Two NERCs?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two NERCs?
Dear All (and before I start, apologies to non-NERC people but you might be interested in this... if not, well accept my apologies and click on another topic>..)
Where was I?...
Ah yes... NERC / LACC/ Swanwick Centre has been operational for a while now. I might be alone, but am I begining to see more than a little resentment from the "office" staff towards us "operational" staff?
It appears to me that "They" had the run of the place for six years or so before the pesky ATCOs and ATSA's turned up and started to ruin their cosy little world. Indeed, using the place for what was actually designed for, an ACC, was NOT on their agenda at all.
Now forgive me if I've got this wrong, but aren't they the Support Staff? Isn't the prime function of NERC "Operational ATC", and aren't they supposed to be supporting us in providing that service? From what i've seen they spend lots of time supporting each other, but little time supporting us.
One more thing. Look at the NERC Car Park. Any weekend or Public Holiday will do. It's about one fifth full. All the operational Staff (ATSAs, ATCOs and OE staff) are "in". NERC functions as it should. Come a weekday however and that same car park is FULL. Question: what do all those extra people all DO, exactly? Not all strictly REQUIRED for the operation of NERC, otherwise they'd be around at the weekend n'est pas?
Perhaps I am wrong. Have others felt animosity from the "office" staff? Are there "TWO NERCs"? One for the operational staff, and another run purely for the benefit of "office workers"?
Comments?
Rgds BEX
Where was I?...
Ah yes... NERC / LACC/ Swanwick Centre has been operational for a while now. I might be alone, but am I begining to see more than a little resentment from the "office" staff towards us "operational" staff?
It appears to me that "They" had the run of the place for six years or so before the pesky ATCOs and ATSA's turned up and started to ruin their cosy little world. Indeed, using the place for what was actually designed for, an ACC, was NOT on their agenda at all.
Now forgive me if I've got this wrong, but aren't they the Support Staff? Isn't the prime function of NERC "Operational ATC", and aren't they supposed to be supporting us in providing that service? From what i've seen they spend lots of time supporting each other, but little time supporting us.
One more thing. Look at the NERC Car Park. Any weekend or Public Holiday will do. It's about one fifth full. All the operational Staff (ATSAs, ATCOs and OE staff) are "in". NERC functions as it should. Come a weekday however and that same car park is FULL. Question: what do all those extra people all DO, exactly? Not all strictly REQUIRED for the operation of NERC, otherwise they'd be around at the weekend n'est pas?
Perhaps I am wrong. Have others felt animosity from the "office" staff? Are there "TWO NERCs"? One for the operational staff, and another run purely for the benefit of "office workers"?
Comments?
Rgds BEX
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A quick P.S.
I'm sure that the majority of the "support Staff" above are jolly decent people, it just seems that they're not fully aware of exactly what NERC is actually FOR.
Rgds BEX
I'm sure that the majority of the "support Staff" above are jolly decent people, it just seems that they're not fully aware of exactly what NERC is actually FOR.
Rgds BEX
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Asgard
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It was exactly the same at W Drayton wasn`t it? However, I`m puzzled at the disciminatory behaviour towards operational staff, who are, after all, the revenue generators.
A prime example of this is the failure to open the coffee lounge at weekends.
A prime example of this is the failure to open the coffee lounge at weekends.
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bex.......... This is exactly the sort of crap you should be posting on the NATS forum, isn't that what it's there for?
I know that you state at the start that the content is of interest mostly to NATS bods, but you usually have reasonably interesting things to say - this wasn't one of them, and you've wasted 30 seconds of my time.
The bill is in the post.
I know that you state at the start that the content is of interest mostly to NATS bods, but you usually have reasonably interesting things to say - this wasn't one of them, and you've wasted 30 seconds of my time.
The bill is in the post.
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
niknak
Now, if you briefed yourself properly before coming on duty here on the Forum, you would know that the NATS Forum is currently u/s until Danny has sorted out how we are going to work out access privileges.
Anyone seen the Forum LCE anywhere ??
Bex.......... This is exactly the sort of crap you should be posting on the NATS forum, isn't that what it's there for?
Anyone seen the Forum LCE anywhere ??
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: a fence in the sun
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite right, Scott!
niknak, who gave you the right to control who posts where? You sound like a management lapdog.
Bex, keep it coming.
HF experts will agree that, for example, 'discriminating against' operational staff by making some facilities unavailable at weekends will drive morale down. Really, these matters should have been sorted out in the design and definition phase. It cost enough didn't it?
niknak, who gave you the right to control who posts where? You sound like a management lapdog.
Bex, keep it coming.
HF experts will agree that, for example, 'discriminating against' operational staff by making some facilities unavailable at weekends will drive morale down. Really, these matters should have been sorted out in the design and definition phase. It cost enough didn't it?
Guest
Posts: n/a
To be honest, if I was working in operational support I would probably feel a little antagonstic towards you now. In just one post you've mangaged to tar all support staff with the same brush and put yourself on a pedestal because you are operational. We are actually all in this together and if you're not sure exactly what all the support staff do, perhaps the onus is on you to find out before you put their jobs down. I can think of numerous support postions that are vital to operational staff but do not need to work at weekends, ATCI for instance.
I would agree with the previous message, you've posted some good messages before but this one is divisive and probaly an opinion that would have been best kept to yourself.
I would agree with the previous message, you've posted some good messages before but this one is divisive and probaly an opinion that would have been best kept to yourself.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: my house
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here here Bex, couldn't agree more.
The LTCC car park is behaving in the same strange manner as its shiny new cousin down south. Can't be too long before we are turned into the evil minority to be looked down upon by the hordes flooding in here monday to friday.
Up the operational staff revolution !
The LTCC car park is behaving in the same strange manner as its shiny new cousin down south. Can't be too long before we are turned into the evil minority to be looked down upon by the hordes flooding in here monday to friday.
Up the operational staff revolution !
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The intention is not to put myself, or any of my colleagues, on a pedestal. Nor is it to "put down" the support staff. Providing a service to the ATC staff does not mean being subserviant.
The PRIMARY function of NERC is as an ATCC that operates 24/7. Providing that service is a team effort. We are all members of that team, right from the cleaners thru Group4 "Security " to the operational controllers. We all have our roles to play in providing that service .
The role of the support staff is just that, to support the operational staff. I am not denigrating that task. It is essential. My point is that it is not always being done well. There is a suspicion that the "office staff" have lost touch with the reality of being part of the ATCC team and what that means.
There are of course always individuals that go out of their way to help.
To use current "management speak", as a controller my customers are the aircraft that I direct around the sky, safely, orderly and efficiently. If I fail in my task my "customers" would be very quick to complain and I would do something about it.
Operational staff are customers of the support services. Are we getting the best possible support?
BEX
The PRIMARY function of NERC is as an ATCC that operates 24/7. Providing that service is a team effort. We are all members of that team, right from the cleaners thru Group4 "Security
" to the operational controllers. We all have our roles to play in providing that service .The role of the support staff is just that, to support the operational staff. I am not denigrating that task. It is essential. My point is that it is not always being done well. There is a suspicion that the "office staff" have lost touch with the reality of being part of the ATCC team and what that means.
There are of course always individuals that go out of their way to help.
To use current "management speak", as a controller my customers are the aircraft that I direct around the sky, safely, orderly and efficiently. If I fail in my task my "customers" would be very quick to complain and I would do something about it.
Operational staff are customers of the support services. Are we getting the best possible support?
BEX
Typical ATCO viewpoint!!! You obviously do not understand the much-publicised "two centre strategy". Surely you are not still of the opinion that a "New Scottish Centre" will ever be built.
No, the real "two centre strategy" is being trialled now at Swanwick. The support staff are carrying out a serious exercise in determining just how separate they can become, work which would normally have been carried out at the ATMDC (at far greater cost).
Have you not noticed that each vital management function is being carried out by two members of the SMG group? Already stage one of the evaluation is nearly complete, and we are about to enter phase two. This will entail a second ORO being created, initially to shadow the current ORO, but ultimately to provide the vital redundancy to ensure that inaccurate watch rosters can continue to be produced in the event of a catastrophe involving the current ORO.
In the longer term look for a second smoking hut, Securicor to provide a second tier of security and an additional tranche of support personnel to ensure that no real decisions can ever be reached.
Only then will Swanwick be ready to receive the refugees from Manchester, Scottish and LATCC, whilst Stephen Byers and the NERC Board continue to laud the "two centre strategy" currently being successfully implemented.
No, the real "two centre strategy" is being trialled now at Swanwick. The support staff are carrying out a serious exercise in determining just how separate they can become, work which would normally have been carried out at the ATMDC (at far greater cost).
Have you not noticed that each vital management function is being carried out by two members of the SMG group? Already stage one of the evaluation is nearly complete, and we are about to enter phase two. This will entail a second ORO being created, initially to shadow the current ORO, but ultimately to provide the vital redundancy to ensure that inaccurate watch rosters can continue to be produced in the event of a catastrophe involving the current ORO.
In the longer term look for a second smoking hut, Securicor to provide a second tier of security and an additional tranche of support personnel to ensure that no real decisions can ever be reached.
Only then will Swanwick be ready to receive the refugees from Manchester, Scottish and LATCC, whilst Stephen Byers and the NERC Board continue to laud the "two centre strategy" currently being successfully implemented.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you Numpo. Obviously as a mere ATCO I would not have the mental capacity for understanding the essential management structure and decision making/enhancing processes.
I shall retire to my simple and meaningless task as a radar controller.
BEX
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Swanwick
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Animosity from the office staff? Damn' right! You guys eat all our food, take the best parking places, ...
Er, sorry -- joke.
This post worries me because of who wrote it. There are many pointless ranters here but, BEXIL160, you are not among them. So I pay attention to what you say.
Besides that, after many years of fielding big systems like NERC I know that your basic premise is true: the needs of the operational users have to come first.
But you'll have to be a bit more specific: What are you missing on those Saturday afternoons?
I've seen a few (remarkably few!) technical problems discussed here: fonts, voice quality, NAS. You may feel that these aren't being adequately addressed (I know that's true in the case of NAS), and I probably agree with you.
But the consensus of posters here seems to blame that on the organisational decision-making process (or the lack of money, which may stem from the same cause). I would argue that you won't get any better decisions on Saturday.
The rank-and-file support staff know you guys are out there. How can *we* help?
Er, sorry -- joke.
This post worries me because of who wrote it. There are many pointless ranters here but, BEXIL160, you are not among them. So I pay attention to what you say.
Besides that, after many years of fielding big systems like NERC I know that your basic premise is true: the needs of the operational users have to come first.
But you'll have to be a bit more specific: What are you missing on those Saturday afternoons?
I've seen a few (remarkably few!) technical problems discussed here: fonts, voice quality, NAS. You may feel that these aren't being adequately addressed (I know that's true in the case of NAS), and I probably agree with you.
But the consensus of posters here seems to blame that on the organisational decision-making process (or the lack of money, which may stem from the same cause). I would argue that you won't get any better decisions on Saturday.
The rank-and-file support staff know you guys are out there. How can *we* help?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dinosaur.
Thank you for your reasoned input.
Essentially I made two points.
One: I don't think that the "office staff" truly have any concept of what happens at an ACC, or what the operational staff actually do. By "office staff" I do not mean the engineers who happen to work in offices, who may well be ham strung by NATS process or lack of money. We do get support from those "in the know" as far as possible.
My comments are directed towards those paper shufflers (and others) who could be working for ANY large company. NERC is a very pleasant environment for them. It becomes less so "after hours" or at weekends. Any query about the way they do things or the lack of availablity of services, is met with "Oh, you must be a controller/assistant/engineer". The implication being that you are just an awkward sod and "why don't you just bog off back to LATCC and leave us in peace". At least that's the way it seems, and I am not the only one to have run up against this attitude.
Two: I, like others, am amazed at the number of staff that materialise on a Monday. It is possible of course that they are all required, but I have my doubts. Re-inforced BTW by what I have learned here and elsewhere about NATS processes. Is it just possible that "modern business methods", as taught in MBAs etc really don't work well for NATS and just increase the management burden? Or, applying MBA sense, what do THESE people ADD to the business? Is a bigger cull in order?
Back to point one:I repeat, I am making personal attacks on no one. It concerns me that the office culture at Swanwick is not helping the operational staff as much as it might. Others seem to agree.
BEX
Thank you for your reasoned input.
Essentially I made two points.
One: I don't think that the "office staff" truly have any concept of what happens at an ACC, or what the operational staff actually do. By "office staff" I do not mean the engineers who happen to work in offices, who may well be ham strung by NATS process or lack of money. We do get support from those "in the know" as far as possible.
My comments are directed towards those paper shufflers (and others) who could be working for ANY large company. NERC is a very pleasant environment for them. It becomes less so "after hours" or at weekends. Any query about the way they do things or the lack of availablity of services, is met with "Oh, you must be a controller/assistant/engineer". The implication being that you are just an awkward sod and "why don't you just bog off back to LATCC and leave us in peace". At least that's the way it seems, and I am not the only one to have run up against this attitude.
Two: I, like others, am amazed at the number of staff that materialise on a Monday. It is possible of course that they are all required, but I have my doubts. Re-inforced BTW by what I have learned here and elsewhere about NATS processes. Is it just possible that "modern business methods", as taught in MBAs etc really don't work well for NATS and just increase the management burden? Or, applying MBA sense, what do THESE people ADD to the business? Is a bigger cull in order?
Back to point one:I repeat, I am making personal attacks on no one. It concerns me that the office culture at Swanwick is not helping the operational staff as much as it might. Others seem to agree.
BEX
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: my house
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dinosaur,
Maybe you think that my previous post was a "pointless rant".
I would say that there is a lot of respect from atco's towards support staff, you may not believe that but that's up to you. We know that there is an enormous effort to provide the infrastructure that makes our job possible.
What you could do is stop to think what fuels comments like this. The average TC/AC atco does not feel valued in the slightest by our esteemed organisation whose reputation is based upon the performance and reputation of its operational staff. Despite providing an excellent service in the most complex and congested airspace in the world, thankyou to all the pilots who tell us that when the opportunity arises, we do not seem to be ANYWHERE near the focus of the company.
Atco's provide the 'air traffic service ' in National Air Traffic Services, that seems to be a little respected thought
Maybe you think that my previous post was a "pointless rant".
I would say that there is a lot of respect from atco's towards support staff, you may not believe that but that's up to you. We know that there is an enormous effort to provide the infrastructure that makes our job possible.
What you could do is stop to think what fuels comments like this. The average TC/AC atco does not feel valued in the slightest by our esteemed organisation whose reputation is based upon the performance and reputation of its operational staff. Despite providing an excellent service in the most complex and congested airspace in the world, thankyou to all the pilots who tell us that when the opportunity arises, we do not seem to be ANYWHERE near the focus of the company.
Atco's provide the 'air traffic service ' in National Air Traffic Services, that seems to be a little respected thought
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: my house
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bex
Love your point 2.
Having had a working life outside of NATS it is plainly evident to me , and those of that same experience that, air traffic is not a business/operation/service that can exist as 'any other business'.
Despite any protest to the contrary it seems that it will not be too long before the perceived antagonism between operational staff and others may become a big problem. My completely personal , operational, view is that the apparent attitude from the carpark space fillers at Swanwick is very short sighted.
Love your point 2.
Having had a working life outside of NATS it is plainly evident to me , and those of that same experience that, air traffic is not a business/operation/service that can exist as 'any other business'.
Despite any protest to the contrary it seems that it will not be too long before the perceived antagonism between operational staff and others may become a big problem. My completely personal , operational, view is that the apparent attitude from the carpark space fillers at Swanwick is very short sighted.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Swanwick
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Foo--
I found it incredibly difficult not to respond "If the Foo sh*ts, wear it", but...
No, I absolutely do NOT think this thread is a rant. I hope I made that clear in my first post. I'll say it again: In a big real-world system like NERC, the needs of the operational users MUST take priority.
I (and many others on my side of the car park) see the same problems you guys describe, and are just as frustrated by them. We are on your side.
The good news is that you guys are in a strong position. Keep banging the table, and eventually things will improve.
I found it incredibly difficult not to respond "If the Foo sh*ts, wear it", but...
No, I absolutely do NOT think this thread is a rant. I hope I made that clear in my first post. I'll say it again: In a big real-world system like NERC, the needs of the operational users MUST take priority.
I (and many others on my side of the car park) see the same problems you guys describe, and are just as frustrated by them. We are on your side.
The good news is that you guys are in a strong position. Keep banging the table, and eventually things will improve.