ATCO's below, when you factor in the very high sickness levels on some watches etc. etc. the figure is significantly higher. Hence poor old 'D' watch getting hit on for so many DD&C's, 'cause some other watches simply cannot man up for it.
Yes Swanwick can handle more traffic than LATCC ever did, but only when the correct staff with the correct validations have got their bums in the seats.
There's also the possibility of bringing in experienced aerodrome ATCO's who've got a good chance of validating at Area and sending the spotty youths off of CATC to the aerodromes. Also bringing Manch ATCO's down to NERC.
NATS management have suddenly woken up to the realisation that they're in a BIG hole!
Although the 'official' figures are 'only' 41 ATCO's below, when you factor in the very high sickness levels on some watches etc. etc. the figure is significantly higher. Hence poor old 'D' watch getting hit on for so many DD&C's, 'cause some other watches simply cannot man up for it.
Yes Swanwick can handle more traffic than LATCC ever did, but only when the correct staff with the correct validations have got their bums in the seats.
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The problem with bringing in "experienced aerodrome controllers" is just that , we are aerodrome and approach controllers ,very few of us these days have an area rating. So yes you are probably correct in saying that we are more likely to validate than those straight out of the college ,but it is not a short term fix.
Aerodromes also cannot afford to lose experienced controllers.
In the short term bringing in ATCOs from abroad seems the most obvious solution, but do they really want to work within a company suffering major morale problems within its operational staff, with the threat of industrial action from the support staff, and management who would appear to have had their heads buried in the sand for the last few years.
And can any one tell me why we are having to hold students going through the college for several months, making their training very disjointed. Is the difficulty training them on the shop floor ?
Aerodromes also cannot afford to lose experienced controllers.
In the short term bringing in ATCOs from abroad seems the most obvious solution, but do they really want to work within a company suffering major morale problems within its operational staff, with the threat of industrial action from the support staff, and management who would appear to have had their heads buried in the sand for the last few years.
And can any one tell me why we are having to hold students going through the college for several months, making their training very disjointed. Is the difficulty training them on the shop floor ?
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When you have folk passing through the college and then waiting for anything up to 2 years to start either IVC's or live training, you have to wonder ..... who decided to cut training section staff, budgets and courses...... ? .... what a senseless waste of human life...
As an aside, leaving an airport, going back to college to do the Area ratings, doing your IVC and then live training, will take a MINIMUM of 18 mths. I know - I've just done it - and I doubt the system could have let it be done faster, and I consider myself lucky, slipping straight on to an IVC and not waiting around to start live training.
As an aside, leaving an airport, going back to college to do the Area ratings, doing your IVC and then live training, will take a MINIMUM of 18 mths. I know - I've just done it - and I doubt the system could have let it be done faster, and I consider myself lucky, slipping straight on to an IVC and not waiting around to start live training.
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How many controllers will be freed up when Sector 33 transfers to Scottish in March 2003 and Sector 7 is also transferred by April 2004? With Scottish taking this airspace surely that must make a difference in the staffing of the remaining sectors.
Management must take ALL the blame for what is happening to staffing levels within NATS.
Staff morale has reached an all-time low....worse than has ever been seen before within the "Company". I, for one, cannot blame the younger controllers for looking elsewhere for employment. And I take my hat off to ALL the "ab-initios" that have validated in the past few years - it is by no means an easy task these days.
We have been talking about "pass rates", and how much of a percentage will validate at their final unit. Again - due to incompetent management in the past (and yes, it is still the same - nothing changes) - this is sadly a factor within the training regime.
It didn't used to be so.
When proper training was given to students (we used to call them "cadets"), the failure rate at the final unit was virtually ZERO !!!!!
But then again, you see, the old system cost MONEY......and that is the overriding control in EVERY SIDE OF AVIATION these days.
Such a shame, when it's now NATS' customers that are footing the bill !!!
Staff morale has reached an all-time low....worse than has ever been seen before within the "Company". I, for one, cannot blame the younger controllers for looking elsewhere for employment. And I take my hat off to ALL the "ab-initios" that have validated in the past few years - it is by no means an easy task these days.
We have been talking about "pass rates", and how much of a percentage will validate at their final unit. Again - due to incompetent management in the past (and yes, it is still the same - nothing changes) - this is sadly a factor within the training regime.
It didn't used to be so.
When proper training was given to students (we used to call them "cadets"), the failure rate at the final unit was virtually ZERO !!!!!
But then again, you see, the old system cost MONEY......and that is the overriding control in EVERY SIDE OF AVIATION these days.
Such a shame, when it's now NATS' customers that are footing the bill !!!
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Can you imagine if NATS Training management ever crossed over to flight crew training ??
"Now hear this Fourth Officer Scroggs, I want you to ignore everything being reported about us in the press. Got it ? Good.
Right, now that you've been on hold for 4 years, and you should look back on those 4 years of despatching and cabin crewing as part of getting the big picture of our ops., we've finally managed to get you on a training course.
There've been some changes since you saw the syllabus when you applied 6 years ago, so ignore the recommended reading list because it's totally out of date and will jeopardise your written exam marks. We don't supply any of the books any more either, so I suggest you pop orf to your local library see if they can supply you with some.
Right, your fleet of choice was Airbus. Sorry
old chap, but we've gone for the all singing, all dancing Boeing 797 flush-the-loo-by-wire Mega Hog. It's great !! Costing us a packet, but when it's up and running, we'll be the airline everyone else envies. Imagine, North Atlantic Transport Service will be the carrier everyone's talking about !!
Of course, there are a few teething troubles, but a few more years delay won't bother you..will it ?
Now, about the training.
Lot's of unecessary claptrap in the old course. We've gone through it rigourously to eliminate anything we considered out of date or not required. Don't you believe the stories going round that it's a panic response to the fact that we're going to have a pilot shortage soon. It's rubbish !!
First, we're cutting out CRM. We've decided that if you've hung around this long, surviving on a pittance of a wage, then you're quite resourseful enough already.
We've also adopted a company policy that we will only fly in nice weather. Therfore, IMC and IR ratings will no longer be needed. Sceptics say this is a cost cutting measure when in reality we are doing it to make your flying experience all the more pleasant; who wants to fly in those nasty clouds anyway. Remember, you're a valued member of the team now, and everything we do is to your benefit.
We are also pushing for a dispensation from the CAA to allow us to go down to one-man operations during the hours of night. Afterall, the workload is much less during those hours, so we don't really see the need for 2 of you up there. Oh don't worry, it's not costcutting, just sound economic sense for the company.
We're also giving senior members of the cabin crew a 15 hour course on MS Flight Sim 2002, and they will be on hand in case you need them.
I see you have no turbine experience yet. Well, not to worry. We no longer fund conversion courses, so we've come up with this great idea of asking Boeing to supply the aircraft without engines. It's a great idea; saves us about $80 million on each aircraft and improves the balance sheet no end.
By the way, you are licensed for gliders, aren't you... ?"
160
"Now hear this Fourth Officer Scroggs, I want you to ignore everything being reported about us in the press. Got it ? Good.
Right, now that you've been on hold for 4 years, and you should look back on those 4 years of despatching and cabin crewing as part of getting the big picture of our ops., we've finally managed to get you on a training course.
There've been some changes since you saw the syllabus when you applied 6 years ago, so ignore the recommended reading list because it's totally out of date and will jeopardise your written exam marks. We don't supply any of the books any more either, so I suggest you pop orf to your local library see if they can supply you with some.
Right, your fleet of choice was Airbus. Sorry
old chap, but we've gone for the all singing, all dancing Boeing 797 flush-the-loo-by-wire Mega Hog. It's great !! Costing us a packet, but when it's up and running, we'll be the airline everyone else envies. Imagine, North Atlantic Transport Service will be the carrier everyone's talking about !!
Of course, there are a few teething troubles, but a few more years delay won't bother you..will it ?
Now, about the training.
Lot's of unecessary claptrap in the old course. We've gone through it rigourously to eliminate anything we considered out of date or not required. Don't you believe the stories going round that it's a panic response to the fact that we're going to have a pilot shortage soon. It's rubbish !!
First, we're cutting out CRM. We've decided that if you've hung around this long, surviving on a pittance of a wage, then you're quite resourseful enough already.
We've also adopted a company policy that we will only fly in nice weather. Therfore, IMC and IR ratings will no longer be needed. Sceptics say this is a cost cutting measure when in reality we are doing it to make your flying experience all the more pleasant; who wants to fly in those nasty clouds anyway. Remember, you're a valued member of the team now, and everything we do is to your benefit.
We are also pushing for a dispensation from the CAA to allow us to go down to one-man operations during the hours of night. Afterall, the workload is much less during those hours, so we don't really see the need for 2 of you up there. Oh don't worry, it's not costcutting, just sound economic sense for the company.
We're also giving senior members of the cabin crew a 15 hour course on MS Flight Sim 2002, and they will be on hand in case you need them.
I see you have no turbine experience yet. Well, not to worry. We no longer fund conversion courses, so we've come up with this great idea of asking Boeing to supply the aircraft without engines. It's a great idea; saves us about $80 million on each aircraft and improves the balance sheet no end.
By the way, you are licensed for gliders, aren't you... ?"
160
Last edited by 160to4DME; 11th Sep 2002 at 16:43.
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Take up the Hold:
Short answer: NONE, since we do not at present have enough staff to open S33 EVER. In fact I know that on my watch we have NEVER been able to open S33, S11 and S10 all together since NERC opened.
This is what some people have been missing. The much-heralded increased capacity of NERC is nowhere near being realised because we are so short of staff. If we were able to open 33 and 11 and 10 we could offer something like 64 aircraft per hour through 11 and 33. We are presently only offering 30-odd (the combined 11/33 TSF), because we can't split, so the NERC capacity in that part of the world, 8 months after O date, is less than 50% of what it should be! Good, eh!
Short answer: NONE, since we do not at present have enough staff to open S33 EVER. In fact I know that on my watch we have NEVER been able to open S33, S11 and S10 all together since NERC opened.
This is what some people have been missing. The much-heralded increased capacity of NERC is nowhere near being realised because we are so short of staff. If we were able to open 33 and 11 and 10 we could offer something like 64 aircraft per hour through 11 and 33. We are presently only offering 30-odd (the combined 11/33 TSF), because we can't split, so the NERC capacity in that part of the world, 8 months after O date, is less than 50% of what it should be! Good, eh!
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As I understand it, MDI's are a popular way of limiting sector traffic because they do not show in the overall delay figures and thus improve the NATS attributable delay figures. In their defence MDI's are probably the only way of being sure that there is no overdelivery of traffic. Unfortunately on the down side they are a b*****d for the airfields and do little to remove the bunching which we need to control if we are to move more traffic. This is because however we restrict traffic getting airborne, tactical routings for the TMA task will inevitably change the route profile and hence traffic will naturally bunch. One of the problems for en-route is the relatively short sector lengths between the LTMA airfields and AC sector entry. This means late notification of traffic entering the sector and hence a very late realisation that an overdelivery is on its way. Pre NERC there was departure TV and pending strip production which did allow a certain amount of warning. Without these tools it is probably inevitable that MDI's will be used more simply to protect the en-route sectors.
Hope this makes sense
Z
Hope this makes sense
Z
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Bigears,
what else should I know about MDI's ?
I understand from an operational reason why LACC put them on, and I understand the agro it places upon us at airfields.
Is there something missing politically you are prepared to put on this forum?
Ta Flower
what else should I know about MDI's ?
I understand from an operational reason why LACC put them on, and I understand the agro it places upon us at airfields.
Is there something missing politically you are prepared to put on this forum?
Ta Flower
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Flower, the answer is contained within ZIP250's excellent explanation. I must say though, that I had thought that they were used more for 'political' purposes than what ZIP250's reply leads us to believe. Following what he/she says, I am prepared to change my mind.
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Pre NERC there was departure TV and pending strip production which did allow a certain amount of warning
