NATS Pay Ballot (The only vote that counts)
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NATS Pay Ballot (The only vote that counts)
Got mine today, voted YES, and posted it.
Remember, ATCO's didn't go on strike to try to stop the PPP, why should they do so for a few extra £££ per month?
What about everyone else?
Remember, ATCO's didn't go on strike to try to stop the PPP, why should they do so for a few extra £££ per month?
What about everyone else?
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As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
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As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
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NATS_Not_Funny, with rationale like that and your desire to make public your choice of vote, I'm surprised you managed to cope with ticking the right box, let alone understand the arguments.
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160to4DME, it is everyones right to make public or keep secret the way they vote in this or any other ballot. Many of those who have posted in the other topics related to this have made it clear which way they will be voting.
As for understanding the arguments...
Almost every sector in the airline industry has been suffering financially since well before September 11th 2001.
Most UK airlines have shed jobs in the last 12 months.
NATS has twice in the last eight months gone cap-in-hand for more cash to the banks/city/govt.
Although NATS PPP left much of the company management intact, the purse strings are now firmly in the hands of TAG.
NATS/TAG management are trying to REDUCE costs, hence the redundancies in admin, ATSAs, management and engineering.
ATCO wages are the biggest single outgoing the company has. They WILL try to alter terms and conditions over the next few years to attempt to cut this cost.
In short, this is the worst time in many years to try to take the management on in a battle for more cash. Arguments about who should be paid what are meaningless. EVERYONE's future is at stake.
It's the wrong fight at the wrong time with the wrong people.
Feel free to respond to these arguments, it's more rewarding than simply insulting people.
As for understanding the arguments...
Almost every sector in the airline industry has been suffering financially since well before September 11th 2001.
Most UK airlines have shed jobs in the last 12 months.
NATS has twice in the last eight months gone cap-in-hand for more cash to the banks/city/govt.
Although NATS PPP left much of the company management intact, the purse strings are now firmly in the hands of TAG.
NATS/TAG management are trying to REDUCE costs, hence the redundancies in admin, ATSAs, management and engineering.
ATCO wages are the biggest single outgoing the company has. They WILL try to alter terms and conditions over the next few years to attempt to cut this cost.
In short, this is the worst time in many years to try to take the management on in a battle for more cash. Arguments about who should be paid what are meaningless. EVERYONE's future is at stake.
It's the wrong fight at the wrong time with the wrong people.
Feel free to respond to these arguments, it's more rewarding than simply insulting people.
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NATSNOT FUNNY...
The management line regurgitated once again....
A few points. NATS is NOT in financial crisis. Mr. Everitt says so, CAA ERG says so. Read the report. Using NATS' own worst case figures it is ONLY £27m down on low traffic growth projections INCLUDING Sept 11th. In fact it appears that there may be upwards of £50m available, depending on how you juggle the figures.
ATCO wages may well be the biggest outgoing the company has. The ATCOs are also by far the biggest Money Earners the company has. No ATCOs, no revenue. This is apparently now a commercial company. ATCOs are not being paid what they are worth. Time to pay up.
It also bears saying again. We've already made OUR contribution to cost saving measures in the form of a pensions holiday for NATS management. Don't forget that.
You have exercised your democratic right. Others will do the same, but the majority will disagree with you. Respect their rights.
rgds BEX
The management line regurgitated once again....
A few points. NATS is NOT in financial crisis. Mr. Everitt says so, CAA ERG says so. Read the report. Using NATS' own worst case figures it is ONLY £27m down on low traffic growth projections INCLUDING Sept 11th. In fact it appears that there may be upwards of £50m available, depending on how you juggle the figures.
ATCO wages may well be the biggest outgoing the company has. The ATCOs are also by far the biggest Money Earners the company has. No ATCOs, no revenue. This is apparently now a commercial company. ATCOs are not being paid what they are worth. Time to pay up.
It also bears saying again. We've already made OUR contribution to cost saving measures in the form of a pensions holiday for NATS management. Don't forget that.
You have exercised your democratic right. Others will do the same, but the majority will disagree with you. Respect their rights.
rgds BEX
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NATS_Not_Funny
And of course the engineers have rolled over and had their bellies tickled again. That's why you keep getting shafted.
I understand from sources that you lot would have settled for a lot less than 2.2% - get a spine.
You have a roll to play in NATS, but you will only do it by standing up for yourseves.
And of course the engineers have rolled over and had their bellies tickled again. That's why you keep getting shafted.
I understand from sources that you lot would have settled for a lot less than 2.2% - get a spine.
You have a roll to play in NATS, but you will only do it by standing up for yourseves.
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OK Notfunny,
I will take up your challenge:
1: "Almost every sector in the airline industry has been suffering financially since well before September 11th 2001."
A: And this has what to do with our pay? How about the low cost airlines? Traffic in that sector is booming, which means more traffic for us to work.
The truth is many airlines (Sabena, Swissair, BA etc etc) were in pretty poor shape well before Spet 11th, and hard fact is many airlines found 911 to be a Godsend because it enabled them to make cuts they desperately needed with an easy get out.
Poor management is not our fault......why should we pay for it?
By the way we are not in the airline industry.....we are in the Air Traffic Control industry.
2: "Most UK airlines have shed jobs in the last 12 months."
A: And again this has what to do with ATCO pay?
To follow your rationale then, as NATS have laid off staff no airline pilots should be in line for a pay rise this year then?
3: "NATS has twice in the last eight months gone cap-in-hand for more cash to the banks/city/govt."
A: That is due to the folly and stupidity of the Govt pushing through the PPP. Why should ATCOs pay for that too?
NATS mismanagement is not our fault, neither was 911.
4: "Although NATS PPP left much of the company management intact, the purse strings are now firmly in the hands of TAG. "
A: Errrrr, so what? I am sure they recognise the company's most valuable asset.........it's entire workforce.
5: "NATS/TAG management are trying to REDUCE costs, hence the redundancies in admin, ATSAs, management and engineering."
A: A few lost jobs in the multitude of layers of management wouldn't go amiss either. NATS has always been too top heavy.
Nobody wants to see job losses, but it was inevitable with PPP, again this is not the fault of the staff who remain.........I repeat why should we pay for the folly of PPP?
6: "ATCO wages are the biggest single outgoing the company has. They WILL try to alter terms and conditions over the next few years to attempt to cut this cost."
A: Funny that isn't it....probably due to the fact that NATS business is about Air Traffic Control.........it's a bit like saying that NatWest's biggest outgoing is salaries of banking staff ! Come on !
If they attempt to alter T&C then they have to go through appropriate channels.......not sure what this has to do with pay either.......
7: "In short, this is the worst time in many years to try to take the management on in a battle for more cash. Arguments about who should be paid what are meaningless. EVERYONE's future is at stake. "
A: Disagree entirely......this is the best time to make a stand now. You are right the future is at stake, the long term future of me and my collegues, and getting paid appropriately for the job that we do. This battle should have been fought years ago, but it has taken until now to finally make a stand and say to management, this is it, enough. You have undervalued and underpaid ATCOs and we are not going to take it any more.
I never ceased to be amazed by people who swallow everything management say hook line and sinker. Do you not believe it is in management's best interests to offer as little as possible......I mean why pay ATCOs what they are really worth if they will accept less?
Instead of believing everything management (or anyone for that matter) says, challenge them..........they say there is no money available..........the CAA doesn't think so, NATS own figures can be read to say that is not the case.
I am pretty sure that faced with an ATCO strike (and almost certainly the bankruptcy of the company, and probably a few of the TAG airlines) they will magically find the money.
I don't want to go on strike, I don't want this uncertainty, I want the company to be doing well, and I don't know anyone who is looking forward to walking out........but at the same time I don't want to be sitting here in 10 years going over these same arguments, saying the same things and going round in ever decreasing circles.......a stand has to be made at some time, or we will always be underpaid.
I repeat ATCO staff have never benefitted from the success of the company during the boom.....why should we now suffer during bad times......talk about management having its cake and eating it.
Pay has not risen in line with traffic levels........this has been a battle that has been looming for ages, as management have not recognised the efforts and workload of ATCOs.
Time for them to pay up.
I will take up your challenge:
1: "Almost every sector in the airline industry has been suffering financially since well before September 11th 2001."
A: And this has what to do with our pay? How about the low cost airlines? Traffic in that sector is booming, which means more traffic for us to work.
The truth is many airlines (Sabena, Swissair, BA etc etc) were in pretty poor shape well before Spet 11th, and hard fact is many airlines found 911 to be a Godsend because it enabled them to make cuts they desperately needed with an easy get out.
Poor management is not our fault......why should we pay for it?
By the way we are not in the airline industry.....we are in the Air Traffic Control industry.
2: "Most UK airlines have shed jobs in the last 12 months."
A: And again this has what to do with ATCO pay?
To follow your rationale then, as NATS have laid off staff no airline pilots should be in line for a pay rise this year then?
3: "NATS has twice in the last eight months gone cap-in-hand for more cash to the banks/city/govt."
A: That is due to the folly and stupidity of the Govt pushing through the PPP. Why should ATCOs pay for that too?
NATS mismanagement is not our fault, neither was 911.
4: "Although NATS PPP left much of the company management intact, the purse strings are now firmly in the hands of TAG. "
A: Errrrr, so what? I am sure they recognise the company's most valuable asset.........it's entire workforce.
5: "NATS/TAG management are trying to REDUCE costs, hence the redundancies in admin, ATSAs, management and engineering."
A: A few lost jobs in the multitude of layers of management wouldn't go amiss either. NATS has always been too top heavy.
Nobody wants to see job losses, but it was inevitable with PPP, again this is not the fault of the staff who remain.........I repeat why should we pay for the folly of PPP?
6: "ATCO wages are the biggest single outgoing the company has. They WILL try to alter terms and conditions over the next few years to attempt to cut this cost."
A: Funny that isn't it....probably due to the fact that NATS business is about Air Traffic Control.........it's a bit like saying that NatWest's biggest outgoing is salaries of banking staff ! Come on !
If they attempt to alter T&C then they have to go through appropriate channels.......not sure what this has to do with pay either.......
7: "In short, this is the worst time in many years to try to take the management on in a battle for more cash. Arguments about who should be paid what are meaningless. EVERYONE's future is at stake. "
A: Disagree entirely......this is the best time to make a stand now. You are right the future is at stake, the long term future of me and my collegues, and getting paid appropriately for the job that we do. This battle should have been fought years ago, but it has taken until now to finally make a stand and say to management, this is it, enough. You have undervalued and underpaid ATCOs and we are not going to take it any more.
I never ceased to be amazed by people who swallow everything management say hook line and sinker. Do you not believe it is in management's best interests to offer as little as possible......I mean why pay ATCOs what they are really worth if they will accept less?
Instead of believing everything management (or anyone for that matter) says, challenge them..........they say there is no money available..........the CAA doesn't think so, NATS own figures can be read to say that is not the case.
I am pretty sure that faced with an ATCO strike (and almost certainly the bankruptcy of the company, and probably a few of the TAG airlines) they will magically find the money.
I don't want to go on strike, I don't want this uncertainty, I want the company to be doing well, and I don't know anyone who is looking forward to walking out........but at the same time I don't want to be sitting here in 10 years going over these same arguments, saying the same things and going round in ever decreasing circles.......a stand has to be made at some time, or we will always be underpaid.
I repeat ATCO staff have never benefitted from the success of the company during the boom.....why should we now suffer during bad times......talk about management having its cake and eating it.
Pay has not risen in line with traffic levels........this has been a battle that has been looming for ages, as management have not recognised the efforts and workload of ATCOs.
Time for them to pay up.
Last edited by Expeditedescent; 22nd May 2002 at 13:11.
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Why are such open and up front people so put out by someone openly stating they voted yes?? You all openly stated you'd be voting no didn't you? Do you just not like it when people don't do as you tell them???
And BEX, how can you have a go about someone regurgitating the management line and them disagree with them by saying "Mr Everitt says so" ?!?!?
Anyway... everyone has their view and is entitled to vote as they see fit. Might be interesting to see what happens now management's chief negotiator on this pay deal has decided to jump ship! (Mr Montague, for those that missed it)
And BEX, how can you have a go about someone regurgitating the management line and them disagree with them by saying "Mr Everitt says so" ?!?!?
Anyway... everyone has their view and is entitled to vote as they see fit. Might be interesting to see what happens now management's chief negotiator on this pay deal has decided to jump ship! (Mr Montague, for those that missed it)
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Galling though it may be, Not funny does have a right to his opinion. The pity is that as an engineer he feels his job is at threat (so Prospect tell us) so therefore he has to accept whatever crumbs come his way or he might get made redundant. It might be true or it might not. I don't know enough about the engineering side to know whether an Air Traffic engineer is easily replaced by someone from an outside contractor at a lower cost. If he is, then that is market forces and maybe Prospect should be negotiating separately for them and all the hundreds of admin staff who get offered the same as us for relatively little effort...
The point is that market forces make Area Control ATCOs a limited commodity and therefore valuable at present and therefore we should be rewarded accordingly. There are any number of pilots out there just waiting to jump into an airline seat so perhaps the present pilots also feel threatened (not forgetting the cost and time taken to train new ones...). We are not in that position either, and we are being regularly shafted by our local and central management due to a weak approach tken by IPMS/Prospect and the staff themselves in the 8 years that I have been in NATS. The time has come to change things, and the likes of NotFunny will just have to take their chance. I hope that his principles and agreement with the NATS logic will mean that, should we manage to achieve a better deal, he will be accepting only the first offer... I BET HE/SHE WON'T.
The other point is that we can rant and rave (preferably without getting personal), but we will have to abide by the result of any ballot, however uncomfortable that may be...
The point is that market forces make Area Control ATCOs a limited commodity and therefore valuable at present and therefore we should be rewarded accordingly. There are any number of pilots out there just waiting to jump into an airline seat so perhaps the present pilots also feel threatened (not forgetting the cost and time taken to train new ones...). We are not in that position either, and we are being regularly shafted by our local and central management due to a weak approach tken by IPMS/Prospect and the staff themselves in the 8 years that I have been in NATS. The time has come to change things, and the likes of NotFunny will just have to take their chance. I hope that his principles and agreement with the NATS logic will mean that, should we manage to achieve a better deal, he will be accepting only the first offer... I BET HE/SHE WON'T.
The other point is that we can rant and rave (preferably without getting personal), but we will have to abide by the result of any ballot, however uncomfortable that may be...
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Just seen on Sky News that the "Air Traffic Bailout" is going to cost £230m. I expect that is why there will be no big payrises this year and NATS bean counters are unwilling to spend a £50m surplus on ATCO wages.
Personally I think a great deal of this is down to crap management, especially in ATC and especially at a certain large facility on the south coast. The management 'style' creates increasing bad feeling amongst staff, makes us feel unwanted and held in low regard - "a problem to be solved".
RICHARD - LISTEN UP. Start treating your front line staff better - stop the childish, penny pinching, autocratic managers from continually pi$$ing off your workforce and do it quick!
I have worked for NATS for 20+ years and have never seen a militant ATCO before (quite a surprise really) its not all about pay. The status of ATC staff has dropped and that is a management issue.
Low morale is created and maintained by poor management. Maybe now some of them at least will be shown the door and improving morale and motivation amongst front line NATS staff will become the MAJOR issue before its too late.
Personally I think a great deal of this is down to crap management, especially in ATC and especially at a certain large facility on the south coast. The management 'style' creates increasing bad feeling amongst staff, makes us feel unwanted and held in low regard - "a problem to be solved".
RICHARD - LISTEN UP. Start treating your front line staff better - stop the childish, penny pinching, autocratic managers from continually pi$$ing off your workforce and do it quick!
I have worked for NATS for 20+ years and have never seen a militant ATCO before (quite a surprise really) its not all about pay. The status of ATC staff has dropped and that is a management issue.
Low morale is created and maintained by poor management. Maybe now some of them at least will be shown the door and improving morale and motivation amongst front line NATS staff will become the MAJOR issue before its too late.
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eyeinthesky... What I believe is more galling than an individual having an informed opinion different from yours is the arrogant and insulting attitude SOME ATCOs have to fellow employees filling other roles within the company.
Yes the ATCOs perform the recognised task of controlling airspace and landing planes... but without the rest of the company around you, who exactly would you do it for??? and who would pay you??
If you think you can run the whole company single handed then I'd be happy to see you try, but I think you may quickly discover just how little you know about what other people in the company do.
And before I have to read the outraged ATCO response... I know perfectly well I wouldn't have a job in this company if it wasn't for the ATCOs... but it works both ways.
Yes the ATCOs perform the recognised task of controlling airspace and landing planes... but without the rest of the company around you, who exactly would you do it for??? and who would pay you??
If you think you can run the whole company single handed then I'd be happy to see you try, but I think you may quickly discover just how little you know about what other people in the company do.
And before I have to read the outraged ATCO response... I know perfectly well I wouldn't have a job in this company if it wasn't for the ATCOs... but it works both ways.
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Undercover....
The point I was making is that even our esteemed CE admits that things ain't so black, whilst requiring the staff to roll over and accept whatever pay deal the management deem neccessary. It's his position that is contrary... we've got the cash, but you lot can't have any of it.
It is very true that inept management lies at the root of this whole situation. Now they get to pay the price of arrogance, indifference and sheer incompetence.
Rgds
BEX
The point I was making is that even our esteemed CE admits that things ain't so black, whilst requiring the staff to roll over and accept whatever pay deal the management deem neccessary. It's his position that is contrary... we've got the cash, but you lot can't have any of it.
It is very true that inept management lies at the root of this whole situation. Now they get to pay the price of arrogance, indifference and sheer incompetence.
Rgds
BEX
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Undercover: I assume your riposte is aimed at my comments about admin staff.
Firstly a small correction: I think you will find that whilst we do indeed control the airspace it is the pilots (human or electronic) who land the planes..
I was not suggesting that I could run the company single handed, but like many people I do wonder why you need (if you believe South Today) 800+ people who support the operation (and I know that includes engineers). I remember reading that when TAG took over NATS they commented that they could not believe how administratively top-heavy the company was.
Two examples of what I was driving at:
1) OCT expenses: Claim form submitted to ORO Swanwick to check that you are eligible and attended on the relevant day. Form forwarded to Financial Services at LATCC (now closed) for checking. (If incorrect a memo sent to claimant advising of 5p or whatever amendment). Form then forwarded to T&RE Edinburgh for further checking and payment. Efficient and value for money? I think not.
2) I have been in discussion with HR Swanwick since May last year regarding an issue over my relocation. They have agreed to take certain action, but their last letter to me was in February 2002 and despite a reminder over a month ago I am still awaiting any form of response or action. Deserving of a pay rise and sympathetic handling of staff (remembering that moving house comes next in the stress list to bereavement)? I think not.
Yet these people get the same pay rise as us as Prospect negotiate on their behalf. Have any of them (apart from maybe you?) actually spoken up in defence of or against the ATCOs at this fairly crucial time? No. They just sit there and follow the flock.
Meldrewv: If you follow this thread through, you will see that what you are saying does not hold water. For years now we have seen traffic grow by 6%+, but we have been restricted to pay rises of under 3%. Now that the business has taken a downturn we are expected to accept that as a reason for a derisory pay offer. Don't forget that NATS is not supposed to make 'huge profits' anyway. Why should we start following traffic levels now just because it suits them?
Firstly a small correction: I think you will find that whilst we do indeed control the airspace it is the pilots (human or electronic) who land the planes..
I was not suggesting that I could run the company single handed, but like many people I do wonder why you need (if you believe South Today) 800+ people who support the operation (and I know that includes engineers). I remember reading that when TAG took over NATS they commented that they could not believe how administratively top-heavy the company was.
Two examples of what I was driving at:
1) OCT expenses: Claim form submitted to ORO Swanwick to check that you are eligible and attended on the relevant day. Form forwarded to Financial Services at LATCC (now closed) for checking. (If incorrect a memo sent to claimant advising of 5p or whatever amendment). Form then forwarded to T&RE Edinburgh for further checking and payment. Efficient and value for money? I think not.
2) I have been in discussion with HR Swanwick since May last year regarding an issue over my relocation. They have agreed to take certain action, but their last letter to me was in February 2002 and despite a reminder over a month ago I am still awaiting any form of response or action. Deserving of a pay rise and sympathetic handling of staff (remembering that moving house comes next in the stress list to bereavement)? I think not.
Yet these people get the same pay rise as us as Prospect negotiate on their behalf. Have any of them (apart from maybe you?) actually spoken up in defence of or against the ATCOs at this fairly crucial time? No. They just sit there and follow the flock.
Meldrewv: If you follow this thread through, you will see that what you are saying does not hold water. For years now we have seen traffic grow by 6%+, but we have been restricted to pay rises of under 3%. Now that the business has taken a downturn we are expected to accept that as a reason for a derisory pay offer. Don't forget that NATS is not supposed to make 'huge profits' anyway. Why should we start following traffic levels now just because it suits them?
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Expeditedescent
A good analogy. Look at how many jobs have been lost in the banking sector in the lastfive or ten years.
Whatever gave anyone the idea that it should? Do you really want to link your pay to the number of aircraft you handle? Do you work more hours than 5 years ago? Would you accept upping the number of aircraft a sector takes to get a performance bonus?
Bex
Like many others you seem to hold the current management personaly responsible for all that you think is wrong in the company. Do you really think that new management would come in and start flashing the cash?
Be careful what you wish for - you might get it!
By the way, what are your union reps actually asking for as a percentage pay rise? Does giving other grades less as eyeinthesky seems to advocate form part of your claim?
eyeinthesky
How exactly are you being shafted? In the 8 years since you joined pay has risen as much as or more that inflation, the hours you work have not changed and the pension is still there.
I'm not on a personal contract so I'll take what my union negotiates for me. Sorry if that leaves a little less for you...
I'll take my chance as you put it. I don't fancy your chances much though if you are fighting everyone in NATS instead of just the managment.
A: Funny that isn't it....probably due to the fact that NATS business is about Air Traffic Control.........it's a bit like saying that NatWest's biggest outgoing is salaries of banking staff ! Come on !
Pay has not risen in line with traffic levels........this has been a battle that has been looming for ages, as management have not recognised the efforts and workload of ATCOs.
Bex
It is very true that inept management lies at the root of this whole situation. Now they get to pay the price of arrogance, indifference and sheer incompetence.
Be careful what you wish for - you might get it!
By the way, what are your union reps actually asking for as a percentage pay rise? Does giving other grades less as eyeinthesky seems to advocate form part of your claim?
eyeinthesky
We are not in that position either, and we are being regularly shafted by our local and central management due to a weak approach tken by IPMS/Prospect and the staff themselves in the 8 years that I have been in NATS. The time has come to change things, and the likes of NotFunny will just have to take their chance. I hope that his principles and agreement with the NATS logic will mean that, should we manage to achieve a better deal, he will be accepting only the first offer... I BET HE/SHE WON'T.
I'm not on a personal contract so I'll take what my union negotiates for me. Sorry if that leaves a little less for you...
I'll take my chance as you put it. I don't fancy your chances much though if you are fighting everyone in NATS instead of just the managment.
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Too right. I DO hold the current management ENTIRELY responsible for the current situation. I take responsiblity for the job I do, I don't see why they shouldn't take any responsibilty for the jobs they have FAILED to do properly.
I never wanted PPP BUT.....I expected TAG to put NATS at least on a proper commercial footing. To ditch all those managers (and others) that failed to perform, and turn the company into one where "everyone can contribute". They have failed on every count. Whereas I, and my colleagues at ALL NATS units, both ACCs and aerodromes, still continue to perform to highest standards.
Yep, I KNOW what I'm wishing for.
Rgds BEX
I never wanted PPP BUT.....I expected TAG to put NATS at least on a proper commercial footing. To ditch all those managers (and others) that failed to perform, and turn the company into one where "everyone can contribute". They have failed on every count. Whereas I, and my colleagues at ALL NATS units, both ACCs and aerodromes, still continue to perform to highest standards.
Yep, I KNOW what I'm wishing for.
Rgds BEX
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NATSNOTF_INFUNNY
quote:
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A: Funny that isn't it....probably due to the fact that NATS business is about Air Traffic Control.........it's a bit like saying that NatWest's biggest outgoing is salaries of banking staff ! Come on !
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A good analogy. Look at how many jobs have been lost in the banking sector in the lastfive or ten years.
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Yes, and how many of NATS jobs could be replaced by on-line controlling? I can just see it now, two spotty kids with gameboys, plugged in Row34 on the Virgin A340, doing their own vectoring.
Alternatively how many of the banking redundancies were the profit makers at the sharp end of money making, and how many were the support staff at the counters ? Oh and how many of the money makers took a pay cut ?
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A: Funny that isn't it....probably due to the fact that NATS business is about Air Traffic Control.........it's a bit like saying that NatWest's biggest outgoing is salaries of banking staff ! Come on !
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A good analogy. Look at how many jobs have been lost in the banking sector in the lastfive or ten years.
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Yes, and how many of NATS jobs could be replaced by on-line controlling? I can just see it now, two spotty kids with gameboys, plugged in Row34 on the Virgin A340, doing their own vectoring.
Alternatively how many of the banking redundancies were the profit makers at the sharp end of money making, and how many were the support staff at the counters ? Oh and how many of the money makers took a pay cut ?
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Have you been to Swanwick lately? Have you sat through a duty and seen just how we lurch from one near crisis to another in terms of staffing? What goes on on a daily basis is a shuffle from sector to sector on a just-in-time basis to prevent someone going out of hours. Flexible we are, but what is happpening is akin to asking a pilot who is rated on an F50 and a 737 to operate alternate legs on the two different types of aircraft. One day he will use the wrong bit of knowledge on the wrong type of aircraft and something nasty will happen. This is just one example of what is happening, and it is solvable by proper rostering and flow management. However, the desire to minimise delays, admirable though it is, means that local and central management will not take the necessary action to ensure that the various sectors are given no more traffic than they can handle with the staff allocated to them for a particular duty. This firefighting then occurs.
You might not think that this is directly connected to pay. Pay is the reward you earn for all the work you do and the environment in which you do it. The working environment at present is not a pleasant one (except for being able to watch the ducks on the pond instead of burnt out cars around LATCC!), and therefore there should be increased reward to recognise the efforts we are all putting in. This is just a small part of it, and all the extra reasons that others before me have expressed on these pages are another part of it.
I understand that you have made up your mind and you think the pay offer is the best we deserve. My point remains therefore that if this is so, why should you accept a higher one if that comes along? That should be against your principles.
By the way, I am not fighting all of NATS. I am simply saying that if you and others who are not operational are happy with the offer then perhaps the time has come for operational ATCOs, the majority of whom we believe are NOT happy, to have a separate pay deal to recognise all the problems we have highlighted.
P.S. I see the issue of character legibility has made it onto the news again today. BBC Breakfast had an interview with a guy from Computer Weekly and a reporter standing in a bush at the back of Swanwick discussing NATS non-action on the HSE reprt on character sizes. 'A prototype is under development...' they said.
Have you been to Swanwick lately? Have you sat through a duty and seen just how we lurch from one near crisis to another in terms of staffing? What goes on on a daily basis is a shuffle from sector to sector on a just-in-time basis to prevent someone going out of hours. Flexible we are, but what is happpening is akin to asking a pilot who is rated on an F50 and a 737 to operate alternate legs on the two different types of aircraft. One day he will use the wrong bit of knowledge on the wrong type of aircraft and something nasty will happen. This is just one example of what is happening, and it is solvable by proper rostering and flow management. However, the desire to minimise delays, admirable though it is, means that local and central management will not take the necessary action to ensure that the various sectors are given no more traffic than they can handle with the staff allocated to them for a particular duty. This firefighting then occurs.
You might not think that this is directly connected to pay. Pay is the reward you earn for all the work you do and the environment in which you do it. The working environment at present is not a pleasant one (except for being able to watch the ducks on the pond instead of burnt out cars around LATCC!), and therefore there should be increased reward to recognise the efforts we are all putting in. This is just a small part of it, and all the extra reasons that others before me have expressed on these pages are another part of it.
I understand that you have made up your mind and you think the pay offer is the best we deserve. My point remains therefore that if this is so, why should you accept a higher one if that comes along? That should be against your principles.
By the way, I am not fighting all of NATS. I am simply saying that if you and others who are not operational are happy with the offer then perhaps the time has come for operational ATCOs, the majority of whom we believe are NOT happy, to have a separate pay deal to recognise all the problems we have highlighted.
P.S. I see the issue of character legibility has made it onto the news again today. BBC Breakfast had an interview with a guy from Computer Weekly and a reporter standing in a bush at the back of Swanwick discussing NATS non-action on the HSE reprt on character sizes. 'A prototype is under development...' they said.
Last edited by eyeinthesky; 23rd May 2002 at 07:12.