F15 Court Martial (Merged thread)
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Keep your spirits up Spot.
By all accounts, acquital will be the word of the day soon.
Even though we've never met, our thoughts and best wishes are with you and your family.
Technical legal question for Mickydrip or anyone else in the know : ...
Q : when Spot has been cleared, could he sue the RAF/MOD for defamation of character, stress etc etc ?
By all accounts, acquital will be the word of the day soon.
Even though we've never met, our thoughts and best wishes are with you and your family.
Technical legal question for Mickydrip or anyone else in the know : ...
Q : when Spot has been cleared, could he sue the RAF/MOD for defamation of character, stress etc etc ?
More support for Spot and Sue
Just to say we think of you all the time, and rush home every evening to check on what is happening. It is a huge help to all your friends that your incredible team go to so much time and trouble to let us know exactly what is going on, they deserve endless thanks. But it must be close to the finishing line now, and even though it is appallingly unfair that you should both have had to endure this for so long, at least now all the facts that will clear you are there in black and white for all to see.
The aircraft were clearly visible to the eye-witnesses, it is crystal clear they were the F 15s, not the tornados, the pilots were VMC, as proved by their descent rates, and to argue any other 'case beyond reasonable doubt' is ludicrous.
Don't let the prosecutor get you down, they are paid to be a bunch of miserable cynical bastards, and after a while they can't behave in any other way. I'll still go on sticking pins in his model though!
Lots and lots of love and positive thoughts for tomorrow,
Jane and Guy.
The aircraft were clearly visible to the eye-witnesses, it is crystal clear they were the F 15s, not the tornados, the pilots were VMC, as proved by their descent rates, and to argue any other 'case beyond reasonable doubt' is ludicrous.
Don't let the prosecutor get you down, they are paid to be a bunch of miserable cynical bastards, and after a while they can't behave in any other way. I'll still go on sticking pins in his model though!
Lots and lots of love and positive thoughts for tomorrow,
Jane and Guy.
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An ERRONEOUS INTERLUDE
Page 1 of our bible (ie JSP 318A) has a policy statement that, many years ago, I had to recite during PK examinations. To precis it says that we should provide, in peace and war,.......to enable military pilots to operate with tactical freedom in all weather conditions. SPOT was doing his job.
Perhaps, before we change anything else, we should reconsider that ethos?
Perhaps, before we change anything else, we should reconsider that ethos?
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Dick et al,
Fantastic job - I genuinely can't express my admiration enough.
Spot and Sue,
The tension is painful for us - Heaven knows what you must be going through.
How can an aviation-ignoramus dare to impugn the considered evidence of such highly qualified professionals as Fossie and such an erudite and experienced test pilot? His 'rope' is a worn thread which, I am sure, the Board will have the good sense to snap.
Jackie and I wish you all the best and promise that next time you're down here, you'll be treated like the heroes you are. Corny it may seem, but sometimes you just have to say it how it is.
Dim TAP dinisiau.
Grotty
Fantastic job - I genuinely can't express my admiration enough.
Spot and Sue,
The tension is painful for us - Heaven knows what you must be going through.
How can an aviation-ignoramus dare to impugn the considered evidence of such highly qualified professionals as Fossie and such an erudite and experienced test pilot? His 'rope' is a worn thread which, I am sure, the Board will have the good sense to snap.
Jackie and I wish you all the best and promise that next time you're down here, you'll be treated like the heroes you are. Corny it may seem, but sometimes you just have to say it how it is.
Dim TAP dinisiau.
Grotty
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Spot,
Just a short post to wish Sue and yourself all the best in the coming days. Its a while since I shared "a few quiet ones" in the Deafen with yourself, Brambo, Baggy and many others who I'm sure read and post on this thread.
I'm no longer in the Mob but myself and many others are thinking of you and waiting for, what can be, the only possible outcome from this.
Just a short post to wish Sue and yourself all the best in the coming days. Its a while since I shared "a few quiet ones" in the Deafen with yourself, Brambo, Baggy and many others who I'm sure read and post on this thread.
I'm no longer in the Mob but myself and many others are thinking of you and waiting for, what can be, the only possible outcome from this.
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F15 CM
BONNE COURAGE
Dear Spot,
I start the day by scanning the pprune sites for news…then find a colleague to talk through the latest issues…then think of you and try to imagine the stress and anguish you are suffering……
We will go on like this until its over Spot; "bonne courage" over the next few days and weekend...we are thinking of you and waiting for victory.
Tom
Dear Spot,
I start the day by scanning the pprune sites for news…then find a colleague to talk through the latest issues…then think of you and try to imagine the stress and anguish you are suffering……
We will go on like this until its over Spot; "bonne courage" over the next few days and weekend...we are thinking of you and waiting for victory.
Tom
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All this defies belief, just stumbled here and have been absorbed. When all this is over what action can be taken against those in the senior RAF who are costing the taxpayer a fortune on a waste of time and energy.
Was the prosecutor ever a pilot? It doesn't seem so. The pilots were clearly responsible for their own terrain clearance. It's the equivalent of being "cleared for an instrument approach" at a non radar field, not following the profile and descending to descision height 10 miles out. Under some clearly defined circumstances the pilot is responsible for terrain clearance - black and white.
"No pilot flies into terrain he can see" remember Air New Zealand at Mt Erebus?? They were on a VMC sightseeing trip!
From someone who doesn't know any body involved (although I may have spoken to you en-route in my 737 LHR-ABZ-LHR) GOOD LUCK SPOT.
You have a fantastic support team, well done lads. "The only thing nescessary for evil to triumph, is that good men do nothing"
Was the prosecutor ever a pilot? It doesn't seem so. The pilots were clearly responsible for their own terrain clearance. It's the equivalent of being "cleared for an instrument approach" at a non radar field, not following the profile and descending to descision height 10 miles out. Under some clearly defined circumstances the pilot is responsible for terrain clearance - black and white.
"No pilot flies into terrain he can see" remember Air New Zealand at Mt Erebus?? They were on a VMC sightseeing trip!
From someone who doesn't know any body involved (although I may have spoken to you en-route in my 737 LHR-ABZ-LHR) GOOD LUCK SPOT.
You have a fantastic support team, well done lads. "The only thing nescessary for evil to triumph, is that good men do nothing"
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Hello Spot and Family
Had to change username as I forgot my password!! Some things never change!
My blood has been boiling throughout the whole worthless charade but as for the Prosecutors summing up - well, words would fail if I hadn't seen the same sort of perfidious nonsense in Brians case! Keep the courage up Spot - it is nearly all over, justice will be done and you will soon be able to get that famous 'Spot' life back together.
Heartfelt thanks to your 'team' and pprune for their efforts in keeping us informed.
BD
Had to change username as I forgot my password!! Some things never change!
My blood has been boiling throughout the whole worthless charade but as for the Prosecutors summing up - well, words would fail if I hadn't seen the same sort of perfidious nonsense in Brians case! Keep the courage up Spot - it is nearly all over, justice will be done and you will soon be able to get that famous 'Spot' life back together.
Heartfelt thanks to your 'team' and pprune for their efforts in keeping us informed.
BD
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Spot & Sue
Just a short note to wish you justice and best wishes for a speedy end to this debacle. God knows what you're going through!!
The RAF (... of dear beloved memory!) has done itself no favours at all. I would imagine that The Branch (ATC) will have a rough time recruiting the replacements for the steady exodus that will follow this travesty.
All the best,
Nige D
PS. Thanks a million to the Spot Support Team for the remarkable reporting of the proceedings ... b****y well done!
Just a short note to wish you justice and best wishes for a speedy end to this debacle. God knows what you're going through!!
The RAF (... of dear beloved memory!) has done itself no favours at all. I would imagine that The Branch (ATC) will have a rough time recruiting the replacements for the steady exodus that will follow this travesty.
All the best,
Nige D
PS. Thanks a million to the Spot Support Team for the remarkable reporting of the proceedings ... b****y well done!
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Hobo
I think you're wandering into VFR versus VMC and IFR versus IMC territory and this thread isn't the place for that discussion.
For SPOT I hope this Godawful farce ends soon
For SPOT I hope this Godawful farce ends soon
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A Thought for the Future
Spot, mate,
My thoughts remain with you all. Keep your chin up and give Sue a hug for me.
When this is all over, get someone to write a screenplay and flog the story to Spielberg. Even though the outcome must surely be inevitable, the tension is getting daft. Thoughts on a potential cast:
Spot - Brad Pitt (yeah, right......more like Chistopher Lloyd cira Back to the Future).
Al Turner - The same bloke that played Yoda.
Sue - Someone blonde and gorgeous.
Numerous members of the supporting cast - The Muppets.
Just a thought. Keep smiling..........nearly there.
BAGGY
PS Dave Butcher, who remembers you from ERAD days, send his best regards. There are so many people out there who are with you in thought and spirit.
My thoughts remain with you all. Keep your chin up and give Sue a hug for me.
When this is all over, get someone to write a screenplay and flog the story to Spielberg. Even though the outcome must surely be inevitable, the tension is getting daft. Thoughts on a potential cast:
Spot - Brad Pitt (yeah, right......more like Chistopher Lloyd cira Back to the Future).
Al Turner - The same bloke that played Yoda.
Sue - Someone blonde and gorgeous.
Numerous members of the supporting cast - The Muppets.
Just a thought. Keep smiling..........nearly there.
BAGGY
PS Dave Butcher, who remembers you from ERAD days, send his best regards. There are so many people out there who are with you in thought and spirit.
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I agree with Baggy, but what would the title of the film be?
Give me 2 seconds to think of one.
Ah yes got it.
AQUITAL
Hold your head high Spot and a big hug for Sue, when Baggy's finished hugging her or course.
Well done to Mick and support team.
Give me 2 seconds to think of one.
Ah yes got it.
AQUITAL
Hold your head high Spot and a big hug for Sue, when Baggy's finished hugging her or course.
Well done to Mick and support team.
Thread Starter
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Headonaplate
Ready4departure makes some good points and with commendable feeling. However, I must confess that the first time I read the posting, I was quite cross with a sentiment that appeared to say, it's OK to screw the controller but hands off his boss.
It's acknowledged that e-mail is a cold-fish and can easily convey the wrong message, as has happened here, in my view. The mistake that ready4departure makes is assuming that every SATCO is as professional as she/he is; most clearly are but, for time immemorial, there's always been one or two who have taken the money, made no waves in case they're noticed and quietly slithered up the ladder. In my time I can only recollect 2 officers that fell into that category; hopefully they're a dying breed.
You ask questions in your posting that I am able to answer but not willing to, it would be a breach of confidence. You surely acknowledge that there is considerable frustration amongst the branch that the wrong person is in the dock and fighting for his sanity/ career/ family/ and a host of other things that we all take for granted. You're right, baying for another head won't solve anything; Wrote8 summed it up nicely, Spot's SATCO will have to reconcile this issue in his/her own way.
Concerning the message to SATCO's and their Sup's, it's never changed - "take care of the troops, there's more to the job than the paycheck". SATCO's, by and large, deserve to be where they are. They have a motivated, disciplined and professional staff, eager to do their best for their colleagues and the aircrew, and long may it continue. The troops deserve much better than Spot was exposed to.
It's acknowledged that e-mail is a cold-fish and can easily convey the wrong message, as has happened here, in my view. The mistake that ready4departure makes is assuming that every SATCO is as professional as she/he is; most clearly are but, for time immemorial, there's always been one or two who have taken the money, made no waves in case they're noticed and quietly slithered up the ladder. In my time I can only recollect 2 officers that fell into that category; hopefully they're a dying breed.
You ask questions in your posting that I am able to answer but not willing to, it would be a breach of confidence. You surely acknowledge that there is considerable frustration amongst the branch that the wrong person is in the dock and fighting for his sanity/ career/ family/ and a host of other things that we all take for granted. You're right, baying for another head won't solve anything; Wrote8 summed it up nicely, Spot's SATCO will have to reconcile this issue in his/her own way.
Concerning the message to SATCO's and their Sup's, it's never changed - "take care of the troops, there's more to the job than the paycheck". SATCO's, by and large, deserve to be where they are. They have a motivated, disciplined and professional staff, eager to do their best for their colleagues and the aircrew, and long may it continue. The troops deserve much better than Spot was exposed to.
Spot, Sue and family.
I have been thinking of you all constantly since I found the details of your CM through this site. The information passed to fellow controllers, through normal channels, has been sparse and we have relied on these pages to keep us abreast of events.
Why it came to this I, along with many others, cannot understand but we are all behind you.
I have had the pleasure of working with you ( taught by you to be exact) in what seems like a previous life and I most sincerely wish you well.
This nightmare must be drawing to a close and you will soon be able to move on, take strength in the knowledge that everyone is behind you.
Keep smiling mate
SWB
Ps a heartfelt thanks from all at my current unit to those responsible for the daily updates on the other thread.
I have been thinking of you all constantly since I found the details of your CM through this site. The information passed to fellow controllers, through normal channels, has been sparse and we have relied on these pages to keep us abreast of events.
Why it came to this I, along with many others, cannot understand but we are all behind you.
I have had the pleasure of working with you ( taught by you to be exact) in what seems like a previous life and I most sincerely wish you well.
This nightmare must be drawing to a close and you will soon be able to move on, take strength in the knowledge that everyone is behind you.
Keep smiling mate
SWB
Ps a heartfelt thanks from all at my current unit to those responsible for the daily updates on the other thread.
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I've just got back from Northern Ireland so have not been able to keep abreast of the CM in detail but, thanks to Dick, I've got some idea of what's been going on. Here are some thoughts based on what I've seen and heard over the last three weeks.
One. There is no earthly reason why a pilot cannot be given a level below the SA if he seeks to go low level. He wouldn't accept it if he was IMC. He has his own - in this case - MVA/Route Abort Altitude procedures to get him out of a hole if needs be.
Two. Fifteen minutes before the (calculated) time of the accident the forecast was 3 oktas of cloud at 3000 ft which means that there were five oktas of clear blue sky hence it is probable that the lead was in visual contact with the ground.
Three. Four independent (civilian) witnesses, in differing locations in the vicinity - and at the same time - each saw "two twin finned ac in close formation", travelling from East to West. None of these people are related and, as far as we know, have had no contact with each other.
Four. Ben McDhui, and other peaks in the area, had their tops obscured by cloud with a base of 3000 ft (forecast) - the witnesses observed the ac below cloud and stated that the peaks were, indeed, obscured!
Five. If the ac were below a cloudbase of 3000 ft, they had busted the assigned level of 4000 ft! Unfortunately the lead pilot cannot answer that fundemental question.
See you next week Spot 'n Sue - I wouldn't miss the outcome for anything.
LOTSALUV,
Al & Diane
One. There is no earthly reason why a pilot cannot be given a level below the SA if he seeks to go low level. He wouldn't accept it if he was IMC. He has his own - in this case - MVA/Route Abort Altitude procedures to get him out of a hole if needs be.
Two. Fifteen minutes before the (calculated) time of the accident the forecast was 3 oktas of cloud at 3000 ft which means that there were five oktas of clear blue sky hence it is probable that the lead was in visual contact with the ground.
Three. Four independent (civilian) witnesses, in differing locations in the vicinity - and at the same time - each saw "two twin finned ac in close formation", travelling from East to West. None of these people are related and, as far as we know, have had no contact with each other.
Four. Ben McDhui, and other peaks in the area, had their tops obscured by cloud with a base of 3000 ft (forecast) - the witnesses observed the ac below cloud and stated that the peaks were, indeed, obscured!
Five. If the ac were below a cloudbase of 3000 ft, they had busted the assigned level of 4000 ft! Unfortunately the lead pilot cannot answer that fundemental question.
See you next week Spot 'n Sue - I wouldn't miss the outcome for anything.
LOTSALUV,
Al & Diane