Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Ground & Other Ops Forums > ATC Issues
Reload this Page >

The future is bright the future is HIAL

ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

The future is bright the future is HIAL

Old 17th Jan 2020, 15:38
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Moon
Posts: 212
The future is bright the future is HIAL

https://www.hial.co.uk/whats-hot/hia...ement-project/

HIAL have just issued a press release about their future operations. I hope the link above works. Basically downgrading PC and PL to AFISO and moving all other ops to an industrial estate just by the Kessock bridge. PB Radar will be moving there I presume to join PE Radar?
Sounds like a logistical nightmare.

Rgds
AyrTC
AyrTC is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2020, 18:48
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 152
Well the future is coming whether we like it or not.. I don't think the service provision will suffer. If anything, if you have controllers cross valid on multiple remote towers this can improve resiliency and reduce the chances of closure due to shortages.

It's a shame regarding the remote units. Island life is not for everyone but those who enjoy it will miss it. And for those who would have considered it, it will no longer be an option. Some of those places are stunning and the lifestyle is unique.
mike current is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2020, 09:07
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 72
Posts: 9,103
Originally Posted by LookingForAJob View Post

As for combining radar services in a single ops room, and sometimes providing those services at some distance from the ops room,there is nothing new about this, and I suspect that benefits of doing so are easily demonstrated. 'Remoting' surveillance systems and RTF is probably considered a pretty mature technology these days, and I doubt that cameras and other airport surveillance systems offer little additional challenge.
When I first became an ATCA at West Drayton back in '69, I read a report of a visit by some LATCC controllers (including the late Len Vass) to New York where they viewed the 'NY Common IFR' facility at (I think) Newark; that's where I first heard about the concept of combining approach services for several airports under one roof, so it didn't surprise me when years later, the 'Beeker Plan' (from its authors, Dave Beech and Al Parker) introduced the same concept to the UK which eventually became CCF then TC.
Course the RAF introduced a similar (but not quite the same) concept in the early '60s with Combined Approach Control (CAC).
chevvron is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2020, 17:38
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Scotland
Posts: 8
More Detail

HIAL announced its plans to introduce a remote tower air traffic management system (ATMS) in January 2018 and since then HIAL staff, the Unions and key stakeholder groups have been kept informed on all aspects of the review from its inception. In October 2019, the HIAL Board gave authority to seek funding from Scottish Government to progress the ATMS programme. Following approval from Scottish Government, a Business Case was approved by the Board in December, along with a number of specific recommendations. The strategic programme decisions made by the Board moves HIAL into the implementation phase of the ATMS project and will allow detailed operational decisions to be made.

The key decisions covered:

Purchase of New Century House for the Combined Surveillance Centre

Airspace and Surveillance Options

Sumburgh Approach Radar Service

Air Traffic Service (ATS) Training

AirTraffic Service provision at Benbecula and Wick John O'Groats

Dundee ATC Position in ATMS Transition Plan

Operational / People Transition Plan

To ensure all staff and stakeholders were aware of the strategic decisions made by the Board, a concentrated programme of local engagement events were undertaken from 17th to 22nd January. These sessions were the start of the next phase of our ongoing engagement programme to ensure our staff, stakeholders and partners are kept up-to-date and able to input their views as we move forward with the programme.

The sessions were not detailed technical briefings but generated honest feedback and questions. The feedback helps us enormously and will allow us to direct our ongoing engagement as we seek input from staff, stakeholders and partners.

We have compiled questions from the different sessions and have included these in the Air Traffic Management Strategy area of the website.

Last edited by AAK10; 26th Jan 2020 at 14:33.
AAK10 is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2020, 17:10
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 42
Posts: 4,346
Outwardly it seems the ‘engagement process’ is merely a ‘this is what we are doing, we won’t debate it or get your ideas about it. You have now been ‘engaged’’ process.
Gonzo is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2020, 14:05
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The Great Wide Open
Posts: 2
Futher Detail

h ttps://prospect.org.uk/news/remote-towers-proposals-put-future-of-islands-air-services-at-risk/
h ttps://www.shetnews.co.uk/2020/01/23/cross-party-opposition-to-hials-remote-tower-plans/
h ttps://www.cne-siar.gov.uk/news/2020/january/better-options-available-in-atc-modernisation/
h ttps://www.orcadian.co.uk/mcarthur-urges-ministers-to-call-a-halt-to-air-traffic-control-centralisation/
Chopper4 is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2020, 09:31
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The Great Wide Open
Posts: 2
Independent Report

An independent report carried out for Prospect into the Highlands and Islands Airport Limited (HIAL) plan to relocate all air traffic controllers to a central location at Inverness, has shown that the likely costs and risks of the project have been hugely under-estimated by HIAL.

The report was carried out by procurement expert Dave Watson and looked at the overall costs and risks of HIAL’s proposal. It also looked at the alternatives as well as the impact on local communities and the level of engagement.

HIAL is carrying out its own impact assessment but it states in the call for evidence that whatever the findings are it will be continuing with its plan to move to remote towers.

The key findings of Prospect’s independent report were:
  • The remote towers programme will take at least £18m of economic benefit from island economies
  • HIAL’s own scoping study identified the remote towers option as “the most difficult and risky to implement”.
  • HIAL have only published a redacted business case for the proposal. Implementation costs have already almost doubled to £33.5m with lifetime costs £70m higher than the status quo.
  • HIAL has failed to learn the lessons of an NAO report into IT procurement by the Scottish government with engagement and staff buy-in in particular well below optimal.
  • Early adopters of new technology like HIAL, not only face a risk of functionality but also that the technology is quickly updated.
  • Safety and operational concerns have been raised including, the breakdown of data transmission systems, cyber-security, weather assessment, impact on human performance and managing the need for ratings for more than one tower in a single shift.
  • The scoping study took place pre-COVID and does not take into account any potential impact of the pandemic on the aviation industry as a whole.

David Avery, Prospect negotiator, said:

“From day one HIAL have presented this as a done deal with negligible consultation, even less transparency, and bad faith.

“Prospect and its members in HIAL are not against reasoned changes to the technology and the operating procedures of air traffic control in the Highlands and Islands but these plans are not fit for purpose. The plans will remove vital high value jobs from communities which can little afford to lose them, totalling at least £18m.

“It is beyond belief that HIAL continue to press on with these plans, backed by the Scottish government, when the risks and costs are so plain to see. And that’s before we take COVID-19 into account. The plans were already questionable but with the aviation industry in crisis the risks are even higher and must be rethought.

“If the Scottish Government and HIAL continue with the remote towers plans it will be remote communities that pay the price. It’s no wonder places like Shetland are looking into self-rule when their needs are paid so little regard.”
Chopper4 is offline  
Old 27th May 2021, 15:56
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Moon
Posts: 212
Latest news

https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2021...-control-plans
AyrTC is offline  
Old 28th May 2021, 00:15
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Home
Posts: 4
Latest news
Lots of words, well quite a few anyway, but I'm not really sure it actually says very much. Anybody with any detail?????
Equivocal is offline  
Old 29th May 2021, 11:50
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: On top of the world
Age: 71
Posts: 113
HIAL could try paying NATS to do the paperwork. Then when it's criticised, ask why it's ok for London City but not them ..........
off watch is offline  
Old 29th May 2021, 11:55
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Digital Scotland, which describes itself as “Scotland’s hub for digital transformation and innovation”, rated its confidence in the project being successfully delivered as “amber-red” after flagging 12 areas of concern in its technology assurance review “health check”.

From the press and journal (won't allow me to post the link)

Sounds like they should have paid someone else to do the paperwork! Any idea if Sumburgh Radar is up and running yet?
elspread is offline  
Old 31st May 2021, 22:01
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: next door to the pub
Posts: 190
Originally Posted by elspread View Post
Any idea if Sumburgh Radar is up and running yet?
Nope, nope, nope. (Had to repeat myself to get it to post)
Fly Through is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2021, 04:38
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by Fly Through View Post
Nope, nope, nope. (Had to repeat myself to get it to post)
That doesn't bode well. Sumburgh radar was supposed to be the easy part. Quite why they wanted to take that on themselves when NATS did it for next to nothing is beyond me. Looking at the airspace change portal it seems like the Inverness application is still suitability shambolic. Why do HIAL make such a mess of these things? Can't see how they are so optimistic about using controlled airspace and cooperative surveillance at the smaller aerodromes if it's taken them seven years to progress Inverness CAS application to this stage.
elspread is offline  
Old 14th Jun 2021, 08:53
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Scotland
Posts: 8
LSI Hial training

Rumour has it that classroom training for the start of the move over of Sumburgh Radar to HIAL took place last week and simulator training has started today!!
AAK10 is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2021, 05:30
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 72
Posts: 9,103
Originally Posted by elspread View Post
Why do HIAL make such a mess of these things?
Because they're civil servants and part of the Scottish government and thus not ATCOs who would simply get on with it?
chevvron is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2021, 01:19
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: London Whipsnade Wildlife Park
Posts: 4,661
There were adverts looking for staff to manage the project not long after the initial announcement. Safety Management transition. I’d imagine system redundancy and training would be crucial in gaining CAA approval, plus continuation of service and impact on customers. Basically rewriting everything including operational instructions. A mammoth task with much contracted out.
Buster the Bear is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2021, 21:15
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by AAK10 View Post
Rumour has it that classroom training for the start of the move over of Sumburgh Radar to HIAL took place last week and simulator training has started today!!
Any truth to the rumours that the CAA have stopped them and made them redo the transition training? I was tempted at one point to take a job there - glad I didn't now!
elspread is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2021, 07:44
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 152
Originally Posted by elspread View Post
Any truth to the rumours that the CAA have stopped them and made them redo the transition training? I was tempted at one point to take a job there - glad I didn't now!
Don't know the specifics but I would be surprised if that was the case as normally the CAA have no clue of what happens at most units 😂
mike current is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 17:22
  #19 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Moon
Posts: 212
Strike announced over Inverness air traffic control plans https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...lands-57833657
AyrTC is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2021, 23:17
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: far far away
Posts: 97
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...lands-57997274

So the strike went ahead. Been keeping an eye on this for a while, it appears management simply don't want to lose face? They already have their solution for the perceived problem and now have painted themselves into a corner where they can't accept that there have been genuine concerns raised. What a mess. I feel sorry for our colleagues who I am sure haven't entered into this action lightly - are ATC managers the same wherever you go?
escaped.atco is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.