Problems at Swanwick?
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What Goes Up Might Come Down.
As David Gunson's epic and memorable monologue has been quoted, maybe time our lords and masters with the power to not spend the money listened to it and took heed?!?!
Apparently the BBC have been bitten by a hi-tech phone system, all mod cons, which failed and had to be scrapped at great cost to the licencepayers of UK.
Is this the ATC equivalent of FBW versus steelcables and tactile feedback.
OK l've got my tin hat on, start the incoming.....
Angels in post #49 says it better than most, and over here in austerity Blighty we're sick to death of being preached to and
'd on by bankers and politicians and so-called managers who pose as our superiors whilst failing miserably in their responsibilities and sloping off rapido to enjoy their self negotiated pensions and share options before the excreta hits the impellor.
And just WHO was the Capt Speaking caught on national UK broacast media APOLOGISING FOR THE DELAY???? I was always advised not to apologise for problems NOT of the company's making, otherwise the SLF will take the apology as admitting some sort of liability/responsibility for the delay/distress etc.
Answers on a postcard please, to my UK kennel.......
Looks like the terminal staff were failing to keep the SLF info'd which is guaranteed to hack them off big time! What has gone wrong with our ability to keep the pax in the loop, a practice which has always worked for me and others at the coalface?
Apparently the BBC have been bitten by a hi-tech phone system, all mod cons, which failed and had to be scrapped at great cost to the licencepayers of UK.
Is this the ATC equivalent of FBW versus steelcables and tactile feedback.
OK l've got my tin hat on, start the incoming.....
Angels in post #49 says it better than most, and over here in austerity Blighty we're sick to death of being preached to and
'd on by bankers and politicians and so-called managers who pose as our superiors whilst failing miserably in their responsibilities and sloping off rapido to enjoy their self negotiated pensions and share options before the excreta hits the impellor.And just WHO was the Capt Speaking caught on national UK broacast media APOLOGISING FOR THE DELAY???? I was always advised not to apologise for problems NOT of the company's making, otherwise the SLF will take the apology as admitting some sort of liability/responsibility for the delay/distress etc.
Answers on a postcard please, to my UK kennel.......
Looks like the terminal staff were failing to keep the SLF info'd which is guaranteed to hack them off big time! What has gone wrong with our ability to keep the pax in the loop, a practice which has always worked for me and others at the coalface?
Last edited by BARKINGMAD; 7th Dec 2013 at 19:13.
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The redundancy will be in place, however by moving to another site wouldreduce the capacity even more. Ops Director said on BBC News earlier 88% offlights went out... The back up operations will only be designed to clear theskies in the event of a major incident. It’s more than just internal comms too,as stated on an earlier post they need to contact their colleagues from otherANSP’s when handing over aircraft…
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Nats have a major contingency provision for a Swanwick failure but its never going to be invoked for a problem of this scale.
I'm sure there is redundancy built in the telephone infrastructure, but I'm still surprised that this brought NATS down in such a way.
Swanwick has a major training facility, virtually next door to the main site that can be switched to take control of the live environment. If that was deemed appropriate, I'm sure they would have done so.
I worked on the business continuity plan for a major call centre. During the process I was staggered to find that the UK is littered with fully functioning, but vacant call centres. Desks, PC's the lot... People throw a lot of money at this.
I'm not comparing a call centre to NATS with their bespoke kit. But the principles are the same. Diverse routing, multiple pathways, redundancy... all built in from the start.
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<<Swanwick has a major training facility, virtually next door to the main site that can be switched to take control of the live environment. If that was deemed appropriate, I'm sure they would have done so.>>
But where do you get the staff to man it in an emergency? When I moved from Heathrow to West Drayton with the Heathrow Approach sector, staffing was arranged so that both units were manned until after the move had been proved successful. When something breaks down you can't simply magic-up a whole ATC watch!
But where do you get the staff to man it in an emergency? When I moved from Heathrow to West Drayton with the Heathrow Approach sector, staffing was arranged so that both units were manned until after the move had been proved successful. When something breaks down you can't simply magic-up a whole ATC watch!
More than just an ATCO
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Just when you think you have developed a fool-proof system along will come a better fool.
When MUAC was opened we had duplicated, even triplicated phone lines. Unfortunately all came together just outside the building and as there was a bit too much cable a couple of Esses were laid. Unfortunately not copied onto the drawings and forgotten about until some ground works had to be done. It went very quiet in the Ops. Room.
Interesting that the Beeb decided to talk to a representative of Ryanair in the light of some of MOL's previous diatribes against the system. Anything can be fixed if you throw enough money at it, but would Ryanair be prepared to pay the price.
NAROBS, as has been explained the problem lay in the VCCS, If you don't have the backup in the Ops. Room what do you expect staff to do; run down the road to the nearest phone box?
Although I haven't been to Swanwick since it opened I doubt if this is the case. This would leave the whole system open to abuse, In any case the VCCS would be the same.
When MUAC was opened we had duplicated, even triplicated phone lines. Unfortunately all came together just outside the building and as there was a bit too much cable a couple of Esses were laid. Unfortunately not copied onto the drawings and forgotten about until some ground works had to be done. It went very quiet in the Ops. Room.
Interesting that the Beeb decided to talk to a representative of Ryanair in the light of some of MOL's previous diatribes against the system. Anything can be fixed if you throw enough money at it, but would Ryanair be prepared to pay the price.
NAROBS, as has been explained the problem lay in the VCCS, If you don't have the backup in the Ops. Room what do you expect staff to do; run down the road to the nearest phone box?
Swanwick has a major training facility, virtually next door to the main site that can be switched to take control of the live environment
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I'm sure there is redundancy built in the telephone infrastructure, but I'm still surprised that this brought NATS down in such a way.
As of 19.30 we had handled 3,250 flights today - around 90% of the traffic handled last Saturday (3,613 flights)
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I worked on the business continuity plan for a major call centre. During the process I was staggered to find that the UK is littered with fully functioning, but vacant call centres. Desks, PC's the lot... People throw a lot of money at this.
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I believe that he knows exactly what he was talking about. The contingency system (I helped design/install it) is a 'clear the skies' system not designed for as failure like today's. The amount of traffic it could move is far lower than that which was moved in today's failure mode and the risk of swinging all the data/comms over to the contingency would require a much more dire failure before it would be even considered.
Not being a professional in ATC matters, I'm still of the opinion that Angels in post 48 had it right. In so many cases in, so many industries, is this the case. Followed by "lessons will be learnt" and those responsible going away with a big pay off.
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You're showing your age. I remember the telexes with NNNN and ZCZC and the QK QD QF codes etc on the old AIRIMP systems.
Back to topic, I had friends going back to SA tonight on three separate flights, and despite dire predictions, all left as scheduled.
Back to topic, I had friends going back to SA tonight on three separate flights, and despite dire predictions, all left as scheduled.
None but a blockhead
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I suppose that there won't be any details of what happened made public, such as whether it was a result of the Scottish MIL integration, and that's so mired in security and politics that it would be otiose to pursue further - at least here!
Some assurance that it has been properly understood and that it won't happen again would be welcome, though. As a sleazy tech hack journo with an unhealthy interest in aviation, I'm going to have to keep digging...
Some assurance that it has been properly understood and that it won't happen again would be welcome, though. As a sleazy tech hack journo with an unhealthy interest in aviation, I'm going to have to keep digging...
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2 December, 2013
NATS PAYS £15.5M INTERIM DIVIDEND TO SHAREHOLDERS
NATS, the UK's leading provider of air navigation services, paid a second interim dividend of £15.5m on 2 December 2013 in respect of the year ending 31 March 2014. This brings the total dividends paid for this financial year to £62 million.
NATS (En Route) plc, the company's economically regulated provider of en route air traffic services, funded £14.25m of the dividend with the remaining £1.25m coming from NATS (Services) Ltd, the non-regulated business providing airport air traffic services and consultancy.
ENDS
NATS PAYS £15.5M INTERIM DIVIDEND TO SHAREHOLDERS
NATS, the UK's leading provider of air navigation services, paid a second interim dividend of £15.5m on 2 December 2013 in respect of the year ending 31 March 2014. This brings the total dividends paid for this financial year to £62 million.
NATS (En Route) plc, the company's economically regulated provider of en route air traffic services, funded £14.25m of the dividend with the remaining £1.25m coming from NATS (Services) Ltd, the non-regulated business providing airport air traffic services and consultancy.
ENDS
A system on an aircraft goes unserviceable, the aircraft returns to earth and the thread is started and locked immediately. An ATC system goes US and the world has ended. Comparing the frequency of the two, ATC systems do pretty well. Well played Poms. Safety first.
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Dividends to shareholders
If shareholders didn't get dividends, then they wouldn't invest in a company. That's what drives the economy. (And, incidentally, that's what pays most pensions)
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Software
What few people understand about software, is that software is like Swiss cheese. Full of holes, but only the ones that matter get found and fixed , by testing and through use. There will always be a few that matter and only show up later though.
Haven't you noticed how often your IPhone crashes ? At least they startup again so fast you are hardly aware. That is quality, whereas Windows stuff tends to just lock up until you shut it down & restart it yourself.
Software, an art of the unknown.
Whereas Testing sets out to find what its looking for, anything else being by accident.
Haven't you noticed how often your IPhone crashes ? At least they startup again so fast you are hardly aware. That is quality, whereas Windows stuff tends to just lock up until you shut it down & restart it yourself.
Software, an art of the unknown.
Whereas Testing sets out to find what its looking for, anything else being by accident.
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You can be sorry for a situation and its impact on passengers without knowing what it is or being responsible for it. Just take care to be clear you are empathising and not apologising.
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Well NATS did pretty well to keep things going yesterday. Much like Heathrow, which operates at high capacity day in day out, when something goes wrong, there will be what seems like havoc. The vast majority of flights got away. The problem is, that the small minority is a significant amount of people.
NERL shifts millions of passengers every year with minimal delay, which goes unnoticed. Some other states in Europe do not achieve the same.
The days of manual operations are gone and technology is the only way to enable centres to shift such volumes of traffic. Any backup facility in this scenario, would have only reduced capacity further. Unfortunately, technology does have it occasional drawbacks as anyone with a PC will know.
NERL shifts millions of passengers every year with minimal delay, which goes unnoticed. Some other states in Europe do not achieve the same.
The days of manual operations are gone and technology is the only way to enable centres to shift such volumes of traffic. Any backup facility in this scenario, would have only reduced capacity further. Unfortunately, technology does have it occasional drawbacks as anyone with a PC will know.
Last edited by EmergingCyclogenesis; 8th Dec 2013 at 08:30.