Greek Air traffic controllers on strike
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It's so easy to make comments when you are far away and don't have to deal with the situation that we deal with every single day... Strike means strike and not shutting down altogether or going back to nature my dear Pprune friend! At least this is the only thing that we can still do, struggling to survive and just hope for a miracle...
Nevertheless there is no need for ironic comments, i guess almost everybody knows how bad the situation has been the last two years! And i really hope that you will never have to go through such a crisis, but even if you did, be sure that you wouldn't receive sarcastic comments on top of that, at least from the Greeks!
Before we post something we'd better think twice...
Have a nice day or Kalimera (as the ATC controllers would greet you)!
Nevertheless there is no need for ironic comments, i guess almost everybody knows how bad the situation has been the last two years! And i really hope that you will never have to go through such a crisis, but even if you did, be sure that you wouldn't receive sarcastic comments on top of that, at least from the Greeks!
Before we post something we'd better think twice...
Have a nice day or Kalimera (as the ATC controllers would greet you)!
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<<unicom on 123.45 and lets sort ourselves out!>>
And the next thread down, at the moment, tells of an aircraft landing on a taxiway!!!!
And the next thread down, at the moment, tells of an aircraft landing on a taxiway!!!!
A) No ATC in Greece is just as good as the one they have right now?
B) ATC is needed to sort things out, leaving elegantly aside the fact that even ATC did not prevent the Thomsen aircraft to land on a Taxiway?
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TO: 'His dudeness'
Hey Dude!!!
If you 'dude' are a pilot, its perfectly clear why the Thomson landed on a taxiway. Papsos is 200nm away from the closest Greek airport, and twice that from Athens.
If you don't know which country you land at, ATC wont do much to direct you to the runway.
Let us know which airline you fly so that we don't SLF on that.
With the friendliest regards,
An SLF that will have his post 'moderated'
If you 'dude' are a pilot, its perfectly clear why the Thomson landed on a taxiway. Papsos is 200nm away from the closest Greek airport, and twice that from Athens.
If you don't know which country you land at, ATC wont do much to direct you to the runway.
Let us know which airline you fly so that we don't SLF on that.
With the friendliest regards,
An SLF that will have his post 'moderated'
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The International Federation of Air Traffic Controllers Associations (IFATCA), through its Greek member association GATCA, understands that the Greek government intends to further cut the employment terms and conditions of Greek Air Traffic Controllers (ATCOs) as it continues to battle with the Greek economic crisis. Greek ATCOs have already suffered substantial cuts in their salaries, and are now under threat of being reclassified as administrative workers.
Air Traffic Control is not an administrative function. It is a highly specialised and demanding profession requiring unique skills. This has been recognised by the International Labour Organisation (ILO), an agency of the United Nations. Whilst sympathetic to the plight of the Greek economy, IFATCA cannot condone the arbitrary reduction in conditions of employment for such a specialised task with such significant safety implications IFATCA further understands that there is very little investment in ATC training, infrastructure and safety related matters in Greece.
IFATCA believes this can only lead to a reduction in safety for the travelling public in Greece, and will erode international public confidence in aviation safety in Greece, a nation that depends upon tourism.
In the interests of safety, professional ATC standards must be maintained in Greece. Air Traffic Controllers must be able to work free from the stress induced by uncertain employment conditions.
IFATCA calls on the Greek Government to reconsider any proposals to further reduce the employment conditions of Greek Air Traffic Controllers, and further calls for adequate investment in ATC training and infrastructure in order to meet national and international obligations.
IFATCA stands ready to assist the Greek government in understanding the unique demands of the profession and is willing to participate in meaningful dialogue about the future of Air Traffic Control in Greece.
Source: IFATCA
Air Traffic Control is not an administrative function. It is a highly specialised and demanding profession requiring unique skills. This has been recognised by the International Labour Organisation (ILO), an agency of the United Nations. Whilst sympathetic to the plight of the Greek economy, IFATCA cannot condone the arbitrary reduction in conditions of employment for such a specialised task with such significant safety implications IFATCA further understands that there is very little investment in ATC training, infrastructure and safety related matters in Greece.
IFATCA believes this can only lead to a reduction in safety for the travelling public in Greece, and will erode international public confidence in aviation safety in Greece, a nation that depends upon tourism.
In the interests of safety, professional ATC standards must be maintained in Greece. Air Traffic Controllers must be able to work free from the stress induced by uncertain employment conditions.
IFATCA calls on the Greek Government to reconsider any proposals to further reduce the employment conditions of Greek Air Traffic Controllers, and further calls for adequate investment in ATC training and infrastructure in order to meet national and international obligations.
IFATCA stands ready to assist the Greek government in understanding the unique demands of the profession and is willing to participate in meaningful dialogue about the future of Air Traffic Control in Greece.
Source: IFATCA
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To be fair, the BBC in a more detailed report on their website says that Greek Air Traffic Controllers planned only a 3 or 4 hour walkout today, to show support for the general protest against austerity measures demanded by financial institutions affected if Greece were to go bankrupt and drop out of the Euro. I have a hard time working up any sympathy for French Bankers.
Also on the Beeb website is a photo of a large sign that proclaims "Greek Airspace is Not for Sale!" Is it possible that privatisation has been suggested for Greek ATC?
Also on the Beeb website is a photo of a large sign that proclaims "Greek Airspace is Not for Sale!" Is it possible that privatisation has been suggested for Greek ATC?
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T & C's?
How well-paid are Greek ATCO's? And how good are their pensions and job security? (Compared to the average British charter chump driving through their airspace and trying to understand them). I reckon they do rather well, and this is a small part of the Greek disaster caused by massive pensions for civil servants, and retirement at 50 on such pensions. I may of course be completely wrong.
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..along with the rest of the country..
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What happens to transiting upper airway traffic in this situation?
Do they have to avoid Greek airspace?
I was in Greece recently and Eurocontrol simply issue a slot so you cannot do the flight to/from Greece. But what about overflights?
Do they have to avoid Greek airspace?
I was in Greece recently and Eurocontrol simply issue a slot so you cannot do the flight to/from Greece. But what about overflights?
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A1862/11 notamn
q) lggg/qxxxx/iv/nbo/w /000/999/
a) lggg b) 1110182101 c) 1110190900
e)due to industrial action of air traffic control personnel,
participating in general strike of the supreme administration
of greek civil servants trade unions (adedy), flights
destined/departing to/from greek airports will be affected.
The following flights will be served only:
1.all acft overflying athinai fir/hellas uir.
2.vip flights (heads of states-prime ministers).
3.all state operational acft participating in scheduled
exercises.
4.flights in unusual or emergency situations.
5.hospital flights
6.humanitarian flights.
7.search and rescue flights.
Mr Bloggs : Right on target...
q) lggg/qxxxx/iv/nbo/w /000/999/
a) lggg b) 1110182101 c) 1110190900
e)due to industrial action of air traffic control personnel,
participating in general strike of the supreme administration
of greek civil servants trade unions (adedy), flights
destined/departing to/from greek airports will be affected.
The following flights will be served only:
1.all acft overflying athinai fir/hellas uir.
2.vip flights (heads of states-prime ministers).
3.all state operational acft participating in scheduled
exercises.
4.flights in unusual or emergency situations.
5.hospital flights
6.humanitarian flights.
7.search and rescue flights.
Mr Bloggs : Right on target...
Last edited by kpnagidi; 20th Oct 2011 at 20:16.
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Just want to clarify a few things you are not to blame for not knowing.
Area control in Greece is radar controlled. As of approach, radar guidance exists for Athina, Thessaloniki, Iraklion, Kerkyra and Rodos. Only. All the rest is procedural.
Are the controllers to blame there's no radar? Do you know of any blind who does not wish to see? But then where has all that money Eurocontrol been sending gone?
Greek goverments through history could explain I'm sure.
Can you blame the controllers for resisting the scheduled theft of their portion of Eurocontrol money? I can blame them for having overdone it with other schemes over the past years but not for this.
Not to mention a part of military controllers, obliged by greek law to obtain the same training and certification as their civilian collegues and serve civilian traffic but receive nothing else
but their military pay check, having no compensation for serving Eurocontrol flights (e.g. Andravida and Chania)
How many of you are still out there that even know the minima for procedural control? I will highlight only this: Seperation between flight in holding and other flight on course is obtained after five (5) minutes.
FIVE minutes!!!
Do the math and turn this into miles...
Dear "whyisitsohard", you're holding over AKETO or any other holding for a reason. You just can't accept the same load when you're working with pen and paper.
And dear Capetonian, chaos occurs when you end up with accidents not delays. When was the last one you can recall with controllers to blame in Greece?
I won't even get into a discussion about the financial measures in Greece. None of you could understand.
As not all Germans were nazi, not all Greeks were/ are lazy or cheaters or whatever tag you want to put.
Thank you.
Area control in Greece is radar controlled. As of approach, radar guidance exists for Athina, Thessaloniki, Iraklion, Kerkyra and Rodos. Only. All the rest is procedural.
Are the controllers to blame there's no radar? Do you know of any blind who does not wish to see? But then where has all that money Eurocontrol been sending gone?
Greek goverments through history could explain I'm sure.
Can you blame the controllers for resisting the scheduled theft of their portion of Eurocontrol money? I can blame them for having overdone it with other schemes over the past years but not for this.
Not to mention a part of military controllers, obliged by greek law to obtain the same training and certification as their civilian collegues and serve civilian traffic but receive nothing else
but their military pay check, having no compensation for serving Eurocontrol flights (e.g. Andravida and Chania)
How many of you are still out there that even know the minima for procedural control? I will highlight only this: Seperation between flight in holding and other flight on course is obtained after five (5) minutes.
FIVE minutes!!!
Do the math and turn this into miles...Dear "whyisitsohard", you're holding over AKETO or any other holding for a reason. You just can't accept the same load when you're working with pen and paper.
And dear Capetonian, chaos occurs when you end up with accidents not delays. When was the last one you can recall with controllers to blame in Greece?
I won't even get into a discussion about the financial measures in Greece. None of you could understand.
As not all Germans were nazi, not all Greeks were/ are lazy or cheaters or whatever tag you want to put.
Thank you.
Last edited by kpnagidi; 23rd Oct 2011 at 20:27.
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Just addressing the holding statement. After 26 years using procedural seperation, domestic and oceanic, I can yes. We use 20 miles from protected holding airpace. seeing most of our holding, blocks aircraft in airspace below 10,000 feet from climbing, 250 knots equals approx 5 min. An aircraft doing 120 knots equals 10 minutes. Wish we could have used 5 min on everyone.
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How well-paid are Greek ATCO's?
-Salary for Qualified ATCO 500 Euros
-Christmas bonus ,twice per year 500 euros each( twice ,because some celebrates Christmas on 25th dec, some on the 7th January)
-Holiday leave payment , 500 euros once per year
-for arriving on time most of the shifts, 500 euros /montly
- for each hour on frequency next 5 euros , normaly 100 hours per month, further 500 euros
- winter holiday leave ,500 euros once per year,
-supplement for license hoilders,( medical , practical and oral tests) 500 euros
- instructor for table tennis , 500 euros,
-any children younger than 40, reduces taxes by at least 25% up to maximum 100% VAT reduction...
-right to employ a few your cousins, it is not possible to measure it in money terms....
- 10% allowances for night shifts,
-10% allowances for working during holiday season,
-transportation costs,
- allowances for working out of your home, only in cases if airport or ACC is located more than 2 NM from 500 montly
-recreational leave,500 eurs once per year
-if company results are within aims, almost always are, 13 th and 14th salary is the norm....
At the top of everything, bear in mind that there is also, OJTIs and bosses as well. They are threated ,separately.
I saidf "it might be" , we all know it is not like this. Actually ,it is not like this ,yet.
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-for arriving on time most of the shifts, 500 euros /montly
-Salary for Qualified ATCO 500 Euros