"No-fly zones" in the EGLL RMA ?
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"No-fly zones" in the EGLL RMA ?
BAA announced last week that NATS had begun, a couple of weeks previously, trialling a scheme of "no-fly zones" in the RMA. These apparently cover parts of north and south London, and follow a weekly rotation, the intention being to distribute EGLL landing traffic on westerlies over different boroughs on different dates.
It was made clear that this wasn't a reference to runway alternation, but to the routes that aircraft take under radar vectoring between the end of the STAR and becoming established on the 27L/27R ILS.
I'm having difficulty getting my head around this concept and, frankly, I'd have thought that controllers had more than enough to do already without worrying that they had sent an aircraft over, say, Haringey instead of Hackney or vice versa.
Can anyone in the know explain how this scheme works, please ?
It was made clear that this wasn't a reference to runway alternation, but to the routes that aircraft take under radar vectoring between the end of the STAR and becoming established on the 27L/27R ILS.
I'm having difficulty getting my head around this concept and, frankly, I'd have thought that controllers had more than enough to do already without worrying that they had sent an aircraft over, say, Haringey instead of Hackney or vice versa.
Can anyone in the know explain how this scheme works, please ?
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End of the STAR? If you fly in the UK you will be on a heading before even joining the STAR.
Looking at today's arrival tracks and ILS joins, it's hard to discern a pattern that suggests avoiding areas that would normally be overflown.
Anyone able to comment on what has changed recently ?
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I think what you are referring to, is an attempt to keep the noise away from certain areas of London on westerlies and again certain areas west of Heathrow on easterlies at night between 0400 and 0600, on a weekly basis.
This method uses the skills of Heathrow Approach Controllers for the benefit of some Londoners and some people living west of Heathrow under the approach paths.
Boxes ared used on the radar, as no fly zones during the times above, but do not affect normal operations from 0600.
This method uses the skills of Heathrow Approach Controllers for the benefit of some Londoners and some people living west of Heathrow under the approach paths.
Boxes ared used on the radar, as no fly zones during the times above, but do not affect normal operations from 0600.
Last edited by Over+Out; 28th Nov 2012 at 16:36.
Thread Starter
I think what you are referring to, is an attempt to keep the noise away from certain areas of London at night between 0400 and 0600, on a weekly basis.
This method uses the skills of Heathrow Approach Controllers for the benefit of Londoners.
This method uses the skills of Heathrow Approach Controllers for the benefit of Londoners.
Do you know how many zones are involved, and how many weeks the cycle takes before repeating ?
Given that it offers benefits to the communities under the flightpaths, as you rightly say, I'm surprised the scheme isn't being more widely publicised.
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How does this interface with the '3Di Metric' and the plan to reduce CO2 for individual flights?
Is it O.K to melt the polar caps and flood The Underground so those in Hampstead and Stoke Newington can have a good nights kip?
Is it O.K to melt the polar caps and flood The Underground so those in Hampstead and Stoke Newington can have a good nights kip?
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How does this interface with the '3Di Metric' and the plan to reduce CO2 for individual flights?
Which begs the question of how the 3Di score is actually calculated for that segment of the flight. Anybody know ?
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I dont know exactly how the 3di is calculated, but I do know that it is a fairly good idea badly presented or implemented. The leaflets that were published at the time had several obvious numerical errors in it, which makes me suspicious that those behind it actually know what they are talking about! Similar to when there was the claim of saving 10% CO2 on flights, by saving 2.5% in each of taxi/climb/cruise/approach....
Zooker - I agree entirely, but the secondary benefit of flooded undergrounds might be more people taking flights...?!!
Zooker - I agree entirely, but the secondary benefit of flooded undergrounds might be more people taking flights...?!!
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There is a reference to the trials on Zac Goldsmith's page reporting his public meeting on Heathrow
News
and a note of a forthcoming meeting
‘No Fly’ area proposal over London City Airport flightpath - News - Newham Recorder
News
and a note of a forthcoming meeting
‘No Fly’ area proposal over London City Airport flightpath - News - Newham Recorder
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Zooker - I agree entirely, but the secondary benefit of flooded undergrounds might be more people taking flights...?!!
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Not just Newham, but Tower Hamlets too, according to the article. Rumours that the Olympic SAM batteries are to be reinstated are apparently unfounded ...
Joking aside, it sounds as if the zones have not yet been implemented, although post #4 would suggest that controllers can see them on their screens in anticipation.
The report also implies that there are two groups of no-fly zones, to be activated on alternate weeks.
Joking aside, it sounds as if the zones have not yet been implemented, although post #4 would suggest that controllers can see them on their screens in anticipation.
The report also implies that there are two groups of no-fly zones, to be activated on alternate weeks.
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Last edited by Gonzo; 4th Dec 2012 at 09:08.
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<<At the moment - amazingly - there is no defined path on the approach across London with residents not knowing exactly the noise they will get.>>
Amazingly! Where do they get these people?
Amazingly! Where do they get these people?
Thread Starter
<<At the moment - amazingly - there is no defined path on the approach across London with residents not knowing exactly the noise they will get.>>
Amazingly! Where do they get these people?
Amazingly! Where do they get these people?
Having said that, there does appear to be a fairly common misconception among the general public that arrival routes are defined in the same way as departure ones.
While BAA have a good series of factsheets on their website explaining how things work, they are quite hard to find. By contrast, their page on "Arrival procedures" talks about CDAs and joining points, but makes no reference at all to the routes taken between the hold and the ILS.
Heathrow Noise: Arrival procedures
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Heathrow sets flightpaths for early morning planes - Transport - News - London Evening Standard
For each of the runway directions there are two pairs of zones, each one 5nm x 1nm, aligned E-W and offset to the N and S of the localiser.
The inner zones start at 15nm from the threshold and extend to 10 DME; the outer zones are from 20 to 15 DME.
Traffic joining the ILS is not permitted to fly through these zones, with the inners and outers active on alternate weeks.
No details yet on how compliance is being monitored (presumably via ANOMS) or whether performance stats will be published.
Thread Starter
Can you explain what 'anoms' is?
ANOMS - Airport Noise & Operations Monitoring System - Brüel & Kjær
