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Class G airspace info.

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Class G airspace info.

Old 1st Mar 2021, 10:35
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Class G airspace info.

Was looking at ICAO rules for classes of airspace and for G couldnt see anything about DTI (directed traffic info).
Is this provided or not provided usually ?
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 14:36
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Not sure what you mean by DTI - not a term I've seen? What part of the world are you using it? Is it locally defined?
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 20:08
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In Oz, we generally have class G up to A085 or F125 in the more remote areas.
if IFR in that airspace the ANSP provides DTI (but not seperarion) with other IFR. It is mandated this be provided, it is not on a workload permitting basis.
Sometimes with the aid of surveillance coverage and sometimes without.
Is this DTI service to IFR in G provided in most countries ?
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 22:56
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Never heard of it in NZ. Mutual traffic information is provided outside controlled airspace, and that's all.
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 23:09
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OK, confirming in NZ in G airspace traffic information IFR to IFR must be provided, it is mandatory ?
How high does G go in NZ ?
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 07:58
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I think in the UK this would simply be referred to as traffic info. In class G there is no requirement to pass traffic information but the rulebooks also says 'Notwithstanding the minimum service requirements associated with each airspace classification, the primary objective of air traffic services is to prevent collisions between aircraft (SERA.7001(a)). In support of this objective, on any occasion a controller considers it necessary in the interests of safety, traffic information and, where appropriate traffic avoidance advice, shall be provided. Pilots are responsible for collision avoidance (SERA.3201) and should be aware of the existence of factors that might adversely affect the ability of a controller to detect a collision hazard and provide timely and accurate traffic information, and when surveillance-based ATS is being provided, traffic avoidance advice'.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 09:24
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There is no Class G in oz. It is Class F (look at the services provided) and merely called Class G.

So, no, in ICAO compliant places (such as where I work in the middle east) there is no DTI in Class G.

Last edited by ferris; 2nd Mar 2021 at 09:26. Reason: edited to answer the question
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 09:33
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Originally Posted by 10JQKA View Post
Sometimes with the aid of surveillance coverage and sometimes without.
Is this DTI service to IFR in G provided in most countries ?
Take a look at ICAO Doc 4444 para 8.11 entitled 'The use of Radar in the Flight Information Service'..
Not officially done in the UK since about 1977 but several European countries eg France still provide this service.

Last edited by chevvron; 2nd Mar 2021 at 17:10.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 10:17
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Somewhere in Section 8 of PANS-ATM and also the GM to SERA.7002 (in Europe) traffic information and advice on avoiding action shall be provided to IFR flights in uncontrolled airspace.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 01:40
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Originally Posted by ferris View Post
There is no Class G in oz. It is Class F (look at the services provided) and merely called Class G.

So, no, in ICAO compliant places (such as where I work in the middle east) there is no DTI in Class G.

So does that mean that class G in the sandpit is quite a low upper limit with another class of cta above it (E,C,A) ?

Is it because Class G in Oz is not compliant with ICAO in that it provides DTI and is actually a more serviced airspace block the reason why it goes as high as A085 or F125 ?

There is a lot of talk currently about Oz having to adopt worlds best practice (USA style with E down to 1500agl !), but this appears to disregard the fact the Oz G is not like other countries and hence the argument doesn't really stack up in my mind on that basis.

Why don't they call the Oz G by the F nomenclature if it is that ?

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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 06:42
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To anyone familiar with the US FAA NAS rules, could you advise if there are any mandated requirements on what is provided to IFR flights in Class G airspace ?
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 06:56
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Originally Posted by 10JQKA View Post
To anyone familiar with the US FAA NAS rules, could you advise if there are any mandated requirements on what is provided to IFR flights in Class G airspace ?
Don't know if you've been reading this column much but there isn't a lot of Class G in the USA ; I understand it's mostly at least Class E with a base of either 800ft agl ot 1200ft agl and where there is Class G, no ATS is available, the much vaunted 'VFR Flight Following' only being provided in Class E.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 07:05
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No ATS in G provided in U.S. ? which I guess is why there is only a very narrow vertical band of that airspace ?

So the question is, if there was a DTI provided in G as in Oz how high could it go to ?

Is it possible the Oz variation on G with IFR provided DTI on other IFR and VFR when practicable is in fact already worlds best practice given its traffic levels ?

Last edited by 10JQKA; 3rd Mar 2021 at 09:18.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 10:17
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Originally Posted by 10JQKA View Post
if IFR in that airspace the ANSP provides DTI (but not seperarion) with other IFR. It is mandated this be provided, it is not on a workload permitting basis
Curious, do you have a link to the Oz AIP regarding this? Or other sources.

Sounds like an amalgamation of ICAO Class F and G classifications.

“Class F. IFR and VFR flights are permitted, all participating IFR flights receive an air traffic advisory service and all flights receive flight information service if requested.
Note.— Where air traffic advisory service is implemented, this is considered normally as a temporary measure only until such time as it can be replaced by air traffic control. (See also PANS-ATM, Chapter 9.)
Class G. IFR and VFR flights are permitted and receive flight information service if requested.”

http://skyrise.aero/wp-content/uploa...c-services.pdf
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 11:10
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From Oz AIP GEN.........


3.3.7.2 In Class G airspace, a traffic information service is provided to
IFR flights about other conflicting IFR and observed VFR flights
except:
a. An IFR flight reporting taxiing or airborne at a non-controlled
aerodrome will be advised of conflicting IFR traffic that is not
on the CTAF; and
b. An IFR flight inbound to a non-controlled aerodrome will be
advised of conflicting IFR traffic until the pilot reports
changing to the CTAF.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 12:25
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There are services available specific to UK Class G airspace; as I said above, the UK complied with ICAO procedures before about 1977 but this has now evolved into the following known generically as Flight Information Services (just a precis to avoid boring you):-
Basic Service - No requirement for the aircraft to be identified on radar; may be provided by ATC or by Flight Information Service Officers (FISOs) at airfields or ATCCs by passing details of known conflicting traffic; in many cases this information may be generic eg warning the pilot of notified intense air activity on his planned route.
Traffic Service - Aircraft is identified and is passed information about conflicting traffic seen on radar both known and unknown which may pass within 5nm horizontally or 3000ft or less vertically if showing an altitude readout.
De-confliction Service - pilot is warned about conflicting traffic as above and is offered avoiding action via a change of heading.
That as I said is just a precis; there are detailed 'ifs' and 'buts' in UK national instructions published by the UK CAA.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 05:32
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Thanks Chevvron.

How does a pilot in UK G know which of the services they are getting , (basic,traffic,deconfliction) ? Is it marked on maps what is avbl where ? or is it up to the pilot to request what is wanted ?
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 06:59
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Pilot request and controller agreement/confirmation (requested service will usually be provided subject to workload and one or two other things) - sometimes called the contract between aircraft and ATS.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 10:19
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Basic Service - No requirement for the aircraft to be identified on radar; may be provided by ATC or by Flight Information Service Officers (FISOs) at airfields or ATCCs by passing details of known conflicting traffic..
In the context of the original post, that is rather misleading. The (UK-specific) requirement is..
Given that the provider of a Basic Service is not required to monitor the flight, pilots should not expect any form of traffic information...
, but, apart from permitting generic information on known aerial activity, also specifies...
If a controller/ FISO considers that a definite risk of collision exists, a warning shall be issued to the pilot...
2 s
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Old 8th Mar 2021, 21:56
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In Japan Class G, IFR traffic are not permitted. Having said that, Class G exists only at relatively low altitudes.
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