EGTK Radar?
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EGTK Radar?
Does anyone know when Oxford are due to install radar?
I have a source on the inside that says they're banking on having it in by the 2012 Olympics. Any ideas?
It seems strange to me, personally, that it's taken them so long to get it.
I have a source on the inside that says they're banking on having it in by the 2012 Olympics. Any ideas?
It seems strange to me, personally, that it's taken them so long to get it.
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Another tid-bit of info... NATS have stepped up to the plate as engineers.
Interesting that Oxford have decided to go that route, I would've thought they'd rather go independent installation.
Won't going with NATS mean they'll have to use NATS for their radar courses?
Interesting that Oxford have decided to go that route, I would've thought they'd rather go independent installation.
Won't going with NATS mean they'll have to use NATS for their radar courses?
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Won't going with NATS mean they'll have to use NATS for their radar courses?
They have done the same sort of thing at non NATS airfields like Belfast City and Ronaldsway.
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Another tid-bit of info... NATS have stepped up to the plate as engineers.
Interesting that Oxford have decided to go that route, I would've thought they'd rather go independent installation.
Won't going with NATS mean they'll have to use NATS for their radar courses?
Interesting that Oxford have decided to go that route, I would've thought they'd rather go independent installation.
Won't going with NATS mean they'll have to use NATS for their radar courses?
Oxford Airport Management have no operational experience of installing and opertaing any radar systems and they are sensible enough to recognise this.
They have two options:
1. Have their own radar system installed. Due to the complexity of the local airspace this would almost certainly have to include the provision of SSR. Then they'd have to employ radar rated ATCOs (around 8 of them to cover the current airport hours at abround £55 to £60k per annum each in that area).They'd also have to employ the appropriately qualified engineers.
Instillation would cost in the region of £1m plus around £40k a year for SSR.
There would also be ongoing parts costs, none of which are cheap.
If they employ their own radar rated ATCOs they can send them where they want for training.
2. Contract it all out to NATS for them to provide a centralised approach from Swanwick. For one fixed cost per year, you get all of the above which would almost certainly cost less than a "greenfield installation" and the ongoing costs.
Additionally, they will in the future, only have to employ Tower rated atcos at the airport as NATS will always provide radar and approach rated ATCOs to provide an approach service from Swanwick.
You've got to remember that Oxford never has had radar before so, although in my opinion they don't have the commercial income to justify the cost of either option and never will, if they want it, option two is the sensible choice.
If the Airport owners are looking for a comparison, they should look at Inverness.
They were persuaded to employ a non NATS provider for the instillation and launch of their own radar. The provider was perfectly candid about costs and ongoing expenditure but HIAL still went with it as opposed to centralising the APS function and now they are paying very heavily for it.
Still, that's HIAL for you, twas ever thus I suppose.
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I heard they're hoping to keep all their current ATC staff and just employ greenfielders to cover the installation and operation whilst the current ATCOs are on radar course. Don't see how they can justify this, personally, as some of their ATCOs aren't up to the job!
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eastern, thank-you.
In fact, thinking of future LTMA development, 'MORSE' and 'LEWIS' would be splendid holding patterns for said airfield.
A class above ARTHA DALEY!
In fact, thinking of future LTMA development, 'MORSE' and 'LEWIS' would be splendid holding patterns for said airfield.
A class above ARTHA DALEY!
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<<Don't see how they can justify this, personally, as some of their ATCOs aren't up to the job!>>
That's a pretty outrageous statement from someone who reveals nothing in his profile. I wonder what grounds he/she has for saying that?
That's a pretty outrageous statement from someone who reveals nothing in his profile. I wonder what grounds he/she has for saying that?
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Then they'd have to employ radar rated ATCOs (around 8 of them to cover the current airport hours at abround £55 to £60k per annum
<<Don't see how they can justify this, personally, as some of their ATCOs aren't up to the job!>>
That's a pretty outrageous statement from someone who reveals nothing in his profile. I wonder what grounds he/she has for saying that?
12th Dec 2010 22:23
That's a pretty outrageous statement from someone who reveals nothing in his profile. I wonder what grounds he/she has for saying that?
12th Dec 2010 22:23
) and Brize no longer providing a service outside LARS hours, yeah we are all trainee Jedi Nights cause the Force is strong...it has to be!A considerable amount has been invested in the airport these past 3 years, we've been patient and it's now our turn. NATS have taken over as provider of maintenance and the Voice Coms Upgrade project that should have started in August is delayed until this Feb. Personally I'll be pleased to get rid of those poxy Airlite headsets - I was wearing those when I started controlling 25 years ago.
Onwards and upwards.... Hey - but at least we got a free uniform!!!
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Airlite headsets
Are a hell of a lot more reliable than the ones that replaced them. Many NATS people would prefer to revert back to the old headsets...
NikNak - Oxford have aspirations for a huge increase in traffic - possibly using the Olympics as a springboard. If they get their way (bearing in mind they do not have the same Local Council restraints that have hampered Farnborough), then they will have the income...
You've got to remember that Oxford never has had radar before so, although in my opinion they don't have the commercial income to justify the cost of either option and never will...
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Hi Fred... I sympathise with you. At least you have a slightly better tower than when I was there in 70ish!! It was damnably busy in those days but there were no based jets then - just lots of Navajos and six million Cherokees. There was usually one fully-licenced ATCO on duty then with his headset on running a busy procedural approach whilst legally responsible for Student Controllers on Ground and Air!! Great fun...
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I have to say I'm inclined to agree with Delta.
Not only have a few of Oxford's ATCO's (on more than one occasion) shown a lack of confidence, ability and professionalism, but their ATCA's don't seem to be faring too well either.
Quite a number of my questions put forward to the ATCA's have been met by an "Errm..." or a "Hold on, I'll just ask someone who knows".
To me this is rather diappointing to see. I like to know that the employees of an airfield I am using are competent as it makes for much safer co-ordination!
Maybe management should be thinking of new staff to go along with that new radar?
Not only have a few of Oxford's ATCO's (on more than one occasion) shown a lack of confidence, ability and professionalism, but their ATCA's don't seem to be faring too well either.
Quite a number of my questions put forward to the ATCA's have been met by an "Errm..." or a "Hold on, I'll just ask someone who knows".
To me this is rather diappointing to see. I like to know that the employees of an airfield I am using are competent as it makes for much safer co-ordination!
Maybe management should be thinking of new staff to go along with that new radar?
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Totty or should i call you by your other name Delta, they must have really upset you for you to go to such lengths. The correct answer from an ATCA that does not know the answer to a question is "i'll just ask someone who knows". or would you like them to have a guess at information such the status of danger area's.etc.
Last edited by trafficnotsighted; 13th Dec 2010 at 17:20.
The radar will be a mixed blessing. The local ATC guys could be the best candidates as they know what is going on in the local area. Im not sure how a NATS safety case would stack up with 2 gliding clubs within 5 nm and all the traffic that is forced to squeeze between Birmingham and Brize and of course between Brize and Weston. This is the busiest VFR play ground in the UK and the VFR traffic wont go away because it cant, there is no where else to go. I simply dont think the NATS lawers would alow them to bid for this contract and if they did the Oxford arrivals or departures would have to wait till dark 'o'clock to get a big enough gap in the sky to deconflict the flight. If all the VFR traffic within 10 nm were to call the friequency would be saturated. Imagine all 50 competitors from Bicester calling one after the other for 60 min...... Bicester is less than 5nm form the C/L of the ILS and most competitors would be up wind, given a westery they would be about 3nm, well then there is Weston at 3nm from theC/L,,, Gliding alone can generate over 400 movements per day within 10nm, how would NATS lawers feel about that?
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Seems to me the ATCA was behaving correctly. When I was trained as a controller I was told that if I did not know the answer to a question I must know where to find the answer. As an experienced controller at Heathrow I sometimes had to ask a pilot to standby while I found the answer. Heck, you can't expect a fairly junior member of staff to be the local Wikipedia!!
Bad bear... have you ever listened to Farnborough Radar on a busy summer weekend? And what, pray, is a "lawer"??
Bad bear... have you ever listened to Farnborough Radar on a busy summer weekend? And what, pray, is a "lawer"??