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Surveillance Radar Approach - is this still available at any civil UK airfield ?

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Surveillance Radar Approach - is this still available at any civil UK airfield ?

Old 5th May 2021, 02:33
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BaldEd View Post
Brings back memories of my approach radar training at Auckland International in 1978 using a Marconi 264 (50cm) radar with 2NM SRAs. Target was always one of the Civil Aviation Ministry's Piper Apaches (PA23) flown up from Wellington specially for us 'players'. After doing about 10 SRAs that day, I never did another during the rest of my career.
Jeez! That must have been fun! My experience of the 264 never included 2nm SRAs but the primary blip size must have been around a nautical mile wide!
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Old 5th May 2021, 08:37
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SRAs are no longer available at Lasham...!
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Old 5th May 2021, 09:08
  #43 (permalink)  
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SRAs are no longer available at Lasham...![/QUOTE]
A sad sight but a good innings. I hope a museum or at least somebody's back garden awaits.

Apart from the 424 and 430, which of the other older radars were approved for SRAs. Plessey AR1, AR15, Marconi S511, Cossor ACR6 - any of these ?
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Old 5th May 2021, 09:32
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Have used both AR15 and S511 for 2 milers
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Old 5th May 2021, 11:08
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Cossor 787, Plessey Watchman. Both for 2miles.
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Old 5th May 2021, 11:52
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Did one at Edinburgh yonks ago (2008-ish IIRC) when the Watchman was still there. Changed days...
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Old 5th May 2021, 13:08
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Have used the following, all approved for SRAs terminating at 2nm.:-

Plessey AR1, Marconi S232, S264, S511, and Raytheon ASR10

(But I preferred the accuracy of half mile SRAs using the 424 and 430, despite all their foibles!)




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Old 5th May 2021, 13:15
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My last SRA was into Scasta in 2011 roughly. It was a totally new procedure to the Norwegian crews I was flying with there whilst we were on "loan" to Bristow UK. Jolly good fun! We used to practice them in to RAF Leuchars on training flights in Robinson R22s moons ago - think the controllers got bored due to the low ground speed we produced.
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Old 5th May 2021, 15:31
  #49 (permalink)  
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Plenty of capable radar systems out there, with varying degrees of capability - 2 miles, 1 mile, half mile etc. I swear I used to see the LBA 430 get faster and faster as the approaching aircraft got nearer!

Is there any preference for type of display for an SRA or is not important ? We have had the traditional round PPI display with orange or green returns and maps, then the likes of FR and Barco raster displays and now what appear to be fairly ordinary colour PC monitors.
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Old 5th May 2021, 16:53
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ACR430 SPEED
The 430 did have two speeds , the faster one giving a faster update on the "blip" position. At Luton we didn't use it as I recall it had a serious effect on the scanner which you did not want failing . I thnk we even taped the switch in the slower position. As another aside about the same time that the 08 ILS was installed the radar head was badly damaged when it caught fire,( was it
suicide ?)
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Old 5th May 2021, 18:32
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We also did offset SRAs to 2 nm on 08 to avoid Caddington using the AR1. As far as I remember, on the 430, yes, we stayed on the slower speed, but moved the antenna angle up and down to (a) initially get over the PEs, and find the target, and (b), rapidly drop it again once clear of the PEs to keep the target in coverage.
HB
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Old 5th May 2021, 19:04
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Do I remember correctly in that even with the ILS available on 08 we had to do the offset SRA when WX was above certain minima?
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Old 5th May 2021, 19:08
  #53 (permalink)  
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Interesting to note that Controller and Tels adjustment of the radar was a thing back in the day. Probably wasn't allowed then but I'd be amazed if it happened now (apart from display stuff like range rings, colour contrast etc). Two settings only - factory and wrong!
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Old 5th May 2021, 19:11
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I think you’re right. And, of course, there was the strobe on the hangar at Dunstable.
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Old 5th May 2021, 21:48
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Originally Posted by almost professional View Post
Do I remember correctly in that even with the ILS available on 08 we had to do the offset SRA when WX was above certain minima?
I remember that being in the book, but for some reason, there was always a little puff of stratus at around 900' when we were on 08 iirc
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Old 6th May 2021, 07:10
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Spiney Norman View Post
Jeez! That must have been fun! My experience of the 264 never included 2nm SRAs but the primary blip size must have been around a nautical mile wide!
In the '70s, Glasgow only had a 264 so all SRAs were done on that (2nm only)
As regards termination range, it depends on what 'setting up' markers are installed and whether they are simple 'reflectors' or they generate an electronic signal which 'breaks through' MTI.
For a half mile SRA, you need a marker either side of the runway at the touchdown point (plus a minimum refresh rate of 15(?) rpm). The markers must show permanently whether or not your radar has MTI.
For a 1nm SRA, you must have one or more markers on the runway centreline but they do not need to be permanent so you can check the setup on 'raw' radar then select MTI.
For a 2nm SRA, no markers are required.
In this latter case, when using Pease Pottage radar on Farnborough LARS East, I often watched aircraft in the circuit at Shoreham down to just above ground level according to their altitude readouts; the radar being about 350ft amsl just south of Gatwick looks through a gap in the South Downs and it would be perfectly feasible to do a 2nm SRA to runway 21 (threshold elev 7ft amsl) using it even though it is a long way from the airfield.
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Old 6th May 2021, 10:43
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It isn`t available anymore after 2016 in Russia.



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Old 6th May 2021, 11:40
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PAR was fundamentally different in that it provided an electronic glidepath and thus had the same minima as Cat 1 ILS.
I did my last PAR in 2001; after that the thresholds moved so without a complete and expensive setting up flight check which wasn't necessary as we had ILS being installed for the new thresholds, we couldn't use it any more. Mind you we already had a LLZ/DME on one end and when that was installed, I made sure the touchdown point was the same as the PAR so we could do a hybrid approach; the pilot would follow the LLZ guidance while the PAR controller gave him instructions to maintain the glidepath.
My last SRA was 30 Nov 2008, the day I retired as an ATCO and 2 weeks before I became a FISO.

Last edited by chevvron; 6th May 2021 at 12:56.
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Old 6th May 2021, 12:56
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Danger

Originally Posted by Mooncrest View Post
Interesting to note that Controller and Tels adjustment of the radar was a thing back in the day. Probably wasn't allowed then but I'd be amazed if it happened now (apart from display stuff like range rings, colour contrast etc). Two settings only - factory and wrong!
The RDPS we possessed enabled individual controllers to make adjustments to the settings of their Barco displays, which were then saved under an individual log in. At HOW/TOW you logged out and in, and away you went. Ther were some advocates for standardisation who advocated a single setting, but some ATCOs settings were so appalling colour coordinated and quirky that it was better to retain the option. You could always adjust individual settings to suit at any time. Anyway, imagine trying to get the unit's ATCOs to agree on a standard setting......
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Old 6th May 2021, 13:16
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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chevvron

I retired in 2016. Usually I worked as an RW controller. Our rules are different from yours, and we had to use the PAR screen for every approaches (ILS I, II, III), only the phraseology was different. Now on the PAR screen, you can have information from ADS-B, MLAT, etc.
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