Brian Dixon

Mickeydrip,
as has been said, many thanks for the updates.

You mention in your last post about charge 2 (Negligence) being difficult to defend. Please contact me via e-mail as we may be able to discuss matters. May be helpful, may be not. Better for you to decide as opposed to me wondering.

Regards,
Brian

DICK DOLEMAN

Just to let you all know that the Guild (GATCO) has maintained a presence at the CM throughout. Ted Tilley and Richard Dawson (President) were with us last week. Richard has important Guild business for Monday and we will have Chris 'Sticky' Stock ( past President) taking his place.

When the personal staff officer to the CinC does his Monday morning brief, I hope he has time to mention that we have now passed 20,000 hits on this forum.

As Mickydrip would say, "Have a nice day sir"

I shall be travelling back up to Helensburgh today and will try to ensure that you continue to receive the daily summary of events.

It took 3 days before Spot managed to hold his breakfast down but despite the immense strain he is under both he and Sue are in relatively good spirits. He has the support of family and friends every day. His RAF 'mates' have been particularly supportive.

Wrote8

First a few courtesies, then a couple of questions ref Courts Martial.

The Courtesies:

Spot: If you could bottle the good will that abounds for you round the ATCO bazaars right now, you'd be looking at more bottles than Tommy T has siphoned his homebrew into over the last 88yrs since his Mum sent him out to look for work.

Micky Drip - Bluddy good stuff (and I don't mean the homebrew!).

Dick D: sorry we never met, but I'd like to shake your hand for what you're doing.

Questions:

1. What is the legal position of Courts Martial these days in terms of "civil law" (i.e. does CM findings mean that a case cannot then be tried again in a civil court? Rights of Appeal to higher authority etc.).

2. Can a CM determine costs (i.e. who pays for Spot's legal bill when he gets cleared)?

Good Luck this week Spot

Stu B

Just another ATCO

Many thanks to MD and Dick - Only been following this for 4 days, but it clears up a lot of questions.

Spot - I'm another random ATCO you've never met, however, full support from myself and those I've been on shift with in Brandy sour territory

Mickydrip

Hi Stu,
Not absolutely sure about the correct answer to either of your questions but from conversations last week, the feeling is that Spot has chosen to be represented - ie his own decision to employ a solicitor and barrister (and who wouldn't with the possibility of a lifetime in jail on the horizon - that would have been the max term for the original charges of wilful negligence; the RAF have since scaled the charges down, the jail term would only be 4 years !!). Because it's his choice, the feeling is that he will be liable for his own costs, win or lose.

As you know, he's been a member of the Guild of air traffic controller officers (GATCO) for many years and they continue to be enormously supportive of Spot and his case; it has far reaching consequences if he loses. The Guild have agreed to fund up to 50K; beyond that is still being studied, but legal aid doesn't kick in until the costs reach 130K; now does that seem fair to you?
Spot's costs reached 6 figures at Christmas.
Also, can you imagine what would have happened if he had not been a GATCO member? As Dick says, the RAF would have tried to stitch him up like a kipper.

Concerning the CM status in civvy street, you'd have to see if a Senior Officer in the know posts a response; I fully expect Spot's team to appeal if the decision goes against him (that's only my feeling though)

Oh, and thanks for the curtsy!

Brian Young

Spot,

Sorry I can't be with you this week. Not sure if my ticker could stand a second week! Be assured that I will still be there in spirit.

"La verité est en marche; rien ne peut plus l’arrêter"!
(Emile Zola on the Dreyfus case)

"Truth is on the march; nothing can stop it now."

Brian

Wrote8

Costs.....

Now call me a bit thick, but if you are called to face charges, whether it be in a Court Martial, or before the local Magistrate, surely you are entitled to the full protection of the law (innocent till proven guilty) and the right to a Lawyer? Given that you will almost certainly need legal representation to defend yourself, the cost of doing so must be a liability against the prosecution if they fail? You would not be exposed to any costs if there was no "prosecution". It has to be a breach of your human rights if "the Military" (whose costs are borne by the Crown, and the fact that they have full time hired hands whose sole job it is to do their legal washing), expect to be able to "price you out" of your own defence by excusing themselves from paying if they get their case wrong??!! As my old Gran would say, "if its dangly and hairy and hanging under a kilt, its bollocks!".

Who is Spot's local MP? I feel a campaign coming on!

stopbar

Spot & Sue

Good luck for the second week. the more I hear and read the more I can't believe how crass the authorities are for letting this go this far, somebody obviously doesn't want to lose face, god knows why. As for incorrect altimetery and guesstimated tracks and positions, I was left speechless at the presentation of both as fact, thank goodness for your team and friends being on the ball. Any way good luck to you and heres to an early result this week.

Mark B

Redeyerambo

I feel like an interloper here. Been following this for some time now, can't really believe what's going on. I have no ATC knowledge, apart from Dolly, Zig Zag and Spot plus a few others, but the whole thing just doesn't hold up. Unfortunately, no one on this forum is on the Board, let's hope they see things clearly.
Spot all I can say is "I'm looking forward to seeing you on the first Tee in May ready to "****" the little Bastard". I'm looking at your "BAST'AD" trophy right now being the current holder.
From your Redeye mates here in Newark, keep smiling, it's almost over, see you soon.
Rambo

Mickydrip

In response to Wrote8: everything you say sounds good, apart from "certainly need legal protection to defend yourself". The view of the supporters up North at the moment is as stated, Spot engaged the team and Spot pays, as unfair as that may seem. He was not obliged to engage either solicitor nor his barrister and could have opted, we think, for DLS representation; judging by the shambles that presents itself as the Prosecution team, he was right to go his own route. Speculation about future costs is OK but the feeling really is one day at a time and we'll face the costs when that time comes. Nobody wants to build Spot's hopes up by suggesting that his costs will be met by the Crown if he wins, they may well be, we just don't know yet; the winning bit is the first hurdle, and although it's going well so far, it's a big hurdle with dire consequences if he loses.

One other interesting point that I neglected to mention in a previous brief about the plotting of the map by the advisor to the B of I : Defence asked him if he plotted the map (and moved the plot to fit the known crash site) in isolation, or was he aware that eye witness statements were available. To the man's shame, he admitted knowing of the eye witness reports and discounting them; he actually made no attempt to read them or take them into his calculations. It's outrageous.
More later from Dick, let's hope this tragedy finishes today.

Watch your 6, guys

geoffwoodward

I have no military experience whatsoever but have been following proceedings through this forum with keen interest as Spot is a pal of mine who I met through the Redeye Golf Society( led by D Dolman, say no more).

Being on the outside looking in I feel one word describes this farce, SCAPEGOAT.

Many thanks to Mickeydrip for the excellent bulletins each day.

To Spot and Sue
You have been in our thoughts for a long time with this hanging over you and even more so over the last week but itis nearly over now and you can start to put your lives back together again.

Spot I am looking forward to seeing you in May and partaking of a drambughie shandy or two with you.

Keep yer chin up youth.

Woody

McDuff

Good luck Spot (and Sue)!

Sorry to be so late to the support group by proxy. I was asked by Spot's current (?) SATCO to be a professional witness (I'm a fj pilot) a good while ago, but it was not until the (civvy) SATCO at Wyton told me that I have checked this forum.

Luv & Kisses

Matoman

Keep your spirts up Spot, I've been in the specialisation nearly 30 years and everyone I've spoken to, from the top to the bottom, believes this CM is a total farce and should never have been instigated. Justice will prevail and all the charges should be dismissed by the end of this week with any luck.

On the subject of costs, I would happily donate £5 or even more towards Spot's costs and suggest that all ATCO's reach into their pockets and do the same. We've all made genuine mistake and got away with them - we've been lucky, sadly Spot's luck just ran out

DICK DOLEMAN

For reasons that connot be explained right now, my posting will be restricted to the basics of the day. Please be patient and all will be made clear at the end of the CM; this will be in the best interest of the defence.

The whole day was taken up with the playing of the R/T tapes and the reading of Spot's 165 page statement made to the RAF Police. This was a very difficult and stressful day for Spot, Sue and his sister Barbara and was as bad as can be imagined; they were all close to tears, having to go through, yet again, a very harrowing part of their lives. They all showed commendable dignity throughout.

More tomorrow.

Brian Dixon

Hi everyone.

Here's a little tip from the Chinook campaign that has worked extremely well in the past.

Spot's MP is a chap called Iain Luke. You may like to drop him an e-mail to let him know of Spot's plight and the injustice of it all. Drop him a line on I think I'll E-Mail Spot's MP

Alternatively, drop a line to Mr Hoon - I'll tell Mr Hoon too! Don't expect a reply from him though!

Alternatively, send a fax to any MP you want. Use this excellent facility - Fax an MP

Hope these are useful.
Regards
Brian

short&shapeless

Carry on like this Brian and the MOD are going to try and change your name to a 'really, really, really irritating ppruner'

Looking forward to the outline plan of action in the next installment on the Chinook Thread

milatco

Fully agree with the sentiments of MATOMAN. I am in my 25th year as a mil ATCO although now very much desk-bound. By taking this to CM the DLS is putting a decent honest individual through the mill unnecessarily. How many ATCOs out there can honestly say they have never made a mistake?? - none!

This CM is hardly improving the morale of controllers throughout the RAF who try their hardest to provide a safe and flexible air traffic service to civil and military jets in Class G - a difficult and thankless task at the best of times. If I was still controlling I would certainly never even contemplate bending the rules now - it is not worth it.

Spot - apologies for not getting on PPrune earlier - I'm only 50% computer literate! My thoughts are with you as are those of my colleagues, many of whom have had the pleasure of working with you over the years. Thanks for making the ARTS Course relatively bearable back in late 89 - you had much better instructional technique than the instructor in a skirt!

Mickydrip - thanks for the sitreps

Regards

milatco

Mickydrip

As ever, Brian Dixon provides sound information, having had previous experience of injustice with the Chinook saga.

As things are so delicately balanced at this stage, and still in the judicial process, can I urge great caution in Brian's suggestion about contacting your MP? The case is still deeply in the judicial process and I don't think any MP would touch it for fear of an accusation being levelled of attempting to pervert the course of justice - a VERY serious matter, which would do untold damage to Spot case. Should things go disasterously wrong for Spot, and I doubt that they will, it may well be worth considering and, if need be, we'll talk again on the subject.

Best wishes to all.

fatjockslim

As a recent case in Holland demonstrates, ATC assistants can also be held liable. As a Mil controller for 17 years, I always accepted responsibility for my assistants actions, and rightly so!
I am sure that all controllers will acknowledge that you cannot always monitor 100% all of the time and a certain degree of trust has to be employed. It now seems that they too will find themselves in court alongside the controller, having to accept responsibility for their own actions. What degree of insurance will they have to find?

When will this madness end?

Thoughts are with you and the family Spot.

Brian Young

I have been contacted by "Mickydrip" (who is no longer in Helensburgh, but agreed to post a Daily Summary received from Dick Doleman, who is still there). He has been unable to log on to this site using either his or Dick's details so has asked me to post Dick's summary which is as follows:

"Day7 Tuesday 4th Feb 03. A particularly turgid and boring day, with the Prosecutor going over old ground (again), plus the arrival of Gp Capt Jim Stenson. The CM saw a replay of the Aberdeen, Lowther Hill and Alan's Hill radar pictures. The Prosecutor has not yet finished with his latest witness, so no appearance of the defence today, hence no report. We have hopes for a more interesting day tomorrow. From a personal point of view, I can see what "track" the Prosecution is on, so I'm sure it will be blindingly obvious to the Defence team!
Despite tales to the contrary, Al Turner does not shave his legs but reacts badly to hot curry. Sad to report that the ex-RAF contingent have done a grand job of wrecking his lovely vintage Volvo.
More tomorrow, unless we're still barred from pprune!."

End of message.

Brian Young