F15 Court Martial (Merged thread)
From a serving ATCO, all the best. I have no idea what you must be going through, but we are all with you, I believe that includes most of the 'Flying Community'. As a side issue also spare a thought for the poor soul who they tried to crucify over the incident in Kosovo. His case did not generate as much fuss, but, I believe he has gone through his own personal set of agonies supported only by a close few, and was himself betrayed by our 'Duty of Care' system. This incident must bring back nightmares.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good Luck SPOT
I was on your course at CATC bournemouth when you were thinking about going civil.
I think what the Royal Air Farce (intended spelling) is putting you through is absolute s h i t e !
Best wishes
course108
I think what the Royal Air Farce (intended spelling) is putting you through is absolute s h i t e !
Best wishes
course108
Watchdog Delta Hotel
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: here but there in 6 years
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
spot
just to re-iterate the feelings of the others posting
us pennine people understand to a certain extent what you are going thru but obviously not totally
has to impact on your family which makes it worse for all concerned
i hope the back up from both civil and mil air traffic helps you at this time but the main thing is that you were in the right in the service provision and it will have to be thrown out at opening submission
all the best anyway
mc
just to re-iterate the feelings of the others posting
us pennine people understand to a certain extent what you are going thru but obviously not totally
has to impact on your family which makes it worse for all concerned
i hope the back up from both civil and mil air traffic helps you at this time but the main thing is that you were in the right in the service provision and it will have to be thrown out at opening submission
all the best anyway
mc
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Shrewsbury
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Daily Update
Nice to see that Spot has not been forgotten!
Picking up 'Barnwood's' point about updating PPRuNe on the developments at the Court Martial, Dick Doleman and I have been chatting and I've agreed to take a laptop along to feed you with daily updates; wouldn't it be nice if it folded on day 1?
I spoke to Spot at length just a couple of days ago and he asked me to say thanks to everyone for their kind thoughts. Keep the encouraging comments coming because he reads every one and he's getting a great deal of strength from the support you're all giving him.
Don't forget, God forbid, but it could have been you!
Mickydrip
Picking up 'Barnwood's' point about updating PPRuNe on the developments at the Court Martial, Dick Doleman and I have been chatting and I've agreed to take a laptop along to feed you with daily updates; wouldn't it be nice if it folded on day 1?
I spoke to Spot at length just a couple of days ago and he asked me to say thanks to everyone for their kind thoughts. Keep the encouraging comments coming because he reads every one and he's getting a great deal of strength from the support you're all giving him.
Don't forget, God forbid, but it could have been you!
Mickydrip
Last edited by Mickydrip; 17th Jan 2003 at 19:24.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Wivenhoe, not too far from the Clacton VOR
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spot, From CATC, Pedro and the other guys and gals who remember you are following these events with all the interest, concern and sympathy you can imagine. Thinking of you and your family - I won't wish you luck - if there is any justice in the world you won't need it. You need a sensible Judge Advocate, and a court that doesn't have another agenda. I wish you those.
Regards
Regards
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
F15 Court Martial
Comments from the bottom....
As a new guy in the forum my feelings go out to Spot and his family as the day approaches, having been subject to the rigmarole of court-martial proceedings I know the feelings of despair and betrayal he must be feeling.
With regard to the actions of the BOYS in blue, the powers that be have this great motto "Justice must be done and be seen to be done", which means hanging the nearest schmuck by the proverbials. Court martials are great proceedings - for the first world war- and as such stand as a monument to the fairest judicial system of all, being tried by ones superiors, who when all said and done will not wish to show the service or their superiors brought into question. Judge Advocate Generals truly are wise and learned and more in touch with the real world than the tabloids will have you believe. However, he is only there in an advisory capacity and as such can, if the members of the board are behaving in a proper legal manner i.e. not having had a decision passed down from on high before the day, can b politely disregarded.
Hopefully Justice will prevail, SPOT will be cleared and the men who hide behind others to keep their b***s off the line are made to drop 'em and cough long and hard.
I speak from the bitter experience of not only being subject to RAF court martial proceedings but also escorting friends and acquaintances. I was also the assistant to the allocator at Scottish military the day of the incident and saw the finger of blame erroneously waved that day.
Thank you for reading.
P.S. The Royal Air Force is rumoured to be changing its uniform colour from wedgwood blue to CYAN ( Cover Your A**e Now). Possibly because their is no good accronym for the former.
As a new guy in the forum my feelings go out to Spot and his family as the day approaches, having been subject to the rigmarole of court-martial proceedings I know the feelings of despair and betrayal he must be feeling.
With regard to the actions of the BOYS in blue, the powers that be have this great motto "Justice must be done and be seen to be done", which means hanging the nearest schmuck by the proverbials. Court martials are great proceedings - for the first world war- and as such stand as a monument to the fairest judicial system of all, being tried by ones superiors, who when all said and done will not wish to show the service or their superiors brought into question. Judge Advocate Generals truly are wise and learned and more in touch with the real world than the tabloids will have you believe. However, he is only there in an advisory capacity and as such can, if the members of the board are behaving in a proper legal manner i.e. not having had a decision passed down from on high before the day, can b politely disregarded.
Hopefully Justice will prevail, SPOT will be cleared and the men who hide behind others to keep their b***s off the line are made to drop 'em and cough long and hard.
I speak from the bitter experience of not only being subject to RAF court martial proceedings but also escorting friends and acquaintances. I was also the assistant to the allocator at Scottish military the day of the incident and saw the finger of blame erroneously waved that day.
Thank you for reading.
P.S. The Royal Air Force is rumoured to be changing its uniform colour from wedgwood blue to CYAN ( Cover Your A**e Now). Possibly because their is no good accronym for the former.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Earth, mostly
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sad times indeed.
No doubt any one of us could so easily have been in the same position - I guess we're just a little more lucky (or have been so far).
The thoughts of all at the home of ATC go to all of the victims of this debacle, not least the families who have borne a heavy load for an unforgivably extended period.
No doubt any one of us could so easily have been in the same position - I guess we're just a little more lucky (or have been so far).
The thoughts of all at the home of ATC go to all of the victims of this debacle, not least the families who have borne a heavy load for an unforgivably extended period.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air traffic Information notice (ATSIN) No.17 issued by SRG is interesting and pertinent to this case. It defines Lapses and Mistakes etc. This is a civil notice and would not be issued to the RAF. This ATSIN was the result of work carried out by the Human Factors Dept of the Safety Regulation Group, Civil Aviation Authority.
From my interpretation, if a civil controller erroneously gave a wrong level for descent due to a lapse of memory or because of distraction - this would be viewed as LAPSE.
It seems that a similar occurrence involving an RAF controller is viewed as negligence(or worse) resulting in charges being laid that could lead to a prison sentence. Bearing in mind that the type of service being given to the subject aircraft (RIS under LARS) is applied by both military and civil units, this difference seems highly unjust. The treatment being meted out here seems to fall under the civil definition of VIOLATION :
'In a violation, the individual concerned, for whatever reason, deliberately contravenes a rule or procedure, even when he/she knows the required course of action'
From what I can gather from this forum DELIBERATE CONTRAVENTION does not apply in this case.
Best of luck Spot.
From my interpretation, if a civil controller erroneously gave a wrong level for descent due to a lapse of memory or because of distraction - this would be viewed as LAPSE.
It seems that a similar occurrence involving an RAF controller is viewed as negligence(or worse) resulting in charges being laid that could lead to a prison sentence. Bearing in mind that the type of service being given to the subject aircraft (RIS under LARS) is applied by both military and civil units, this difference seems highly unjust. The treatment being meted out here seems to fall under the civil definition of VIOLATION :
'In a violation, the individual concerned, for whatever reason, deliberately contravenes a rule or procedure, even when he/she knows the required course of action'
From what I can gather from this forum DELIBERATE CONTRAVENTION does not apply in this case.
Best of luck Spot.
Last edited by Trick; 17th Jan 2003 at 09:33.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Shrewsbury
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATSIN 17
Trick's correct, this smacks of another case of double standards.
Having read it a number of times since the Airforce decided to look for a scapegoat, I believe that it should be brought to the attention of all civil atco's. They should take heart from ATSIN 17; RAF atco's should ask why they're not subject to a similar instruction.
Watch your 6, guys.
Mickydrip
Having read it a number of times since the Airforce decided to look for a scapegoat, I believe that it should be brought to the attention of all civil atco's. They should take heart from ATSIN 17; RAF atco's should ask why they're not subject to a similar instruction.
Watch your 6, guys.
Mickydrip
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK FIR South
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good Luck Spot!
Just a note to offer the support and thoughts to Spot from loads of ATCOs south of "Hadrians Wall" - it is absolutely disgraceful that this case has been brought this far - I understand from a senior Navy Legal officer that the other Services legal departments are also suprised this is being pursued......... apparently/ allegedly at the whim of the RAF Group Captain concerned ............... anyone know his name?? Hope he is able to sleep at night. NOT.
Last edited by Avalon; 20th Jan 2003 at 13:45.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Gloucs
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am told that the original decision to proceed with Court Martial was made at Air Rank level outside the ATC specialisation, this officer has susequently retired.
Quite what his motives were, I can only guess but he certainly made his decision without having the findings of a Board of Inquiry at hand as one was never held.
Even though the case is now in the hands of the Director ol Legal Services RAF it must still be under direction from higher level.
Someone,somewhere is still pressing hard for a scapegoat or this whole shambles would have been called off some time ago .
Quite what his motives were, I can only guess but he certainly made his decision without having the findings of a Board of Inquiry at hand as one was never held.
Even though the case is now in the hands of the Director ol Legal Services RAF it must still be under direction from higher level.
Someone,somewhere is still pressing hard for a scapegoat or this whole shambles would have been called off some time ago .
Last edited by BARNWOOD; 21st Jan 2003 at 07:29.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: High Wycombe, UK
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good Luck Spot
With over 11,000 hits to this topic, even tho’ many are revisits, you can be assured that the whole of the ATC world is watching and silently (for now) supporting you. If you are not acquitted then the floodgates will surely open.
With Dick Doleman, Alan Turner and their colleagues on your team you’re in good hands. They didn’t take any c**p when they were in the RAF and won’t now.
My thoughts are with you because as most ATCOs know –‘there but for the grace of god…’
Good Luck SPOT
Gisajob
With Dick Doleman, Alan Turner and their colleagues on your team you’re in good hands. They didn’t take any c**p when they were in the RAF and won’t now.
My thoughts are with you because as most ATCOs know –‘there but for the grace of god…’
Good Luck SPOT
Gisajob
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spot the scapegoat
I would caution everyone against speculating who actually made the final decision to try and make a scapegoat of Spot - the trial starts Monday and all the facts will eventually emerge, one way or another.
I understand Spot has an outstanding legal team to represent him and they will certainly ensure that all the details of why this sad, and totally unecessary prosecution was considered necessary, finally emerge.
Either way, everyone involved will end up losing. The RAF's image and reputation is going to take a very severe battering, for no return whatsoever. Spot has already suffered more than any of us can possibly imagine and, whatever the outcome, will go on suffering for the remainder of his life.
Spot, draw strength from the support of the entire Ops Spt (ATC) branch. Nobody I know believes any good whatsoever can come of this mis-guided prosecution and we will all watch how events unfold, and the reactions of the 'airships', with great interest. Their reaction to the outcome will certainly influence how RAF controllers approach their duties in the years to come.
I understand Spot has an outstanding legal team to represent him and they will certainly ensure that all the details of why this sad, and totally unecessary prosecution was considered necessary, finally emerge.
Either way, everyone involved will end up losing. The RAF's image and reputation is going to take a very severe battering, for no return whatsoever. Spot has already suffered more than any of us can possibly imagine and, whatever the outcome, will go on suffering for the remainder of his life.
Spot, draw strength from the support of the entire Ops Spt (ATC) branch. Nobody I know believes any good whatsoever can come of this mis-guided prosecution and we will all watch how events unfold, and the reactions of the 'airships', with great interest. Their reaction to the outcome will certainly influence how RAF controllers approach their duties in the years to come.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have never met Spot, but as a serving Mil ATCO I would just like to add my best wishes to the many that have been given on this forum. It must be hell, I know the guy who went through all this crap over the Kosovo incident and I can only sympathise with what Spot and his family must be going through. I hope you give the RAF the arse-kicking it richly deserves, and heres to the case getting thrown out on the first day.
All the best.
All the best.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Shrewsbury
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Updates
Just a note to say keep watching closely for events as they develop; I will be posting daily updates from Helensburgh - hopefully just the one!
Is there any truth in the rumour that the senior wheel who decided to go to Court Martial without a Board of Enquiry is now being paid to run the RAF Benevolent Fund? As an ex-RAF ATC officer I can only say God help us all.
Is there any truth in the rumour that the senior wheel who decided to go to Court Martial without a Board of Enquiry is now being paid to run the RAF Benevolent Fund? As an ex-RAF ATC officer I can only say God help us all.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Preston,lancashire
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This will probably be my last 'posting' prior to the CM starting on Monday in Helensburgh.
Spot and Sue have asked me to pass on their thanks for all the support that has been expressed on Pprune. Spot will respond personally once the proceedings are complete.
Spot has an excellent defence team and is also getting terrific support from the Guild at the highest level, an awesome combination , and one which we hope will deliver the correct result for him.
Mike Tasker will keep you all informed on a daily basis, please continue to monitor this Forum.
Let justice prevail for Spot.
DD
Spot and Sue have asked me to pass on their thanks for all the support that has been expressed on Pprune. Spot will respond personally once the proceedings are complete.
Spot has an excellent defence team and is also getting terrific support from the Guild at the highest level, an awesome combination , and one which we hope will deliver the correct result for him.
Mike Tasker will keep you all informed on a daily basis, please continue to monitor this Forum.
Let justice prevail for Spot.
DD
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Gloucs
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I expect the CinC gets a daily brief on this forum so maintain your dignity Spotty - they can't take that away from you. The whole of ATC is watching and right behind you mate. Sock it to'em.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: By the Sea-side
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not just ATC either. Us ex-blue suits from the other branches are just as gutted at the brass' treatment of someone at the sharp-end. Keep the faith Spot, you have the support of more people than you could ever imagine.
DWB Flt Lt [rtd]
DWB Flt Lt [rtd]
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The following is an article by the Scottish Sunday Mail dated 19 Jan.
COURT DATE FOR JET DEATHS CONTROLLER EXCLUSIVE
Steve Mckenzie
AN RAF air traffic controller blamed for a double jet crash is to learn his fate this month.
American fighter pilots Kenneth Hyvonen and Kirk Jones died when their F- 15C jets slammed into the Cairngorms.
The Sunday Mail can reveal that Flight Lieutenant Malcolm Williams, of RAF Leuchars, Fife, is to face a court martial a week tomorrow in connection with the tragedy.
The hearing will be held at a Royal Naval centre in Helensburgh.
The rare move is the armed forces' most serious disciplinary hearing and can result in jail.
It is understood that the charges relate to conduct amounting to professional negligence.
Military and civilian air traffic controllers have rallied behind Flt Lt Williams while the Guild of Air Traffic Control Officers (GATCO) and droves of supporters have sent him messages of goodwill.
Sympathisers are outraged at the RAF's handling of the case. Top brass did not hold a board of inquiry, denying the officer an opportunity to give his side of the incident.
Flt Lt Williams is believed to be the first military controller in the UK to be court martialled in connection with a fatal air crash.
He was providing radar information as the US pilots trained over Scotland in March 2001. Lt-Col Hyvonen, 40, and Captain Jones, 27, died when their jets smashed into Ben Macdhui in a snow storm. But sources close to the case claim the pilots themselves, based at RAF Lakenheath, in Suffolk, were responsible for where and how low they flew.
More than 100 rescuers battled over the mountainous terrain in sub- zero temperatures and blizzards to find the missing men.
Eventually the smell of aviation fuel near the summit of the 4,284ft mountain led them to the wreckage. The bodies of Lt- Col Hyvonen and Capt Jones were found nearby.
Debris from the two jets took months to clear and more than 250 tonnes of snow had to be removed to avoid contamination of the environment by aviation fuel.
COURT DATE FOR JET DEATHS CONTROLLER EXCLUSIVE
Steve Mckenzie
AN RAF air traffic controller blamed for a double jet crash is to learn his fate this month.
American fighter pilots Kenneth Hyvonen and Kirk Jones died when their F- 15C jets slammed into the Cairngorms.
The Sunday Mail can reveal that Flight Lieutenant Malcolm Williams, of RAF Leuchars, Fife, is to face a court martial a week tomorrow in connection with the tragedy.
The hearing will be held at a Royal Naval centre in Helensburgh.
The rare move is the armed forces' most serious disciplinary hearing and can result in jail.
It is understood that the charges relate to conduct amounting to professional negligence.
Military and civilian air traffic controllers have rallied behind Flt Lt Williams while the Guild of Air Traffic Control Officers (GATCO) and droves of supporters have sent him messages of goodwill.
Sympathisers are outraged at the RAF's handling of the case. Top brass did not hold a board of inquiry, denying the officer an opportunity to give his side of the incident.
Flt Lt Williams is believed to be the first military controller in the UK to be court martialled in connection with a fatal air crash.
He was providing radar information as the US pilots trained over Scotland in March 2001. Lt-Col Hyvonen, 40, and Captain Jones, 27, died when their jets smashed into Ben Macdhui in a snow storm. But sources close to the case claim the pilots themselves, based at RAF Lakenheath, in Suffolk, were responsible for where and how low they flew.
More than 100 rescuers battled over the mountainous terrain in sub- zero temperatures and blizzards to find the missing men.
Eventually the smell of aviation fuel near the summit of the 4,284ft mountain led them to the wreckage. The bodies of Lt- Col Hyvonen and Capt Jones were found nearby.
Debris from the two jets took months to clear and more than 250 tonnes of snow had to be removed to avoid contamination of the environment by aviation fuel.