View Poll Results: My reaction to the NATS pay proposal is:
Great !! Well done to NATS for finding money for a small, responsible award.
6
2.55%
Times are hard, so this is the best we could have hoped for.
21
8.94%
I'm not happy, but we must push for a better award next year.
16
6.81%
I'm totally opposed to this so-called rise. Given a vote, I'd favour industrial action.
192
81.70%
Voters: 235. This poll is closed
NATS pay offer
Join Date: May 2001
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tug 3,
I had assumed that the offer implied RPI + 1% (based on Nov 2002 rate to ensure that we are given pay rise on time in Jan'03) or 3.7% whichever is the higher. If it is not clear about this then something needs to be done to ensure that the formal offer, if accepted, is black and white. I wonder whether it has lost a few words here and there in the relaying of information from OKS, and in fact it does mean as I summise?
If underlying rate of inflation is, for example, 5% in Nov '02, then the deal would be 6% for 2003, rather than 3.7%. I hope.
Still leaves the fact that should inflation be that high, then the 1% offered above it will merely pay your Income Tax (sorry, there I go again, I mean National Insurance) increase. So - again no pay rise - merely inflation keeping.
Ok - no-one can blame NATS for Brown's red box announcements and the company themselves also have to pay an extra 1% per staff member - so that won't help any drive towards a better deal. Then again, the staff can hardly be blamed for the rise either, and one might argue that we shouldn't have to "pay" for it from the pay offer. i.e. when the offer was made there was no proof of what might be announced in the Budget, and now what may have seemed a reasonable deal looks worse than was supposed.
Who knows?
Nice sunny afternoon 'though! 
I had assumed that the offer implied RPI + 1% (based on Nov 2002 rate to ensure that we are given pay rise on time in Jan'03) or 3.7% whichever is the higher. If it is not clear about this then something needs to be done to ensure that the formal offer, if accepted, is black and white. I wonder whether it has lost a few words here and there in the relaying of information from OKS, and in fact it does mean as I summise?
If underlying rate of inflation is, for example, 5% in Nov '02, then the deal would be 6% for 2003, rather than 3.7%. I hope.
Still leaves the fact that should inflation be that high, then the 1% offered above it will merely pay your Income Tax (sorry, there I go again, I mean National Insurance) increase. So - again no pay rise - merely inflation keeping.
Ok - no-one can blame NATS for Brown's red box announcements and the company themselves also have to pay an extra 1% per staff member - so that won't help any drive towards a better deal. Then again, the staff can hardly be blamed for the rise either, and one might argue that we shouldn't have to "pay" for it from the pay offer. i.e. when the offer was made there was no proof of what might be announced in the Budget, and now what may have seemed a reasonable deal looks worse than was supposed.
Who knows?
Nice sunny afternoon 'though!
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Cheers for the reply - makes more sense to me now, if still as unpalatable as before.
So, basically, average inflation pay increase year 1 then average inflation plus 1% increase year 2, and as you rightly say, include NI contribution increase of 1% and you are a percentage below inflation year 1 and only match inflation year 2, so overall the pay deal doesn't keep up with inflation when the NI contribution increase is taken into account.
And we are expected to vote yes to what I hear others refer to as a pay-cut in real terms?
Is anyone in any public/private sector industry in the same boat? I'd like to hear if they have accepted such an offer.
T3
Cheers for the reply - makes more sense to me now, if still as unpalatable as before.
So, basically, average inflation pay increase year 1 then average inflation plus 1% increase year 2, and as you rightly say, include NI contribution increase of 1% and you are a percentage below inflation year 1 and only match inflation year 2, so overall the pay deal doesn't keep up with inflation when the NI contribution increase is taken into account.
And we are expected to vote yes to what I hear others refer to as a pay-cut in real terms?
Is anyone in any public/private sector industry in the same boat? I'd like to hear if they have accepted such an offer.
T3
Last edited by tug3; 25th Apr 2002 at 06:57.
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Perhaps Prospect could invest a small proportion of our subs in photocopying this thread and mailing it to every single ATC manager within NATS.
Now THAT'S what I'd call representation of our views
How about it Prospect ???????
160
Now THAT'S what I'd call representation of our views
How about it Prospect ???????
160
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Good to see such strong support for industrial action. Lets face it peps enough is enough.
Fact Number One
We work harder year on year, but our pay rises have never given us more than a cost of living rise.
Fact Number Two
The argument that there is no money in the kitty does not hold. The government is still a major shareholder. If they can find cash to fund Railtrack (and it's shareholders), then they can find the cash for deserved pay rises.
Fact Number Three
There will always be excuses not to give staff pay rises. If we do not stand up and make ourselves heard now, then what chance will we ever have in the future. We are a Sleeping Giant in the company, now is the time to waken.
Thats my opinion and I am sticking to it
Fact Number One
We work harder year on year, but our pay rises have never given us more than a cost of living rise.
Fact Number Two
The argument that there is no money in the kitty does not hold. The government is still a major shareholder. If they can find cash to fund Railtrack (and it's shareholders), then they can find the cash for deserved pay rises.
Fact Number Three
There will always be excuses not to give staff pay rises. If we do not stand up and make ourselves heard now, then what chance will we ever have in the future. We are a Sleeping Giant in the company, now is the time to waken.
Thats my opinion and I am sticking to it
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Everything I said in the Pay Deal post still stands
"What's the difference between Prospect and a chocolate teapot?
You could eat the teapot.
My powder is dry, and has been for ages. I have a match, and the time has come to put the two together. We've been saying "Let's just accept this one, because we can't be arsed with the hassle, we'll kick up a stink next year" the time has come to stand up for what we know and believe to be true. Anyway 18 months valid on T&D, with another 8 to go before the proper payscale, it's the only payrise I'm going to get.
Have a think about Industrial Action, figures used are, I believe representative, but have been plucked oout of the air (I'm on leave, and haven't got the access to the actual numbers)
Earning 30K ish, that's just over £60 a day after tax. A 2% payrise equates to about £400 a year after tax. Let's say we successfully campaign for a 5% payrise. This will bring about £1000 a year after tax. That's 9 or 10 days industrial action paid for.
BUT
The gains made are not just for this year, they're for the rest of your life, increased earnings and pension payments from the moment you put your foot down. With 30 years service ahead of you that £600 extra actually becomes nearer to £20 to 25 THOUSAND pounds, with pension on top.
Makes you think
Tell your friends
And your managers (After all, this applies to them too, unless they've negotiated an individual contract)"
Need I say more?
"What's the difference between Prospect and a chocolate teapot?
You could eat the teapot.
My powder is dry, and has been for ages. I have a match, and the time has come to put the two together. We've been saying "Let's just accept this one, because we can't be arsed with the hassle, we'll kick up a stink next year" the time has come to stand up for what we know and believe to be true. Anyway 18 months valid on T&D, with another 8 to go before the proper payscale, it's the only payrise I'm going to get.
Have a think about Industrial Action, figures used are, I believe representative, but have been plucked oout of the air (I'm on leave, and haven't got the access to the actual numbers)
Earning 30K ish, that's just over £60 a day after tax. A 2% payrise equates to about £400 a year after tax. Let's say we successfully campaign for a 5% payrise. This will bring about £1000 a year after tax. That's 9 or 10 days industrial action paid for.
BUT
The gains made are not just for this year, they're for the rest of your life, increased earnings and pension payments from the moment you put your foot down. With 30 years service ahead of you that £600 extra actually becomes nearer to £20 to 25 THOUSAND pounds, with pension on top.
Makes you think
Tell your friends
And your managers (After all, this applies to them too, unless they've negotiated an individual contract)"
Need I say more?
Join Date: Apr 2002
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NATS pay offer
I hear everything ATC is saying about the pay offer. As an engineer I wonder if I would be better off finding a job elsewhere. My freinds in commercial industry are far better rewarded for their efforts than I am, I am stuck at the top of my band, with no engineering vacancies in sight, suffering an effective pay reduction every year. Don't let's forget that it was engineering effort as well as ATC effort that got the new centre on it's way.
It's time for a decent pay offer to say thanks for all the time and effort (and sacrifices) that NATS employees have made in the last few years.
It's time for a decent pay offer to say thanks for all the time and effort (and sacrifices) that NATS employees have made in the last few years.
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NATS pay offer
That is just my point, a spine point would be nice..... but if you are at the top of your band and their are no more spine points to collect and no vacancies to move to......
Join Date: Feb 2002
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steady on,
if Propsect (and its reps) did as you all ask they couldn't get pissed at conference, fight our corner re nerc screens and they couldn't then further their own careers now could they??
I'm glad my "powder" kept dry aren't you?!
if Propsect (and its reps) did as you all ask they couldn't get pissed at conference, fight our corner re nerc screens and they couldn't then further their own careers now could they??
I'm glad my "powder" kept dry aren't you?!
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Join Date: Mar 2000
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C'mon guys, let's not be hard on those diligent hardworking Prospect reps; just a look at when the ATCO's branch website was last updated will show you how seriously they regard feedback, communication, and YOU, their customers.
http://www.atcos.co.uk
Get your finger out of your A$$ Prospect and do your duty.
http://www.atcos.co.uk
Get your finger out of your A$$ Prospect and do your duty.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Hmmmmmm, you only pay 10 pounds a month for representation? That is very cheap indeed... We pay 1.5% of our base pay (bottom of the scale) a month... For me, that comes out to about $114 a month... I also contribute to our political action commitee...
regards
regards
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warped factor , i think what 1261 means is -what a waste of money even £10 a month is. IF the union deserved more i think most would pay it- i think even i could negotiate better t&c's than they manage
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The problem is that the union - in my opinion - is trying to negotiate for far too diverse a group of people. Collectively PCS and Prospect seem to cover just about everyone who works for NATS; frankly I feel that the "coalface" ATCOs' interests are diverging from others in the company. I'm sure that our senior reps and negotiators do an excellent job, but not (in general) of respresenting my views. Try to represent everyone, end up representing no-one.
If our "consultation" meeting today was anything to go by (as an example) it doesn't really matter whether the ATCOs vote for or against the pay deal. We'd be outvoted by the rest of the company, many of whom seem to be thankful to have a job at all in the current climate (and I'm not having a go at them, that's their lookout).
Could I do things better? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that I have to be jumping around for joy about the situation.
If our "consultation" meeting today was anything to go by (as an example) it doesn't really matter whether the ATCOs vote for or against the pay deal. We'd be outvoted by the rest of the company, many of whom seem to be thankful to have a job at all in the current climate (and I'm not having a go at them, that's their lookout).
Could I do things better? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that I have to be jumping around for joy about the situation.
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1261
Of course you don't have to be jumping around for joy.
But our management must be laughing all the way to the next pay meeting when they see comments about leaving the union etc.
United we can try and make some sort of stand, divided........
WF.
Could I do things better? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that I have to be jumping around for joy about the situation.
But our management must be laughing all the way to the next pay meeting when they see comments about leaving the union etc.
United we can try and make some sort of stand, divided........
WF.
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Some musings on a theme...
I suspect that if Prospect, on behalf of the ATCOs were to break the tie/bond between PCS and themselves, then far greater (relative to 2.2%) things might be achieved in the near future, albeit not this year. Yes, this would probably mean less money for PCS and Prospect engineers, but then will ATCOs think of that? Perhaps one day it served to all negotiate the same rise, but not anymore. This pay offer smacks of something that NATS can possibly ill afford, and which is probably there to try and placate the ATCOs, not necessarily the other 4000 or so staff... (controversial!)
Whilst we're about it I don't agree with 1261 when he/she says that the rest of the company could outvote the ATCOs for if Prospect were not to recommend the pay deal to their ATCO members, officially the offer is withdrawn by management to the all staff irrespective of the outcome of voting.
The more astute of readers will notice that I have refrained from putting any personal spin on this - after all everything here is what everyone is talking about. And for those of you that were allegedly told that TC were remarkably happy with the offer, and all was sunny in WDrayton, well, if I was you i'd take that with a cellar of salt! Again, not expressing my own views as such, just what one hears all day long...
Oh well, having lit the blue touch paper, time to sit back and relax...!
Regards to one and all.
I suspect that if Prospect, on behalf of the ATCOs were to break the tie/bond between PCS and themselves, then far greater (relative to 2.2%) things might be achieved in the near future, albeit not this year. Yes, this would probably mean less money for PCS and Prospect engineers, but then will ATCOs think of that? Perhaps one day it served to all negotiate the same rise, but not anymore. This pay offer smacks of something that NATS can possibly ill afford, and which is probably there to try and placate the ATCOs, not necessarily the other 4000 or so staff... (controversial!)
Whilst we're about it I don't agree with 1261 when he/she says that the rest of the company could outvote the ATCOs for if Prospect were not to recommend the pay deal to their ATCO members, officially the offer is withdrawn by management to the all staff irrespective of the outcome of voting.
The more astute of readers will notice that I have refrained from putting any personal spin on this - after all everything here is what everyone is talking about. And for those of you that were allegedly told that TC were remarkably happy with the offer, and all was sunny in WDrayton, well, if I was you i'd take that with a cellar of salt! Again, not expressing my own views as such, just what one hears all day long...
Oh well, having lit the blue touch paper, time to sit back and relax...!
Regards to one and all.