BRS ATCO's - A question.
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BRS ATCO's - A question.
Hey ladies and gents from the sunny climes of BRS in the costa del south west of England -
I would like to know why it is very common for our flights to be vectored onto the ILS on 27 or 09 at BRS with a resultant fail to capture properly as we shoot through the localiser. I know this can happen from time to time, but it is now a standard joke in the briefing that what's the chances of being pushed through the ILS at BRS! Some of the guys I fly with reckon each controller is different, but I have found it to be across the board at BRS. Is there something we as pilots are unaware of that is making your life difficult, such as Cardiff and Filton traffic making it a squeeze? I would like to know so as to defend you guys in our approach briefing. I am operating the Dash 8 into the field and do wonder whether it is because we tend to as an operator fly the descent/intermediate/initial approach faster than the other Dash operator into BRS. Could this be the reason, are you not able to predict our speed, therefore track vector?? All interesting stuff.
As I say, I want to defend you guys not ridicule. It maybe something we are doing therefore we could help? Cheers
I would like to know why it is very common for our flights to be vectored onto the ILS on 27 or 09 at BRS with a resultant fail to capture properly as we shoot through the localiser. I know this can happen from time to time, but it is now a standard joke in the briefing that what's the chances of being pushed through the ILS at BRS! Some of the guys I fly with reckon each controller is different, but I have found it to be across the board at BRS. Is there something we as pilots are unaware of that is making your life difficult, such as Cardiff and Filton traffic making it a squeeze? I would like to know so as to defend you guys in our approach briefing. I am operating the Dash 8 into the field and do wonder whether it is because we tend to as an operator fly the descent/intermediate/initial approach faster than the other Dash operator into BRS. Could this be the reason, are you not able to predict our speed, therefore track vector?? All interesting stuff.
As I say, I want to defend you guys not ridicule. It maybe something we are doing therefore we could help? Cheers
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BRS ATCO's
Thanks for raising this. Why do we end up vectoring you guys and girls through the ILS at BRS? Well, it sure as heck doesn't happen by design or intent, that's for sure! The reasons I can suggest:
1. We have very limited controlled airspace at BRS and try to keep you within the confines of the CTA/CTR, whenever possible. With such a restricted turning capability, and the strong possibility that the aircraft is being flown on autopilot with an attendant gentle rate- 1 turn, it's odd-son that you will go through, especially if the wind is drifting you that way. Fact of life.
The Class G airspace to the east of the Bristol CTA/CTR is very busy indeed, especially with Grob 115s from RAF Colerne, which operate VFR, up to FL100, in all area between Lyneham and Bath. Add to that the amount of GA, and other militrary traffic and it's a zoo out there sometimes, when you look at the radar. Come and see it for yourself, please, next time you're here. Coffee's crap but the welcome is genuine!
2. Not all pilots fly such gradual turns - some crank it round more than others, believe me.
3.The rate of radar positional up-date may make it appear to us that the turn-on will work out fine , when it obviously doesn't.
4. We try to keep the vectors tight in Cat 1 conditions or better, aiming for a 6-7nm final at 2500 feet. If you want a different approach profile, tell us in advance, especially if you are training.
5. You're dead right about your appoach speed sometimes! We know that it can start at 230 knots (until 4-5DME?!) and that sure doesn't help...especially with the wind up the tail on the closing heading.
And lastly - apologies for any glitches! They are not intentional and we do aim to please as much as poss. Remember, we have a vested interest in what goes on at BIA. We are employed directly by the Airport company, not contracted staff. As one of our Critical Success Factors trhis year, customer service is very high on the list, along with on-time performance. Please feed-back any problems to us that you may encounter and we will seek to address them if we can, anonymously if you wish or in any way you like. Cheers!
1. We have very limited controlled airspace at BRS and try to keep you within the confines of the CTA/CTR, whenever possible. With such a restricted turning capability, and the strong possibility that the aircraft is being flown on autopilot with an attendant gentle rate- 1 turn, it's odd-son that you will go through, especially if the wind is drifting you that way. Fact of life.
The Class G airspace to the east of the Bristol CTA/CTR is very busy indeed, especially with Grob 115s from RAF Colerne, which operate VFR, up to FL100, in all area between Lyneham and Bath. Add to that the amount of GA, and other militrary traffic and it's a zoo out there sometimes, when you look at the radar. Come and see it for yourself, please, next time you're here. Coffee's crap but the welcome is genuine!
2. Not all pilots fly such gradual turns - some crank it round more than others, believe me.
3.The rate of radar positional up-date may make it appear to us that the turn-on will work out fine , when it obviously doesn't.
4. We try to keep the vectors tight in Cat 1 conditions or better, aiming for a 6-7nm final at 2500 feet. If you want a different approach profile, tell us in advance, especially if you are training.
5. You're dead right about your appoach speed sometimes! We know that it can start at 230 knots (until 4-5DME?!) and that sure doesn't help...especially with the wind up the tail on the closing heading.
And lastly - apologies for any glitches! They are not intentional and we do aim to please as much as poss. Remember, we have a vested interest in what goes on at BIA. We are employed directly by the Airport company, not contracted staff. As one of our Critical Success Factors trhis year, customer service is very high on the list, along with on-time performance. Please feed-back any problems to us that you may encounter and we will seek to address them if we can, anonymously if you wish or in any way you like. Cheers!
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Julian, thanks for the reply........No need to come and see the indian country outside your zone! I used to instruct in that very airspace going from Warminster up to Filton for IMC training. I can understand what you mean.
What I still find puzzling is that the other day on 09, we were asked to keep the speed up no1 as two jets up our chuff. No probs! Glad to be able to do it! So we kept 240kts all the way to 6dme. We still shot straight through the centreline, so being visual hauled it around myself autopilot off. Surely the controller having asked us to keep max speed for as long as possible would expect to turn us onto the loc. earlier. Interestingly, we then got a huge thermal including the tailwind that was blowing, and we got very high and fast. But as always dropped the dangly bits and put the airbrakes out and fell like a stone. We can get away with murder at times!!!
Anyhow, I hope you guys have begun to appreciate now that we at 'BE' tend to fly the descent from BCN at 240kts unless its bumpy. Whereas I believe the Brymon boys fly around at 190kts? We quite often have to slow down for our cousins! Hope this helps you guys in your tactical planning.
Oh, those new stands! What a nightmare. What they need to do is pull up all the old surface and start all over again. I have never seen so many different shades of tarmac and concrete in such close proximity! Can't wait unti the winter when its dark and wet again! Mind you the pattern looks more obvious!
What I still find puzzling is that the other day on 09, we were asked to keep the speed up no1 as two jets up our chuff. No probs! Glad to be able to do it! So we kept 240kts all the way to 6dme. We still shot straight through the centreline, so being visual hauled it around myself autopilot off. Surely the controller having asked us to keep max speed for as long as possible would expect to turn us onto the loc. earlier. Interestingly, we then got a huge thermal including the tailwind that was blowing, and we got very high and fast. But as always dropped the dangly bits and put the airbrakes out and fell like a stone. We can get away with murder at times!!!
Anyhow, I hope you guys have begun to appreciate now that we at 'BE' tend to fly the descent from BCN at 240kts unless its bumpy. Whereas I believe the Brymon boys fly around at 190kts? We quite often have to slow down for our cousins! Hope this helps you guys in your tactical planning.
Oh, those new stands! What a nightmare. What they need to do is pull up all the old surface and start all over again. I have never seen so many different shades of tarmac and concrete in such close proximity! Can't wait unti the winter when its dark and wet again! Mind you the pattern looks more obvious!
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Bes ATC
I fly into BRS (home base) at speeds ranging from 250 (LJ) down to 100 (pa34) and have never found BRS to be any worse than anywhere else at locking me on,
I notice on our Beech200 that the autopilot will not close with more than a rate 1 turn and will usually fly me through the Loc
when I am flying at more than 220 kts to get around this I hand fly the vectors and enable the approach mode when established.
I suggest as you are flying at a high approach speed that the problem is the bank limitation of your autopilot and not the
BRS controllers.
Why not go and talk to them next time you are at BRS
BUT dont drink the coffee !!
I notice on our Beech200 that the autopilot will not close with more than a rate 1 turn and will usually fly me through the Loc
when I am flying at more than 220 kts to get around this I hand fly the vectors and enable the approach mode when established.
I suggest as you are flying at a high approach speed that the problem is the bank limitation of your autopilot and not the
BRS controllers.
Why not go and talk to them next time you are at BRS
BUT dont drink the coffee !!
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Re. BRS ATCOs
To CaptAirProx: Good to hear from you. PPRUNE works! Point taken about the vectors when asked to keep the speed up. Maybe it was just a "bad-vector-day" by the ATCO - I have them from time to time, I'll own-up.
I think Martin Barnes has a good point about the autopilot response too - he should know, the amount of approaches he and his guys at BFC shoot at BRS every single day. Thanks, Martin.
I sympathise with your comments re. the apron markings. We're a victim of our own success, constantly trying to squeeze more aircarft, of bigger sizes, into the same amount of tarmac/concrete. We did send BE Ops fax-copies of the Apron stand layout - twice! Yes, I know it should be in the Jepps/Aerads but it won't be until probably July, at a guess. You can alawys ask for a "follow-me" vehicle or some directions from ATC any time, if that helps.
Despite the crap coffee, the offer is always there for a visit to our shiny new Tower and a chat with the team on duty. Open-door-policy to pilots, for sure.
I think Martin Barnes has a good point about the autopilot response too - he should know, the amount of approaches he and his guys at BFC shoot at BRS every single day. Thanks, Martin.
I sympathise with your comments re. the apron markings. We're a victim of our own success, constantly trying to squeeze more aircarft, of bigger sizes, into the same amount of tarmac/concrete. We did send BE Ops fax-copies of the Apron stand layout - twice! Yes, I know it should be in the Jepps/Aerads but it won't be until probably July, at a guess. You can alawys ask for a "follow-me" vehicle or some directions from ATC any time, if that helps.
Despite the crap coffee, the offer is always there for a visit to our shiny new Tower and a chat with the team on duty. Open-door-policy to pilots, for sure.
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Martin,
You raise a good point. Our autopilot is not the best at capturing, particularly when in strong crosswinds. However, my point is that we do this high speed approach whenever we can get away with it and very rarely have probs anywhere else on our network. BHD,IOM,BLK,NCL,LBA,BHX,LCY,SOU,JSY,GSY,EXT,DUB,SNN,ORK get my point!!!!!! Not only that, but when given the base turn heading almost immediately and with surprise in their voice they say, "er continue the turn heading ### to establish on the localiser........" and hey presto, whoosh we go str8 through!
I reckon its to do with this problem stated by Julian at the start, lack of airspace to fly within.
Julian, when its a reasonably VFR day below 2,000ft, we tend to go high speed. Its only when the ILS is being used in ernest do we slow it down earlier. Also on CATII, we fly at Vref from FAF. Now on a light Dash 200, that can be down in the high 80knots! May want to spread the word on that one. NCL ATC thought that we were impersonating a helicopter the other day!
With regard to the new tower, I would be very interested. We get a hours turnaround on some of our sectors, so may well try then.
Nasib, not sure I want to visit the Flying Centre and see all those poor guys sweating over IR stuff. It will bring back nasty memoirs!!! You never know, they might show me a thing or two!
Hey, Julian here's a good question.
Whats the preferential runway at BRS? On Sunday the 12th May, we landed 09 with a crosswind straight across. Now up at two hundred feet as always the wind had veered. There was quite a strong tailwind component. Not really a prob to us but was amazed at the Boeing boys still flying heavy charters! A bit later on the surface wind had gone around to about 150/160. We were now on 27!!!!!?????? What was going on? As I say, I ain't to bothered in the Dash, but it took me by surprise to see us still operating in a tailwind. Tell me more!
You raise a good point. Our autopilot is not the best at capturing, particularly when in strong crosswinds. However, my point is that we do this high speed approach whenever we can get away with it and very rarely have probs anywhere else on our network. BHD,IOM,BLK,NCL,LBA,BHX,LCY,SOU,JSY,GSY,EXT,DUB,SNN,ORK get my point!!!!!! Not only that, but when given the base turn heading almost immediately and with surprise in their voice they say, "er continue the turn heading ### to establish on the localiser........" and hey presto, whoosh we go str8 through!
I reckon its to do with this problem stated by Julian at the start, lack of airspace to fly within.
Julian, when its a reasonably VFR day below 2,000ft, we tend to go high speed. Its only when the ILS is being used in ernest do we slow it down earlier. Also on CATII, we fly at Vref from FAF. Now on a light Dash 200, that can be down in the high 80knots! May want to spread the word on that one. NCL ATC thought that we were impersonating a helicopter the other day!
With regard to the new tower, I would be very interested. We get a hours turnaround on some of our sectors, so may well try then.
Nasib, not sure I want to visit the Flying Centre and see all those poor guys sweating over IR stuff. It will bring back nasty memoirs!!! You never know, they might show me a thing or two!
Hey, Julian here's a good question.
Whats the preferential runway at BRS? On Sunday the 12th May, we landed 09 with a crosswind straight across. Now up at two hundred feet as always the wind had veered. There was quite a strong tailwind component. Not really a prob to us but was amazed at the Boeing boys still flying heavy charters! A bit later on the surface wind had gone around to about 150/160. We were now on 27!!!!!?????? What was going on? As I say, I ain't to bothered in the Dash, but it took me by surprise to see us still operating in a tailwind. Tell me more!
Last edited by CaptAirProx; 15th May 2002 at 09:38.
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Capt Airprox - as someone who frequents BHD, you should know that surface wind often has no bearing on the runway in use!
BTW I don't know about their coffee, but the tea is tickety-boo, nice tower, I wish our management were that good to the ATC staff!
BTW I don't know about their coffee, but the tea is tickety-boo, nice tower, I wish our management were that good to the ATC staff!
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Hi Standard!
Yep the coffee up BHD tower ain't bad either. You or one of your colleagues had us in stitches on the flight deck the other afternoon. Whilst giving us the clearance the controller said after "standard noise department" ooops!!!
I must congratulate you guys at BHD for managing to fit us all in around the big boys in there computer jets! A grand job!
Yep the coffee up BHD tower ain't bad either. You or one of your colleagues had us in stitches on the flight deck the other afternoon. Whilst giving us the clearance the controller said after "standard noise department" ooops!!!
I must congratulate you guys at BHD for managing to fit us all in around the big boys in there computer jets! A grand job!
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CaptAirProx - BRS Ops
Greetings again, BE Capt! Answers to your questions (not flippant, honest!):
Why the continuous turn-on to the ILS?
1. ATCO has possibly misjudged the radius of turn for all manner of good reasons, especially if you have set the autopilot to fly one of those oh-so-wide & leisurely rate 1 turns, doing 230 knots, with the wind behind you. 2. ATCO has been trying to keep you inside the Bristol CTA, to avoid Filton/FIR/Cardiff traffic and you are still flying that oh-so-wide & leisurely rate 1 turn, doing 230 knots. 3. He/she is distracted by the need to co-ordinate an aircraft with an adjacent unit or a colleague and leaves it momentarily too late to instruct you to turn. 4. You do not react to the instruction to commence the turn, presumably because you are still running through a check-list/doing a cabin-crew PA/lost your pen/looking at the approach plate/running through missed approach brief/spilled coffee in lap/dropped last vestige of bacon sarnie on something vaguely important/forgot the heading given/watching trainee FO screw things up/wondering what Fms is telling you/talking about last nights footie score...5. ATCO is having a bad day. We all do, especially as we get older. Experience though can cover up for a lot, especially if you sound cool on the RTF.
Why use 27 or 09?
Surface wind is not the only thing we work on when deciding runway in use. We also look at the forecast 1000/3000 winds off the forecast. Physically, 09 has a slight downslope which can look horrendous from the flightdeck, I'm told, to those that don't know even though the LDA is slightly longer than on 27. Could be critical on a wet surface for some types?
27 has a much longer TODA than 09, important to heavily loaded IT jets here going long-distance. We don't play "runway-roulette" more than we need so if the biggies want 27 and the wind is 50-50 for either end, that's possibly the decision made.
From a noise viewpoint, subject to the tailwind, the preferred runway for jet departures is 27, to impact less on the local communities.
I did a shift last week when the wind was 160'ish and we asked several aircraft if they were experiencing any problematical tailwinds. One said "yes", (slight problem only said a A321 driver), others said no sweat at all.
Other factors: The ILS on 27 is Cat 3, but only Cat 1 on 09. Traffic flow for a given period may favour straight-in approaches on 27 from the east off ABDAL, whereas one hour later the arrivals may all be off EXMOR and BCN, favouring 09, to save you guys time and money. We aim to be flexible, if we can. The converse may work for departure flows and tracks after take off. That's the beauty of flying from a regional airport like BRS, at present - we can try to accomodate your requests for RWY etc. although not always.
Does that help? Last comment: You, not me, are the captain of the aircraft. You are legally responsble for the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. If an ATCO tells you to do something which you- or the the aircraft cannot- or will not do safely, then it is absolutely incumbent upon you to say NO. That goes for speed regimes on final; headings which may take you into bad wx.; descent profiles which are uncomfortable, at best, dangerous at worst (high,fast and unstable approaches - big issue); taxiing to stands which are unfamiliar, the route to which may take you into conflict with vehicles if you don't know where you're going etfc... I could go on...It's got to be a two-way partnership to keep everything working safely, and that has to be the primary objective above all else.
If you get a chance, talk to Pat Harris, one of your 146 Trainers, B'rum-based. He was an instructor here for years and knows the ATC personalities/quirks well... for good or ill. I'll get some decent coffee in if I know you're coming.. and biccies. Cheers.
Why the continuous turn-on to the ILS?
1. ATCO has possibly misjudged the radius of turn for all manner of good reasons, especially if you have set the autopilot to fly one of those oh-so-wide & leisurely rate 1 turns, doing 230 knots, with the wind behind you. 2. ATCO has been trying to keep you inside the Bristol CTA, to avoid Filton/FIR/Cardiff traffic and you are still flying that oh-so-wide & leisurely rate 1 turn, doing 230 knots. 3. He/she is distracted by the need to co-ordinate an aircraft with an adjacent unit or a colleague and leaves it momentarily too late to instruct you to turn. 4. You do not react to the instruction to commence the turn, presumably because you are still running through a check-list/doing a cabin-crew PA/lost your pen/looking at the approach plate/running through missed approach brief/spilled coffee in lap/dropped last vestige of bacon sarnie on something vaguely important/forgot the heading given/watching trainee FO screw things up/wondering what Fms is telling you/talking about last nights footie score...5. ATCO is having a bad day. We all do, especially as we get older. Experience though can cover up for a lot, especially if you sound cool on the RTF.
Why use 27 or 09?
Surface wind is not the only thing we work on when deciding runway in use. We also look at the forecast 1000/3000 winds off the forecast. Physically, 09 has a slight downslope which can look horrendous from the flightdeck, I'm told, to those that don't know even though the LDA is slightly longer than on 27. Could be critical on a wet surface for some types?
27 has a much longer TODA than 09, important to heavily loaded IT jets here going long-distance. We don't play "runway-roulette" more than we need so if the biggies want 27 and the wind is 50-50 for either end, that's possibly the decision made.
From a noise viewpoint, subject to the tailwind, the preferred runway for jet departures is 27, to impact less on the local communities.
I did a shift last week when the wind was 160'ish and we asked several aircraft if they were experiencing any problematical tailwinds. One said "yes", (slight problem only said a A321 driver), others said no sweat at all.
Other factors: The ILS on 27 is Cat 3, but only Cat 1 on 09. Traffic flow for a given period may favour straight-in approaches on 27 from the east off ABDAL, whereas one hour later the arrivals may all be off EXMOR and BCN, favouring 09, to save you guys time and money. We aim to be flexible, if we can. The converse may work for departure flows and tracks after take off. That's the beauty of flying from a regional airport like BRS, at present - we can try to accomodate your requests for RWY etc. although not always.
Does that help? Last comment: You, not me, are the captain of the aircraft. You are legally responsble for the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. If an ATCO tells you to do something which you- or the the aircraft cannot- or will not do safely, then it is absolutely incumbent upon you to say NO. That goes for speed regimes on final; headings which may take you into bad wx.; descent profiles which are uncomfortable, at best, dangerous at worst (high,fast and unstable approaches - big issue); taxiing to stands which are unfamiliar, the route to which may take you into conflict with vehicles if you don't know where you're going etfc... I could go on...It's got to be a two-way partnership to keep everything working safely, and that has to be the primary objective above all else.
If you get a chance, talk to Pat Harris, one of your 146 Trainers, B'rum-based. He was an instructor here for years and knows the ATC personalities/quirks well... for good or ill. I'll get some decent coffee in if I know you're coming.. and biccies. Cheers.
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Capt - that might have been me, I'm one of the few who says "standard noise". There's nothing like fluffing your lines when there's an audience, doh!
But hey, you should ask to see our "line book" next time you visit, it'll have you in stitches. What other line of work would keep us amused this much?
I have to say though, I like the DH8-400, it seems to be able to do most of what the "computer jets" can do. The new livery's not bad either.
I can sympathise with Julian, while we have more space than BRS (to the south on 22, anyway) , we have space problems when we're on 04, and we can't afford to put you through the 04Loc, what with the mil. helos over the city, and those lovely TV masts at Divis. It's not much fun if I (better use "I" rather than "we" in case I get lynched tomorrow!) misjudge a turn on 04, but I know I can rely on you guys to rescue the situation
Ah well, back to the organised chaos!
But hey, you should ask to see our "line book" next time you visit, it'll have you in stitches. What other line of work would keep us amused this much?
I have to say though, I like the DH8-400, it seems to be able to do most of what the "computer jets" can do. The new livery's not bad either.
I can sympathise with Julian, while we have more space than BRS (to the south on 22, anyway) , we have space problems when we're on 04, and we can't afford to put you through the 04Loc, what with the mil. helos over the city, and those lovely TV masts at Divis. It's not much fun if I (better use "I" rather than "we" in case I get lynched tomorrow!) misjudge a turn on 04, but I know I can rely on you guys to rescue the situation
Ah well, back to the organised chaos!
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Blimey Julian, you know me to well!
Point 4 is very likely the cause!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nah seriously I suspect its all down to the confines of your CTA as you did suggest. Those oh to wide turns are because we as an operator must not go beyond 30 degrees of bank, if we do its an immediate challenge from the Pilot Not Flying and if not corrected a change of control!
Hey don't get me wrong, I am glad to see swapping of runways if it helps our track mileage. You guys are very accomodating for this and its appreciated.
Yeah know Pat. Will chat to him on some positioning flight about it!
What do I need to do to get up the tower? Call on the R/t or what?
Cheers
Ps Thanks for vectoring us around the storms the other day, your work was cut out with all the charters from the south and us and Brymon from the north. I love those sort of days picking holes in the radar!
Point 4 is very likely the cause!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nah seriously I suspect its all down to the confines of your CTA as you did suggest. Those oh to wide turns are because we as an operator must not go beyond 30 degrees of bank, if we do its an immediate challenge from the Pilot Not Flying and if not corrected a change of control!
Hey don't get me wrong, I am glad to see swapping of runways if it helps our track mileage. You guys are very accomodating for this and its appreciated.
Yeah know Pat. Will chat to him on some positioning flight about it!
What do I need to do to get up the tower? Call on the R/t or what?
Cheers
Ps Thanks for vectoring us around the storms the other day, your work was cut out with all the charters from the south and us and Brymon from the north. I love those sort of days picking holes in the radar!
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BRS ATCOS
Avalon: thanks for the generous comments - appreciated greatly! To answer your question re. airspace, we have to jump through many, many hoops in order to get some more airspace and some help from you guys would be very welcome indeed. You can file Air Safety Reports and MORs (copied to me, please) if you feel that being given a RAS/RIS OF NECESSITY when operating to/from BRS isn't as good as being given radar-control into the likes of Paris, Munich, Frankfurt, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Gatwick, Manchester etc (have I got the right airline, BRY?), especially when you are given avoiding-action vectors and are taken off the ILS in order to avoid a Grob out of Colerne, operating between Adbal and Bath. I need your (airline) support, for certain.
Standard Noise: haven't we met before? The RW gives is away, I'm afraid...keep talking to me.
CaptAirProx: Noted the 30 degree bank angle. Interesting but not unexpected at all. Come up to visit the TWR anytime. A word on the RTF is fine and the Airside Safety Unit guys can give you a lift land-side if you ask, through ATC. No passes needed. I'm on leave May 20-22 incl., back in the office thereafter most days. See ya.
Standard Noise: haven't we met before? The RW gives is away, I'm afraid...keep talking to me.
CaptAirProx: Noted the 30 degree bank angle. Interesting but not unexpected at all. Come up to visit the TWR anytime. A word on the RTF is fine and the Airside Safety Unit guys can give you a lift land-side if you ask, through ATC. No passes needed. I'm on leave May 20-22 incl., back in the office thereafter most days. See ya.
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Oh dear, that's another person who's recognised me, I really should avoid giving away these clues.
Julian - beware, I can talk the hind leg off the proverbial donkey as most of my colleagues could tell you. The house move has been put on the back burner.....for now.
Capt - you've got competition now, the computer jets were going visual 35-40 NM away this morning, for a minute I thought Pat G had jumped ship!
Julian - beware, I can talk the hind leg off the proverbial donkey as most of my colleagues could tell you. The house move has been put on the back burner.....for now.
Capt - you've got competition now, the computer jets were going visual 35-40 NM away this morning, for a minute I thought Pat G had jumped ship!
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Standard, bet they still slowed down at 20nms tho!!!!!!!!
Hey talking to Pat G the other day I only just found out that we in the Dash are allowed to do the overhead departure. Just thought that was some jet only thing. Will have to try that when I get back off leave!!!!! ATC permitting of course!!!
Off to the Channel Isles in a piston thingy for the weekend and then perhaps irritating you lot in 'CC' doing holds next week!
God, I think I have just given myself away!
Hey talking to Pat G the other day I only just found out that we in the Dash are allowed to do the overhead departure. Just thought that was some jet only thing. Will have to try that when I get back off leave!!!!! ATC permitting of course!!!
Off to the Channel Isles in a piston thingy for the weekend and then perhaps irritating you lot in 'CC' doing holds next week!
God, I think I have just given myself away!
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Capt - yes, you can do the LTO off 04, it was never meant to be just a jet departure.
If I remember correctly, it came about when Pat decided the 04 NPR was giving him unneccessary track mileage. He asked if he could do a left turn (no noise abatement needed), and the ATCO coordinated it with Aldergrove. As long as the lads and lasses up at Aldergrove can fit it in with their tfc, there's no reason why you can't do it, and they only refuse if they have a 25arr/07dep on the go. We do insist however, that you refrain from scaring the wildlife (gazelles and lynxs) over the city!
As for the computer jets, be fair, they've not had as much practice as you guys.
If I remember correctly, it came about when Pat decided the 04 NPR was giving him unneccessary track mileage. He asked if he could do a left turn (no noise abatement needed), and the ATCO coordinated it with Aldergrove. As long as the lads and lasses up at Aldergrove can fit it in with their tfc, there's no reason why you can't do it, and they only refuse if they have a 25arr/07dep on the go. We do insist however, that you refrain from scaring the wildlife (gazelles and lynxs) over the city!
As for the computer jets, be fair, they've not had as much practice as you guys.
