ghost-rider

There goes your street cred Spot !

Best of luck for next week !

railwaystand

Just found out about this whole shambles from here in Yankee Doodle, the RAF heirarchy never change or learn. Best of luck to Spot and family and everyone helping out, he was always a sound bloke and gave me loads of sage advice ;-) when I was a young PO many moons ago.

Hopefully this thing will come to it's proper conclusion soon.

sireofkai

SPOT: DD was an inspiration when I was "his" SPOT. With that sort of support you can't go wrong. Being innocent (for the first time in your life!) is also a help. Hang in there mate, this nightmare is almost over.
ROGER LITTLE

PS If Cliff is offering free Adnams, can I come with you?

Brian Dixon

Steve Davis & Spot's Team,

It is quite useful to write your own press releases and send them out to editors and newsdesks. They are happy to get them as it saves having to send a reporter along to the event.

Whilst the CM isn't to be taken lightly, if an Ed is looking for a 'filler article', they may choose to use your press release as it is already prepared for them. Filler or not, it's all publicity!

Don't forget to include contact details in case the Ed wants to get more information. Send out regular updates too.

As has been mentioned, thanks to Spot's team for the regular updates and, as always, my best to Spot and Mrs Spot.

Brian

Steve Davies

Brian,

Good advice. I already have two pages set aside for my CM piece in the magazine that I write for (can't say which one as the Ed doesn't like the competition knowing what's out in next month's edition!), but I was also thinking of using a few contacts in the tabloid world to further the issue.

I'll keep you all informed.

Self Loading Freight

I've been watching this case unfold on Pprune since it began, with a mixture of fascination with the story, unease at the implications and admiration for those involved. Regardless of the details of the affair -- I'm in no position to judge, regardless of my opinions -- it seems to me that there are a couple of hooks that could interest Fleet Street.

First, it's the longest running court martial in the RAF's history. Second, this is the first time that a CM has been reported online, day by day and in such detail. Everyone outside the services thinks of CsM as mysterious, dramatic events, and probably only has images from the movies to go on. That such a drama, unique in the history of the RAF, is going on in such an accessible fashion is a good story for those reasons alone -- before the even more dramatic and important facts of the matter are considered.

I don't wish to trivialise the death of two pilots and the struggle of one man to clear his name, and nobody who's read this thread can be in any doubt as to the depth of feeling of everyone involved, directly or indirectly. This and the Chinook affair raise many important questions about the management culture at the top of the RAF, and as these affect the future of the service they may be even more vital than what's happening at the CM itself. But to get the story onto the radar of the news editors at the nationals, it may be an idea to emphasise what makes it instantly unique -- and the online angle taps into the media's continuing obsession with how the Internet's affecting everyday lives.

R

Argus

Like Self-Loading Freight, for all the same reasons plus my own life experiences, I've been watching the events unfold in this tragic saga on a daily basis.

Courts martial have been around for a long time. I'm not privy to their more recent incidence in the UK. However, during my eight years in the Fleet Air Arm back in the pre Dennis Healey era, I was aware of only one convened against an aviator (for a non-flying charge of insubordination). Certainly, in Australia, they are the exception rather than the rule.

The 'raison d'etre' for courts martial tends to cluster around the 'maintenance of discipline'/'discouragement of others' arguments. For example, the Court Martial of Lieutenant William Calley in 1971 for the premeditated murder of 109 (he was convicted of killing 22) South Vietnamese civilians in March 1968 at My Lai was a belated attempt to punish an inexcusable act. Nevertheless, such an outcome wasn't politically acceptable. Although sentenced to life with hard labour, President Nixon intervened on Calley's behalf. Calley was confined for three years, most of the time under house arrest in his apartment at Fort Benning, with visitation rights for a girlfriend, before parole.

So why court martial an air traffic controller when it is generally accepted (certainly when I took to the air) that terrain clearance is the ultimate responsibility of the pilot. Is this court martial a 'political' response to the tragic deaths of two USAF pilots? Would there have been a court martial in identical circumstances but with British pilots? Why have there been no previous court martials of air traffic controllers (see my earlier post) in similar fact situations?

I suspect the answer lies in part with the reported finding by the Elgin Procurator Fiscal of 'unlawful death'. I understand that there are no coroners in Scotland so such a finding was likely made following an Inquest. Confronted with such a finding, the RAF would, I think, be obliged, in the public interest, to take the matter further.

As I've previously said, I think the legal issues at stake here are slightly broader than the pilot's responsibility for terrain clearance. I personally think they go to the following:

a. whether the air traffic controller owed a duty of care, that is a legal obligation, to avoid harm to the two pilots concerned;

b. was there unreasonable behaviour on his part towards the pilots in the situation where the duty of care existed (i.e. a breach of the duty);

c. was there damage as a result of his alleged breach; and

d. were the harmful consequences reasonably foreseeable.

From my own experiences, I know that aircrew and air traffic controllers are accustomed to immediate resolution of problems and conflicts. Unfortunately, as a lawyer, I also know that the Law doesn't always move - with good reason - at the same pace. Whilst the current proceedings are undoubtedly painful for all concerned, the longer-term benefit will be the clarification of what the air traffic controller’s responsibilities are in such circumstances. The sadness I feel is that it should take such a tragic sequence of events to determine the issue.

Alan Turner

First of all may I join everyone else in extending my sympathies to the Senior Member of the Board - we can ill afford to lose someone of her undoubted experience but family comes first.

The prospect of having to go through another CM if this one is dissolved is too awful to contemplate. A second chance to "get things right this time" (from certain quarters) springs to mind. I'd like to think that a second CM would be unbiased but feel that, with all the publicity there's been over the last three weeks, that would be difficult to achieve. Let's hope this one runs it's course as the outcome is inevitable.

By the time you read this Spot I'll be in Ireland, and where I'm going doesn't sport an Internet Cafe let alone a real one! I'll keep in touch through Dick as long as there's enough cover for the mobile. Keep your pecker up and, no, Walter doesn't shave his legs; I know as I shared a room with him last week.

Love to you both,

Al & Diane

Tendue

Spot n sue - I know you know it already but you have the best wishes of everyone who knows you, including this writer. As the holder of the 'Poseur' trophy and a former proud holder of the 'Rabbit', we have a lot in common, even if I am 'digitally challenged'. Thinking of you. M & C.

Seniorsup

Spot & Sue
Just another note from a colleague still in RAF as an ATCO, we are all routing for you.
Hope all goes well tomorrow.
A new CM is unthinkable.
Good lcuk to you Spot
Seniorsup

Wrote8

Dear Spot

Like Renrut I am out of the country - 'n´Garmisch as it happens! I have managed to track down an Internet cafe (which serves a passable local Bier too!), my first port of call (ok, not including the bar) was Pprune. Glad to hear Penrice is standing up so well - I organised the Xmas Ball at Valley at which he won an MGB - so if luck is a commodity with any currency in this matter, Craig's yer man!

Hopefully, this bluddy awful episode will soon be brought to its rightful conclusion. Our thoughts and best wishes are with you.


All the Best for next week - and give Al Quinn one in the slats for me!

XXX

Stu Bingham

fleetwoodmix

Like many others, I’ve only recently been made aware of this facility and I just wanted to add my own best wishes and join hundreds if not thousands of others who are following the case in full support of Spot and Sue. I have only met Spot once. He made me laugh with a tale about a biorhythm lecture he’d been given and how one lunchtime he tried to explain his own unique biorhythm to his civvy course mates at Bournemouth – Low Monday 8am to Friday 5pm, High……

Seems to me that it’s about 4.58 on the Friday afternoon of this ridiculous affair and I can’t understand why he didn’t get an early stack! No one deserves it more than him and his family (and the rest of his excellent support team of course). Keep up the good work all of you and thank you for keeping us all in touch.

Q. What reason (if any) did the JA have for keeping the CM going after the Defence team put forward the “no case to answer” motion?

Q. Will the hierarchy (those responsible for placing Spot in this intolerable position) ever be held to account for THEIR actions in this matter?

Other Q’s spring to mind:
What lessons are to be learnt from all this?
Is the Military ATC bible JSP318a worth the paper it’s written on?
In a court of law, who actually is responsible for terrain clearance?

Thanks again and good luck next week. MM

Charlie

To Spot, Sue and family just got back to sunny Scotland for the first time since this fiasco started. You know we are all thinking of you but thought I would send our wishes in writing. You have all shown great courage and determination in these difficult times. See you on a golf course near you when its all over.
Best wishes SJKAZ

hairynev

I have only today read through the entries concerned with this farce. As a retired Atco of some 30 + years experience I feel that these charges should never have been bought.

I noticed with interest Argus's note on the Canberra crash concerning RNAS Lossiemouth in the '60s. I can correct him in that the controller concerned was indeed court martialled. As in this case the stated charges were so innapropriately framed that one was thrown out immediately following the commencement of the defence case. The controller concerned was found guilty on the remaining charge and " dismissed his ship". He was retrained in another branch of the service. The real guilty party, (Supervision) was allowed to neatly sidestep oficial punishment. (Although he was shortly promoted sideways out of ATC)

I dont know Spot but I wish him and his familly all the best.

Brambo

I hope this is all over soon. Its been a long time since we've had a beer in the Deafen Inn Spot, my thoughts and feelings are with you and Sue. Keep your chin up, you have a lot of friends and the support will never fade.

Tallest Bloke

....been thinking about you lots and from where I'm sitting I can see more holes in this case than on all the golf courses in Fife!
There is a rumour that all this is for a new BBC drama called 'White Cap', only filming is about to be axed as the prosecution actors are so poor. I wish you well, you are the finest tank commander I've ever known. I'd like a signed edition of your book when the dust has settled.

Regards to Sue and family.

McDuff

I suppose that it would be churlish to point out an ironic connection between the board member's absence on compassionate grounds and Spot's situation at the time of the accident ...

Spot's father had just died yet he was allowed to control.

cb

Hawkspar

.... we're thinking of you. Thinking of Spot and Sue, and also of all the guys at Leuchars (and elsewhere) who are rooting for them!

And a big thank you to those who are keeping us up to date with the events.

golfops

Hi Spot

Keeping abreast of the situation - crikey the only thing longer than this is watching you play a round of golf.............

Cheers to you and Sue

Phil

Mickydrip

Fleetwoodmix asks some very pertinent questions; being a Scouser in a suit, I have a little experience of the legal system !!!
I'll try and provide some answers, as best I can.

No case to answer: The fundamental basis of the legal system is that it is for the prosecution to prove the case which they bring to court. This means that when all the evidence has been laid before the trial judge(s), the defence can call upon the judge(s) to decide whether the evidence has been sufficient to require the defence to answer the charges, or the case is defective in such a way as to make it inappropriate for the defendant to be at any further risk of conviction. In other words, the "No case to answer" submission can be upheld if the evidence is so manifestly unreliable, or has been discredited to such an extent that a reasonable panel, properly directed as to the law, could not find the defendant guilty of the offences charged. If the court feels, however, that the evidence received so far is sufficient to satisfy the test noted above, then the "No case to answer" submission would fail and the trial would progress to the next stage, as has happened.

From what I saw in the first week, the prosecution case looked far from convincing; you can judge for yourself from the postings on pprune.

The hierarchy: Well that's not for me to say, thankfully I left the Service over 10 years ago. It is interesting to note, however, that the very senior wheel who determined this should go to CM is now running the Benevolent Fund as a civilian, and is therefore out of reach. Also, Spot's former SATCO. in my opinion, failed in her duty of care towards one of her staff members.

Lessons learned? The plethora of orders and instructions being introduced as a direct result of this accident says it all. RAF controllers should, in future, be very wary about signing up to a contract on the R/T that exposes them to trial by CM. Knowing and applying the rules no longer seems sufficient to guarantee innocence.

JSP 318A: I've not read it for years, so can't help.

Terrain clearance: You and I both know that under RIS, it is, and always has been, the pilots responsibility.

More from Dick and the boys later.
Micky