NATS Pay Ballot (The only vote that counts)
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 24
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From: Scotland
Expeditedescent
and later...
No, I don't get it. How can you say that your workload is related to traffic levels, and then say that it isn't? How do you quantify it as 8%?
This is a side issue anyway. I am not saying that the settlement reflects the workload of ANY of us.
fatcontroller
1/ That's why I turned down the chance of promotion several years ago. A move down south is a step backwards in my standard of living. Everyone you work with - admin, engineers, etc suffers from this.
2/ I don't doubt it for a moment.
3/ Problem is others here want to use stats to prove that they deserve more...
4/ As we all seem to agree, there were major problems before Sept 11th
5/ I leave that to the union - that's what I pay my subs for.
6/ I'd like to hear some examples of a job like that with comparable pay.
7/ Wages are paid from earnings not loans from the government. The money NATS has got from them isn't connected to the pay deal, but does show how badly the future had been planned for.
8/ Pricing policy may not be our concern but when the major shareholders are also the major customers you can be d@mn sure you know where their priorities lie.
9/ As I said in my original post, if ATCOs wouldn't take industrial action to stop PPP I don't believe they will do so for a few extra percent of a pay rise.
NATS_Not_Funny
I am not anti ATCO, I am not pro management. I am simply an ATCE with lots of concerns about the future, for me and for ALL my colleagues.
Traffic levels (and hence workload) have risen far ahead of reward (pay).
Why should that be acceptable, I mean if your workload had risen by around 8% a year and your pay had not......would you be happy ?
Why should that be acceptable, I mean if your workload had risen by around 8% a year and your pay had not......would you be happy ?
The link between traffic levels and pay is your spin.
Our WORKLOAD has risen by around 8% year on year, and that obviously relates to increasing traffic.
WORKLOAD, how hard one is working do you get the idea yet???
Our WORKLOAD has risen by around 8% year on year, and that obviously relates to increasing traffic.
WORKLOAD, how hard one is working do you get the idea yet???
This is a side issue anyway. I am not saying that the settlement reflects the workload of ANY of us.
fatcontroller
1/ That's why I turned down the chance of promotion several years ago. A move down south is a step backwards in my standard of living. Everyone you work with - admin, engineers, etc suffers from this.
2/ I don't doubt it for a moment.
3/ Problem is others here want to use stats to prove that they deserve more...
4/ As we all seem to agree, there were major problems before Sept 11th
5/ I leave that to the union - that's what I pay my subs for.
6/ I'd like to hear some examples of a job like that with comparable pay.
7/ Wages are paid from earnings not loans from the government. The money NATS has got from them isn't connected to the pay deal, but does show how badly the future had been planned for.
8/ Pricing policy may not be our concern but when the major shareholders are also the major customers you can be d@mn sure you know where their priorities lie.
9/ As I said in my original post, if ATCOs wouldn't take industrial action to stop PPP I don't believe they will do so for a few extra percent of a pay rise.
NATS_Not_Funny
In short, this is the worst time in many years to try to take the management on in a battle for more cash. Arguments about who should be paid what are meaningless. EVERYONE's future is at stake.
It's the wrong fight at the wrong time with the wrong people.
It's the wrong fight at the wrong time with the wrong people.
I have always said that the important issue is not what we settle for in this years pay round, it's what will happen to ALL of us over the next few years as the TAG management turns the financial screws.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 14
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From: London
Not Funny
OK it would appear we agree on somethings;
I don't remember being balloted re: industrial action over PPP - in fact I was told we couldn't do it due legislation surrounding industrial action and the reasons for it - I must confess I don't understand. However given the option I am sure many ATCO's would have taken action over PPP - may be even more than now as many will not act over pay.
I feel your discussion with Expeditedecent re: work related pay is a little strange on both sides. I agree we should have been rewarded in line with growth over the past X years to reflect our increased workload. I do not agree with pay related to production. It is a fine divide - we are not responsible for the number of A/C we move - we just do our best and work harder and harder as the industry grows, we're back to good will again and extending validations . Training and other duties. This is not productivity based pay as I feel it would be moraly wrong to be paid per number of A/C moved as this leads to corner cutting - something we must not be encouraged to do.
I think we should have been rewarded in line with growth to reflect our added commitment and effort - I can see where you are both coming from though.
It may be then - if you are happy in Scotland with a considerably higher standard of living that we in the south both at LATCC and NERC should receive a pay increase to equal your stanadard of living in a form not too different to the London weighting - may be then we would all be happy.
See Ya
OK it would appear we agree on somethings;
I don't remember being balloted re: industrial action over PPP - in fact I was told we couldn't do it due legislation surrounding industrial action and the reasons for it - I must confess I don't understand. However given the option I am sure many ATCO's would have taken action over PPP - may be even more than now as many will not act over pay.
I feel your discussion with Expeditedecent re: work related pay is a little strange on both sides. I agree we should have been rewarded in line with growth over the past X years to reflect our increased workload. I do not agree with pay related to production. It is a fine divide - we are not responsible for the number of A/C we move - we just do our best and work harder and harder as the industry grows, we're back to good will again and extending validations . Training and other duties. This is not productivity based pay as I feel it would be moraly wrong to be paid per number of A/C moved as this leads to corner cutting - something we must not be encouraged to do.
I think we should have been rewarded in line with growth to reflect our added commitment and effort - I can see where you are both coming from though.
It may be then - if you are happy in Scotland with a considerably higher standard of living that we in the south both at LATCC and NERC should receive a pay increase to equal your stanadard of living in a form not too different to the London weighting - may be then we would all be happy.
See Ya
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
From: Costa del CYYZ
Notfunny,
Let me quantify.
You earlier inferred that I was arguing for "performance related pay" type scenario, in line with something like pay according to movements handled.
That is not my point............however what I am saying is ATCO workload has risen dramatically and pay has not kept pace.
Do you think we should work harder and harder for less pay?
Oh and you say:
"9/ As I said in my original post, if ATCOs wouldn't take industrial action to stop PPP"
I don't seem to remember you engineers doing so either....perhaps that is why so many of you are now fearing for or have already lost your jobs.
Sorry to be blunt but if you act like doormats, then don't be surprised if management walk all over you.
You say you have over 20+ years experience.......well I have almost 30 years left to go, and its the FUTURE that I am worried about not the present. Living in the short term can only get you so far, at some point you have to bite the bullet and stand up for yourselves for the collective future.
Let me quantify.
You earlier inferred that I was arguing for "performance related pay" type scenario, in line with something like pay according to movements handled.
That is not my point............however what I am saying is ATCO workload has risen dramatically and pay has not kept pace.
Do you think we should work harder and harder for less pay?
Oh and you say:
"9/ As I said in my original post, if ATCOs wouldn't take industrial action to stop PPP"
I don't seem to remember you engineers doing so either....perhaps that is why so many of you are now fearing for or have already lost your jobs.
Sorry to be blunt but if you act like doormats, then don't be surprised if management walk all over you.
You say you have over 20+ years experience.......well I have almost 30 years left to go, and its the FUTURE that I am worried about not the present. Living in the short term can only get you so far, at some point you have to bite the bullet and stand up for yourselves for the collective future.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
OK folks I think we've done this particular argument to death now.
NATS_NOT_FUNNY doesn't agree with the majority of ATCOs and has voted accordingly. He has his reasons. Agree or disagree as you wish, but he has a right to express his views. Personally I disagree with him,and as I have mentioned, do MOST ATCOS.
Next up...
I believe we need to take a stand now. Let this issue fail, and NATS "management" will walk all over us in the future. NOW is the time to say, enough is enough.
Divisions amongst NATS Staff? It certainly seems that way. With PCS and the Engineers recommending the offer and the ATCOs rejecting it.. forcefully. Why have PCS and the Engineers reps recommended the offer? Do you ATSAs and Engineers want to PAY for the ATCOs pay rises? United we stand, divided YOU fall. What's going to happen if NATS offer the ATCOs a decent pay offer and you're stuck with the current offer? What are you going to do then?
One more point. Consider short term industrial action. There will be those that actually go on strike and those that go in. Eventually we've all got to work together again. Except that there will be serious bad feeling and non-cooperation between the two factions. NATS is leaderless and badly managed now. Just HOW are they going to cope with a workforce not only peed off now, but openly at war with itself following industrial action? They aren't, are they?
Solution? Two words already promised by NATS management. OPEN and HONEST.
Stop the spin. Offer a decent pay rise that the Operational staff DESERVE. Start taking to task those managers that FAIL or have FAILED.
Things NEED to change. I was one, among many, who was open to change when TAG took over. Sadly NOTHING altered and now TAG are reaping the reward for NOT doing a "night of the long knives" when they took over.
Discuss....
Rgds BEX
NATS_NOT_FUNNY doesn't agree with the majority of ATCOs and has voted accordingly. He has his reasons. Agree or disagree as you wish, but he has a right to express his views. Personally I disagree with him,and as I have mentioned, do MOST ATCOS.
Next up...
I believe we need to take a stand now. Let this issue fail, and NATS "management" will walk all over us in the future. NOW is the time to say, enough is enough.
Divisions amongst NATS Staff? It certainly seems that way. With PCS and the Engineers recommending the offer and the ATCOs rejecting it.. forcefully. Why have PCS and the Engineers reps recommended the offer? Do you ATSAs and Engineers want to PAY for the ATCOs pay rises? United we stand, divided YOU fall. What's going to happen if NATS offer the ATCOs a decent pay offer and you're stuck with the current offer? What are you going to do then?
One more point. Consider short term industrial action. There will be those that actually go on strike and those that go in. Eventually we've all got to work together again. Except that there will be serious bad feeling and non-cooperation between the two factions. NATS is leaderless and badly managed now. Just HOW are they going to cope with a workforce not only peed off now, but openly at war with itself following industrial action? They aren't, are they?
Solution? Two words already promised by NATS management. OPEN and HONEST.
Stop the spin. Offer a decent pay rise that the Operational staff DESERVE. Start taking to task those managers that FAIL or have FAILED.
Things NEED to change. I was one, among many, who was open to change when TAG took over. Sadly NOTHING altered and now TAG are reaping the reward for NOT doing a "night of the long knives" when they took over.
Discuss....
Rgds BEX
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: North of the equator, south of the river
I hate to agree with NATS_NOT_FUNNY, because I think I have twigged who he is, especially if he's a '79er, like me and based in Scotland. However, as another of those ATCE types. If you look at the salaries on offer in the very South of the Country then a roughly 6% upgrade on the average ATCE3/4 salary is doing "very nicely thankyou" and it's better than nothing. However 12 months down the road a NATS Engineer will be rarer than rocking horse dung and every day at LACC will be the 17th May 2002. You chaps in the Hot Seat can take the nice hot flak,Enjoy!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,155
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From: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Hello all;
As earlier promised... Here are some web sites where you can see how we did our pay reclassification. I see on some of the threads that some contend that to right your pay inequities, that you should work on a new pay system. That is probably true in and of it self, but you also need to be concerned about a living wage today and then begin work on a system that actually counts what you do everyday and pays you for it...
The Standard
http://home.att.net/~oceanview/jan12_1999_standard.doc
The Traffic Count order:
http://home.att.net/~oceanview/7210.57.doc
The Frequently Asked Questions:
http://home.att.net/~oceanview/ttap_faq.htm
regards
As earlier promised... Here are some web sites where you can see how we did our pay reclassification. I see on some of the threads that some contend that to right your pay inequities, that you should work on a new pay system. That is probably true in and of it self, but you also need to be concerned about a living wage today and then begin work on a system that actually counts what you do everyday and pays you for it...
The Standard
http://home.att.net/~oceanview/jan12_1999_standard.doc
The Traffic Count order:
http://home.att.net/~oceanview/7210.57.doc
The Frequently Asked Questions:
http://home.att.net/~oceanview/ttap_faq.htm
regards
