View Poll Results: My reaction to the NATS pay proposal is:
Great !! Well done to NATS for finding money for a small, responsible award.
6
2.55%
Times are hard, so this is the best we could have hoped for.
21
8.94%
I'm not happy, but we must push for a better award next year.
16
6.81%
I'm totally opposed to this so-called rise. Given a vote, I'd favour industrial action.
192
81.70%
Voters: 235. This poll is closed
NATS pay offer
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Hi ...just to say the Assistants strike was in 1977....must admit I am glad I got out of ATC when NERC was opened,but the only way to get anything from NATS is to stand together...however if you are stiking for .5-1% more think how much it will cost you in lost salary.
Join Date: May 2001
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Slurp,
Personally I do not advocate industrial action to the point of striking over pay issues and certainly not the offer made last month. However, I have to disagree with you when you write that the cost of lost salary for a 0.5 -1% increase on the offer would be more than the sum gained. Sure, in the short term a week long day strike would cost (for arguments sake, taking a salary of 50k) about £1000. Now, an increase of just 0.5% consolidated would make that amount up in four years, not allowing for further pay increases/incremental rises thereafter. Assuming said ATCO has about 15 years left at work, the loss of £1000 this year could make (assuming the action were successful) about £5000 or £6000 difference to the end salary.
As I have said - I'm not debating the rights and wrongs of industrial action, nor whether its worth it for the myriad of reasons other than pay, however I am debating the sums!
(these figure are not based on my own circumstances and so there may be a little guesswork here - maths was never my forte, but I'm fairly sure that this makes sense. If not - apologies and I'll crawl back under my stone...)
tug 3,
as I understand it the pay offer can be withdrawn by management if one if the three union BECs fails to recommend the offer to its members. Therefore, irrespective of any results, should NATS management wish, the offer could be withdrawn to all staff making the ATCOs even more unpopular!
- mixed emotions!
Personally I do not advocate industrial action to the point of striking over pay issues and certainly not the offer made last month. However, I have to disagree with you when you write that the cost of lost salary for a 0.5 -1% increase on the offer would be more than the sum gained. Sure, in the short term a week long day strike would cost (for arguments sake, taking a salary of 50k) about £1000. Now, an increase of just 0.5% consolidated would make that amount up in four years, not allowing for further pay increases/incremental rises thereafter. Assuming said ATCO has about 15 years left at work, the loss of £1000 this year could make (assuming the action were successful) about £5000 or £6000 difference to the end salary.
As I have said - I'm not debating the rights and wrongs of industrial action, nor whether its worth it for the myriad of reasons other than pay, however I am debating the sums!
(these figure are not based on my own circumstances and so there may be a little guesswork here - maths was never my forte, but I'm fairly sure that this makes sense. If not - apologies and I'll crawl back under my stone...)
tug 3,
as I understand it the pay offer can be withdrawn by management if one if the three union BECs fails to recommend the offer to its members. Therefore, irrespective of any results, should NATS management wish, the offer could be withdrawn to all staff making the ATCOs even more unpopular!
- mixed emotions!
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Maybe the time has come for the ATCOs to break away from the Engineers and the ATSAs.
At present there is a major shortage of ATCOs and therefore we are in a stronger bargaining position than either of the other groups. If they see fit to accept this c**p pay offer then good luck to them.
Remember NATS are making NO contributions to pensions at present and one of the members of the "hard up" AG is about to make a £400 million bid for a rival airline-hardly a small amount of cash.
Let's give a strong message when it comes to the pay ballot. If we don't on this one it won't be long till the AG come after us over Working Practices.
I also believe it's time for the ATCOs to have a full time national rep from prospect and I think we should all be prepared to pay increased dues to allow this to happen.
At present there is a major shortage of ATCOs and therefore we are in a stronger bargaining position than either of the other groups. If they see fit to accept this c**p pay offer then good luck to them.
Remember NATS are making NO contributions to pensions at present and one of the members of the "hard up" AG is about to make a £400 million bid for a rival airline-hardly a small amount of cash.
Let's give a strong message when it comes to the pay ballot. If we don't on this one it won't be long till the AG come after us over Working Practices.
I also believe it's time for the ATCOs to have a full time national rep from prospect and I think we should all be prepared to pay increased dues to allow this to happen.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Standard Speeds, trouble is on that basis you would have to do the same every year or so and would thus always be playing catchup! Also don't forget strike days are deducted from pensionable employment and then add in the bad feeling (I've been there) that strikes engender - they won't ALL go out, trust me.
Just needs very careful thinking about. And don't think you can just stop doing things, e.g. OJT as you choose. Management will present you with a piece of paper which you either sign, agreeing to work NORMALLY, or you will be suspended (I've been there too). Tends to get it over with quicker when you are facing an open ended NO PAY situation! Don't forget there are only about 18 work days a month, so for every day you strike you will lose one eighteenth of your months pay, or around £275 per day for senior ATCO2s! (1 cycle = £1650 loss)
Sadly it also seems to me that what is being advocated by some ATCOs on this group is that the rest of the NATS staff can get stuffed as long as the best paid NATS employees get a big pay increase Divide and rule is alive and well.
Just pointing out some of the issues......
Just needs very careful thinking about. And don't think you can just stop doing things, e.g. OJT as you choose. Management will present you with a piece of paper which you either sign, agreeing to work NORMALLY, or you will be suspended (I've been there too). Tends to get it over with quicker when you are facing an open ended NO PAY situation! Don't forget there are only about 18 work days a month, so for every day you strike you will lose one eighteenth of your months pay, or around £275 per day for senior ATCO2s! (1 cycle = £1650 loss)
Sadly it also seems to me that what is being advocated by some ATCOs on this group is that the rest of the NATS staff can get stuffed as long as the best paid NATS employees get a big pay increase
Divide and rule is alive and well.Just pointing out some of the issues......
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Sector8....
18 days work per month? Errr no. We are PAID for our days off as well, just as 9 to 5 workers are PAID for Weekends, even though they have those days off.
Industrial action is still a RIGHT in the UK. There are a number of hoops to jump through first, ballots, notice to management etc, but the RIGHT to strike or take industrial action remains.
Would any strike action last a long time? Dunno. But as I've said before ONE shift (oe even part of one) per person at each NATS ACC would cause at least 25 DAYS disruption, and that's no including the Airfields.
Cost to the individual? Not a lot. Cost to the airlines...? Go figure, but remember it would be A whole lot more than just settling the pay claim.
Rgds BEX
18 days work per month? Errr no. We are PAID for our days off as well, just as 9 to 5 workers are PAID for Weekends, even though they have those days off.
Industrial action is still a RIGHT in the UK. There are a number of hoops to jump through first, ballots, notice to management etc, but the RIGHT to strike or take industrial action remains.
Would any strike action last a long time? Dunno. But as I've said before ONE shift (oe even part of one) per person at each NATS ACC would cause at least 25 DAYS disruption, and that's no including the Airfields.
Cost to the individual? Not a lot. Cost to the airlines...? Go figure, but remember it would be A whole lot more than just settling the pay claim.
Rgds BEX
Join Date: May 2002
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As a lowly engineer its a scary thought that this wonderful union we all now have would be split 2 or 3 ways - if they can't get what we want together what chance have they got with their collective "power" split into thirds? I personally think we need to all stand shoulder to shoulder now, especially as we are entering into the world of commercial pressures and the massive reductions in the numbers of staff.
I'm saying this cos as engineers we need the support of ATCOs and ATSAs to get the job done, not just to get pay rises. Imagine the problems and animosity that would unfortunatly result if all three said groups were in a different union, or had seperate negoitiations. We all need to stand together, stand tall, and most of all not relent.
I'm saying this cos as engineers we need the support of ATCOs and ATSAs to get the job done, not just to get pay rises. Imagine the problems and animosity that would unfortunatly result if all three said groups were in a different union, or had seperate negoitiations. We all need to stand together, stand tall, and most of all not relent.
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Bex
Most of your points accepted but when losing pay for industrial action, they don't count the days off. I have been on strike and my memory (admittedly a bit jaded these days) is losing effectively 1/18th or 1/19th of my monthly gross.
Most of your points accepted but when losing pay for industrial action, they don't count the days off. I have been on strike and my memory (admittedly a bit jaded these days) is losing effectively 1/18th or 1/19th of my monthly gross.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Perhaps the pressure should be re-directed ? Like it or not, neither this "socialist" (if I could find more sarcastic quotation marks I'd use them) government or the AG have any responsibility or desire to fund anything relating to NATS. The AG "bought" (yes - those again) NATS but only NATS is liable for the debt and the wage bill... So, as ever, it's all down to the banks.
To digress slightly it's very much like the plight of ITV Digital... Carlton/Granada own it and reap any profits, but when it comes to stumping up to cover losses and protect the customer... no chance!!
If you're really looking for a hefty increase in salaries then maybe the first step should be to fight for re-nationalisation.. ? Then at least you can argue that those holding the purse actually have the ability to find the money from somewhere... as poor old, hands-tied, lame duck NATS do not!!
I hope the magic money tree is in season...
To digress slightly it's very much like the plight of ITV Digital... Carlton/Granada own it and reap any profits, but when it comes to stumping up to cover losses and protect the customer... no chance!!
If you're really looking for a hefty increase in salaries then maybe the first step should be to fight for re-nationalisation.. ? Then at least you can argue that those holding the purse actually have the ability to find the money from somewhere... as poor old, hands-tied, lame duck NATS do not!!
I hope the magic money tree is in season...
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No idea what happened to any posts made. Usually it's because the poster deleted them themselves.
Though as with any computer system, occasionally there are hiccups and things can get lost.
Nothing has been deleted by any PPRuNe admins.
Though as with any computer system, occasionally there are hiccups and things can get lost.
Nothing has been deleted by any PPRuNe admins.
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Just to clear up a little confusion for some people which may explain missing posts in some cases.
Whenever anyone votes on a poll, this will show in the Forum as a post having been made at the time the vote is cast. Of course, since no text is typed, there will be no words which appear and thus some might assume something is missing.
This is just the way the software works and is nothing sinister.
Whenever anyone votes on a poll, this will show in the Forum as a post having been made at the time the vote is cast. Of course, since no text is typed, there will be no words which appear and thus some might assume something is missing.
This is just the way the software works and is nothing sinister.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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I've tried to resist but I just can't...................
What amazing timing on the part of the esteemed ATCOs!
For bloody years we have crap pay rises and other shxx and do nothing!!!
Now we have 9/11, airlines struggling with many staff laid off, NATS income down 17%, (whether you like it or not, it is true!) and NOW of all time you finally choose to make a stand over a few % on an anual pay rise - while most people in aviation are not getting any rise, mainly a cut!
You lot really take the biscuit! Caramba
What amazing timing on the part of the esteemed ATCOs!
For bloody years we have crap pay rises and other shxx and do nothing!!!
Now we have 9/11, airlines struggling with many staff laid off, NATS income down 17%, (whether you like it or not, it is true!) and NOW of all time you finally choose to make a stand over a few % on an anual pay rise - while most people in aviation are not getting any rise, mainly a cut!
You lot really take the biscuit! Caramba
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9/11 was last year. The pay rise is for this year.
Airlines struggling? Some are, some aren't... no change there then.
NATS income down 17%? Depends how you juggle the figures. Worst case this is true. However according to NATS Chief Exec, NATS has no problem raising capital. What better thing to invest in than your most prized asset, your workforce.
BEX
Airlines struggling? Some are, some aren't... no change there then.
NATS income down 17%? Depends how you juggle the figures. Worst case this is true. However according to NATS Chief Exec, NATS has no problem raising capital. What better thing to invest in than your most prized asset, your workforce.
BEX
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Sector8dear, the whole '9/11' thing has had me humming and hawing about this issue as well.
But during the golden years of the '90s when traffic made an almost obligatory annual increase of 7% our pay didn't increase correspondingly, so if our pay isn't related to success, why should it be related to 'mis-fortune'?
But during the golden years of the '90s when traffic made an almost obligatory annual increase of 7% our pay didn't increase correspondingly, so if our pay isn't related to success, why should it be related to 'mis-fortune'?
Last edited by Lieutenant Dan; 10th Aug 2002 at 02:34.