UK ATC Staffing Levels
Join Date: May 2002
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three centres?
until 1973 there were 3 accs in britain; london, scottish and preston. why dont nats see sense and make manchester a full acc to take the pressure off london/swanwick? or would that be a loss of face and cause major embarrassment, and this government (and it was a government plan) does not like embarresment.
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Canberra, There are, IMO, loads of reasons why not.
Just some for starters......
Where to put them
Where does the equipment come from
Ditto staff.
There is (was?) a grand plan to put Manch into Swanwick, no, NSC, or was it Swanwick again?
This would result in savings from commonality of equipment, staff in one less location, no rent to pay for Ops room.....
I'm sure that someone with more knowledge than I will add...
Just some for starters......
Where to put them
Where does the equipment come from
Ditto staff.
There is (was?) a grand plan to put Manch into Swanwick, no, NSC, or was it Swanwick again?
This would result in savings from commonality of equipment, staff in one less location, no rent to pay for Ops room.....
I'm sure that someone with more knowledge than I will add...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NERC
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Thats one of the things that baffled me. We still have Departure CCTV (oh the old days in teh darkened room sleeping off hangovers) or DETS as it is now...but only at TC. NERC have no access to it - even during FLOP/SwIMM when it becomes essential. Can anyone explain why NERC don't have access?
Cost is also very likely. At West Drayton TC was next door to AC so you run the cable from one room into another. Now you have to run the cable 60 miles, piping a TV picture this distance becomes very expensive!
Watchdog Delta Hotel
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canberra
when i left it about an hour ago manchester was still an area control sector has been classed as such for some time (8 sectors and soon to be more after a round of airspace changes)
but yes i believe cost of the ops room is a big part of why it will eventually close
when i left it about an hour ago manchester was still an area control sector has been classed as such for some time (8 sectors and soon to be more after a round of airspace changes)
but yes i believe cost of the ops room is a big part of why it will eventually close
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The backroom boys at LACC have tried and tried to get management to allow us to give the Ops staff Departure CCTV, but they won't have it. Its still a BIG bone of contention! Ggggrrr!
AFAIK Manch is still planned to be moved to ScOACC using whatever the CASPIAN team come up with. CASPIAN is the new platform for all NERL radar rooms (cost of £450M), including NERC II. Little room in LACC as TC and MASOR will be moving in, no firm dates yet, got to have the new Tech Centre open first (and the test teams moved out there) before the secondary Ops room can be recabled and set up.
AFAIK Manch is still planned to be moved to ScOACC using whatever the CASPIAN team come up with. CASPIAN is the new platform for all NERL radar rooms (cost of £450M), including NERC II. Little room in LACC as TC and MASOR will be moving in, no firm dates yet, got to have the new Tech Centre open first (and the test teams moved out there) before the secondary Ops room can be recabled and set up.
You guys STILL believe in "New Scottish Centre"?
NATS cannot afford it - that's clear. So, along with the pressure from Eurocontrol to reduce the number of ACCs in Europe, guess where you and Manchester will end up? Yes - that's right - Swanwick!!! Oh, I guess we'll give the ocean back to Shannon.
Maybe I'm kidding, but don't be TOO sure. Time will tell.
NN
NATS cannot afford it - that's clear. So, along with the pressure from Eurocontrol to reduce the number of ACCs in Europe, guess where you and Manchester will end up? Yes - that's right - Swanwick!!! Oh, I guess we'll give the ocean back to Shannon.
Maybe I'm kidding, but don't be TOO sure. Time will tell.
NN
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Regarding Manch etc moving to Scottish or Nerc it wont happen in a long time.The company is in such a mess that the disruption would be enormous.
I think the status quo will be maintained for some time with the the only big change coming in next year regarding 33 etc.
The whole of Nats from top to bottom needs a complete overhaul with the right people making the decisions this time instead of groups of individuals who no nothing about everything!
All that has happened over the last 10 years or so is the problems are shifted from one unit to another without actually dealing with the problems of staffing and reorganising airspace properly.
I think the status quo will be maintained for some time with the the only big change coming in next year regarding 33 etc.
The whole of Nats from top to bottom needs a complete overhaul with the right people making the decisions this time instead of groups of individuals who no nothing about everything!
All that has happened over the last 10 years or so is the problems are shifted from one unit to another without actually dealing with the problems of staffing and reorganising airspace properly.
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To answer the original question, I don't see Swanwick hitting maximum capacity for at least 10 years, due to the current shortage and suspected increase of traffic over this time.
Air Vent, one of the Scottish ATCO's is now actually valid down here, but still not a good pass rate from the course.
Mr Chips , about CCTV 'NERC have no access to it - even during FLOP/SwIMM when it becomes essential ' Why is it essential???? Just so the TC assistants can go to bed and not use the good old dog and bone to pass an airbourne estimate??? I think this is actually much safer now as during the usual mayhem in LACC we now know exactly whats coming, and not just lucky if we see all the airbourne times on the CCTV and get the strips out in time. Old system stank badly .
Air Vent, one of the Scottish ATCO's is now actually valid down here, but still not a good pass rate from the course.
Mr Chips , about CCTV 'NERC have no access to it - even during FLOP/SwIMM when it becomes essential ' Why is it essential???? Just so the TC assistants can go to bed and not use the good old dog and bone to pass an airbourne estimate??? I think this is actually much safer now as during the usual mayhem in LACC we now know exactly whats coming, and not just lucky if we see all the airbourne times on the CCTV and get the strips out in time. Old system stank badly .
Last edited by 5milesbaby; 13th Sep 2002 at 22:08.
niknak
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We're fully staffed, we have no recruitment problems, and our trainees will come on line at precisely the required time because we get them validated in position before the vacancy they're going to fill becomes vacant, and guess what?, we're not NATS!!So ner.. ner.. ner.. ner.. ner!!
Join Date: Aug 2001
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It seems the only way more sectors can be opened at LACC will be to change the operational concept of requiring T and P on every sector.
I would imagine the success rate for validating new ATCOs will be roughly the same as it was at LATCC. It's the system that needs to be changed so a P can support more than 1 T.
I would imagine the success rate for validating new ATCOs will be roughly the same as it was at LATCC. It's the system that needs to be changed so a P can support more than 1 T.
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Air Vent
In Maastricht we have indeed stopped taking on conversion trainees. This however is not linked to a high failure rate. I am not linked to management, nor am I party to their decisions, so what I say is only opinion and speculation, but offhand I can only think of a handful of conversions who have failed (or who have left, unhappy with life in Maastricht). I would say that a few years ago we were also vastly understaffed and used the conversion course idea alongside the usual ab initio training to get a quick burst of controllers into the ops room. This done, we now have (I believe) better staffing levels, so conversions are no longer needed.
TAKE THE HINT, NATS MANAGEMENT!!!!!
I have only skipped through this thread, but it just amazes me, with the trouble you guys are in at Swanwick (no offence, but it seems clear) that when I called your head of recruitment she told me I would have to apply through the normal channels for ab initio training,(I have been established here in Maastricht for over 5 years) then, assuming I passed the tests/interview etc I would have to follow the full ab initio course on ab initio pay.
I know of at least 2 other Maastricht controllers who would get back to the uk given the chance, but your guys and gals in the offices are not only effectively blocking us but also keeping your staffing levels down.
In Maastricht we have indeed stopped taking on conversion trainees. This however is not linked to a high failure rate. I am not linked to management, nor am I party to their decisions, so what I say is only opinion and speculation, but offhand I can only think of a handful of conversions who have failed (or who have left, unhappy with life in Maastricht). I would say that a few years ago we were also vastly understaffed and used the conversion course idea alongside the usual ab initio training to get a quick burst of controllers into the ops room. This done, we now have (I believe) better staffing levels, so conversions are no longer needed.
TAKE THE HINT, NATS MANAGEMENT!!!!!
I have only skipped through this thread, but it just amazes me, with the trouble you guys are in at Swanwick (no offence, but it seems clear) that when I called your head of recruitment she told me I would have to apply through the normal channels for ab initio training,(I have been established here in Maastricht for over 5 years) then, assuming I passed the tests/interview etc I would have to follow the full ab initio course on ab initio pay.
I know of at least 2 other Maastricht controllers who would get back to the uk given the chance, but your guys and gals in the offices are not only effectively blocking us but also keeping your staffing levels down.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Staffing
Yah fourthreethree, do as Down Ampney suggest, contact management directly. I know that in all of the consdierations to boost numbers, is taking controllers already licensed, where surfeits exist, ie IAA and Sweden. These folk are being considered to be taken on with a contract and a view to possibly become permanent.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Dross!!
Actually on the subject of Swanwick staffing levels one of the newly promoted watch supervisors is reported to have written to the manager suggesting that he might get rid of the dross. Perhaps this is to make room for an influx of high grade controllers with superhuman eyesight, no doubt a result of eating all those sprouts.//comments welcome.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Some of us wouldn't ever qualify as ATCO's but have other qualifications/experience and would like to work as an Assistant, positions which I understand are disappearing. If there were more Assistants rather than less to do some of the donkey work for those of you that control would you be in a better position to cope with the work load? Would we also work out cheaper for the service as well?