ATCO Shortage UK
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Also agreed Nimmer....the fault lies with those who should be protecting the individual from even approaching the laid down time limits. Unfortunately as we all know the operational management are either too scared to impose the correct measures for fear of jeopardising their own perceived career progress,are in complete thrall to the ‘company’ reputation (a global leader after all let us not forget) or lack the competence to make the decisions.
I have always felt that the first priority of the operational supervisory staff should be to protect their workers from the unfair pressures that come from higher management. A delicate balancing act for them I know but it has become quite evident over the last few years that the balance has shifted massively....you and your licence have to be your own top priority.
I have always felt that the first priority of the operational supervisory staff should be to protect their workers from the unfair pressures that come from higher management. A delicate balancing act for them I know but it has become quite evident over the last few years that the balance has shifted massively....you and your licence have to be your own top priority.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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I have never, ever been asked/told by any manager to work beyond SRATCOH, or indeed to encourage anyone to work beyond it.
Form SRG1410(?) would have to be completed for any such occurrence. This, I’m certain, would prompt more regulator action than a contracted service which has to curtail operations due to unexpected short-staffing.
Every airport knows what staffing levels are provided by the ANSP, and what the possible available cover is. Each airport will have its own view on what is reasonable cover during the day and night, and will negotiate contracts to suit.
It’s relatively simple analytics.
However, analysis rarely takes into account morale.
I’m not saying this is the case here btw. I’m merely saying that morale has an effect on an ATCOs willingness to go into work when not 100% - whether rightly or wrongly. What is “fit for work”? 100%, 99%, 98%, 97%, 96%....
(What effect does it have on my colleagues if I do/don’t go to work?)
Morale also affects an ATCO when considering if he/she wants to be available for an additional attendance. The terms of additional attendances may, or may not, suit, depending on the ATCO’s circumstances.
Mostly it’s figure-out-able, but, when there are unit issues (again, I’m not saying that is the case here) then cover may not be available.
Contracts are awarded on a number of parameters - which are all scored differently by the airport customer.
The airport trades off the differences (costs/benefits) of each tender and selects the most appropriate according to the overall package.
Occasional “bad press” is a reality of any business. Every business owner knows that bad reviews require many more adequate/good reviews to compensate. The audience is important too. What suits one set of clientele (cost), will not suit another set of clientele (service).
Airports are getting better and better at assessing and serving their main audience - whether that’s value-for-money, value-for-service, or a mixture of both.
The black and white of financial figures (sadly) often determines the outcome when it comes to determining which ANSP to go for. It doesn’t necessarily reflect on the ethos, and morale, of any unit and its personnel.
Form SRG1410(?) would have to be completed for any such occurrence. This, I’m certain, would prompt more regulator action than a contracted service which has to curtail operations due to unexpected short-staffing.
Every airport knows what staffing levels are provided by the ANSP, and what the possible available cover is. Each airport will have its own view on what is reasonable cover during the day and night, and will negotiate contracts to suit.
It’s relatively simple analytics.
However, analysis rarely takes into account morale.
I’m not saying this is the case here btw. I’m merely saying that morale has an effect on an ATCOs willingness to go into work when not 100% - whether rightly or wrongly. What is “fit for work”? 100%, 99%, 98%, 97%, 96%....
(What effect does it have on my colleagues if I do/don’t go to work?)
Morale also affects an ATCO when considering if he/she wants to be available for an additional attendance. The terms of additional attendances may, or may not, suit, depending on the ATCO’s circumstances.
Mostly it’s figure-out-able, but, when there are unit issues (again, I’m not saying that is the case here) then cover may not be available.
Contracts are awarded on a number of parameters - which are all scored differently by the airport customer.
The airport trades off the differences (costs/benefits) of each tender and selects the most appropriate according to the overall package.
Occasional “bad press” is a reality of any business. Every business owner knows that bad reviews require many more adequate/good reviews to compensate. The audience is important too. What suits one set of clientele (cost), will not suit another set of clientele (service).
Airports are getting better and better at assessing and serving their main audience - whether that’s value-for-money, value-for-service, or a mixture of both.
The black and white of financial figures (sadly) often determines the outcome when it comes to determining which ANSP to go for. It doesn’t necessarily reflect on the ethos, and morale, of any unit and its personnel.
Join Date: Aug 2002
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I have never, ever been asked/told by any manager to work beyond SRATCOH, or indeed to encourage anyone to work beyond it.
Form SRG1410(?) would have to be completed for any such occurrence. This, I’m certain, would prompt more regulator action than a contracted service which has to curtail operations due to unexpected short-staffing.
Form SRG1410(?) would have to be completed for any such occurrence. This, I’m certain, would prompt more regulator action than a contracted service which has to curtail operations due to unexpected short-staffing.
Unit management are expected to ask ATCOs to break it rather than close airspace.
I’d urge you to confirm with SARG and your unit management their views now rather than wait till it comes up.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Gents,
I’ve read this thread with interest. As a KK based pilot, and have spent many many hours at Shanwick/LATCC over the past 30 years can I make the following observations from my own pilot perspective.
Firstly KK DIR has closed several times for a few hours deep in the night for staff shortage. NATS has always scheduled the controller breaks/closures as so not to impact any scheduled operations. Unlike the summer season Ops they can get away with this without any impact on customers, airlines/passengers. I recognise other issues that effect ATCO availability in the winter - training/refresher requirements. EXCDS is an exceptional change this winter for training needs and hence off watch time, shortages at times are to be expected.....
Clearly if KK issues of night staff shortage hit summer ops the impact and airline reaction would be far more severe and I’m sure we all hope this won’t be the case.
As to working hours, a plea....
You folks are a safety net to myself and my passengers. A much respected safety net in my case. We are all under growing pressure. Some of my shifts are in excess of 13 hours under allowable extensions eg. UK - Egypt and back. They are shifts without a break or relief, and on return to UK you are my extra eyes and ears looking after and supporting me. Earlies seem to get continuously earlier - 0600L departures now the norm meaning 0500 reports at latest and awakening times of 0330ish (Earlies or nights?). I’ve regularly left UK airspace before your AM shifts even arrive to commence shift. The middle of the night start again is draining, and the couple of hours earlier awakening does have an effect on human performance overtime. Again, you are my extra ears, supervision and safety net.....
The plea, please don’t do extra hours without break. I need you awake, alert and switched on. YOU are an important extra safety net I hopefully don’t rely on, but definitely need. Protect your own profession, safety and licences and hence maintain your own current high standards!
30W
I’ve read this thread with interest. As a KK based pilot, and have spent many many hours at Shanwick/LATCC over the past 30 years can I make the following observations from my own pilot perspective.
Firstly KK DIR has closed several times for a few hours deep in the night for staff shortage. NATS has always scheduled the controller breaks/closures as so not to impact any scheduled operations. Unlike the summer season Ops they can get away with this without any impact on customers, airlines/passengers. I recognise other issues that effect ATCO availability in the winter - training/refresher requirements. EXCDS is an exceptional change this winter for training needs and hence off watch time, shortages at times are to be expected.....
Clearly if KK issues of night staff shortage hit summer ops the impact and airline reaction would be far more severe and I’m sure we all hope this won’t be the case.
As to working hours, a plea....
You folks are a safety net to myself and my passengers. A much respected safety net in my case. We are all under growing pressure. Some of my shifts are in excess of 13 hours under allowable extensions eg. UK - Egypt and back. They are shifts without a break or relief, and on return to UK you are my extra eyes and ears looking after and supporting me. Earlies seem to get continuously earlier - 0600L departures now the norm meaning 0500 reports at latest and awakening times of 0330ish (Earlies or nights?). I’ve regularly left UK airspace before your AM shifts even arrive to commence shift. The middle of the night start again is draining, and the couple of hours earlier awakening does have an effect on human performance overtime. Again, you are my extra ears, supervision and safety net.....
The plea, please don’t do extra hours without break. I need you awake, alert and switched on. YOU are an important extra safety net I hopefully don’t rely on, but definitely need. Protect your own profession, safety and licences and hence maintain your own current high standards!
30W
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Those that apply for HK are likely to be newer recruits - the more experienced guys and gals won’t let their DB pensions slip away! - the same newer recruits who are tomorrow’s OJTIs, UCAs, Watch Managers...an exciting prospect for the coal face, but a potential nightmare for the up-aboves?
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I think this news item and the ensuing discussion have been blown out of proportion.
Even a perfectly fully staffed unit would struggle with a last minute double sickness for night shift.
Service provision is not delivered with unlimited resources in any fields. We've come to accept that it's normal having to wait 12 weeks for an NHS consultant appointment, but there seems to be outrage at 90 minutes of closure in the middle of the night at Gatwick as a one off event.
Even a perfectly fully staffed unit would struggle with a last minute double sickness for night shift.
Service provision is not delivered with unlimited resources in any fields. We've come to accept that it's normal having to wait 12 weeks for an NHS consultant appointment, but there seems to be outrage at 90 minutes of closure in the middle of the night at Gatwick as a one off event.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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In days of old....... you could apply to HK, or various other overseas units, for a short-term contract and return to your UK unit with your seniority retained. Good old days!
Apart from 'Crown Agents' advertised posts where you were required to resign from NATS/NATCS with no guarantee of being re-employed when the overseas contract finished. Personnel also warned that you would lose all seniority and accrued pension even if you were re-employed.
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CAA view SCRATCOH as part of ATS licensing, according to HSE
'Several Articles within the ANO are concerned with the operator and crew’s responsibilities with regard to the fatigue of crew. ‘Civil Aviation Publications’ (CAP371 - The Avoidance of Fatigue in Aircrews; and CAP 670 ATS Safety Requirements) support these Articles. Operators are required to establish schemes for the regulation of flight times and not permit any person to fly as a member of crew if they have reason to believe that the person is suffering from, or is likely to suffer from fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or passengers. Air traffic controllers are prohibited from undertaking their duties if they know or suspect that they are suffering from or, are likely to suffer from, fatigue as may endanger the safety of any aircraft. CAA have informed HSE that they view the CAP as secondary legislation (similar to an HSC ACoP) and that CAA will not grant approval or a certificate unless operators’ schemes are compliant with the CAP'
http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetin...1204/c132c.pdf
'Several Articles within the ANO are concerned with the operator and crew’s responsibilities with regard to the fatigue of crew. ‘Civil Aviation Publications’ (CAP371 - The Avoidance of Fatigue in Aircrews; and CAP 670 ATS Safety Requirements) support these Articles. Operators are required to establish schemes for the regulation of flight times and not permit any person to fly as a member of crew if they have reason to believe that the person is suffering from, or is likely to suffer from fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or passengers. Air traffic controllers are prohibited from undertaking their duties if they know or suspect that they are suffering from or, are likely to suffer from, fatigue as may endanger the safety of any aircraft. CAA have informed HSE that they view the CAP as secondary legislation (similar to an HSC ACoP) and that CAA will not grant approval or a certificate unless operators’ schemes are compliant with the CAP'
http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetin...1204/c132c.pdf
Gents,
I’ve read this thread with interest. As a KK based pilot, and have spent many many hours at Shanwick/LATCC over the past 30 years can I make the following observations from my own pilot perspective.
Firstly KK DIR has closed several times for a few hours deep in the night for staff shortage. NATS has always scheduled the controller breaks/closures as so not to impact any scheduled operations. Unlike the summer season Ops they can get away with this without any impact on customers, airlines/passengers. I recognise other issues that effect ATCO availability in the winter - training/refresher requirements. EXCDS is an exceptional change this winter for training needs and hence off watch time, shortages at times are to be expected.....
I’ve read this thread with interest. As a KK based pilot, and have spent many many hours at Shanwick/LATCC over the past 30 years can I make the following observations from my own pilot perspective.
Firstly KK DIR has closed several times for a few hours deep in the night for staff shortage. NATS has always scheduled the controller breaks/closures as so not to impact any scheduled operations. Unlike the summer season Ops they can get away with this without any impact on customers, airlines/passengers. I recognise other issues that effect ATCO availability in the winter - training/refresher requirements. EXCDS is an exceptional change this winter for training needs and hence off watch time, shortages at times are to be expected.....
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Air traffic controllers are prohibited from undertaking their duties if they know or suspect that they are suffering from or, are likely to suffer from, fatigue as may endanger the safety of any aircraft. CAA have informed HSE that they view the CAP as secondary legislation (similar to an HSC ACoP) and that CAA will not grant approval or a certificate unless operators’ schemes are compliant with the CAP'
- No.
Then carry on working.
Are you fatigued?
-Yes.
Then you have broken the law.
No one should ever say they are fatigued while in position but must be forward thinking enough to state that in X minutes they suspect they will be fatigued and require a break. It would appear to be good sense for that time to coincide with SRATCOH maximum in order to not have to try and explain this Catch22 in a court room.
i certainly don’t fancy being the first to try.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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since the thread title is UK ATCO shortage I think my comment was entirely relevant, even if you believe it have poorly made by myself, in which case my apologies!
I’m entirely aware that service provision (sadly IMHO) at KK tower has changed from NATS. My point, if poorly made, was that NATS has also suffered ATCO shortages in its Winter service provision, however at an operational level position closures were timed as to make NO customer impact.
No bigger supporter of NATS controllers will you find in the opposite end of the RT world will you find.......
regards
30W