Easterlies at EGLL today
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Hi All
We at Manch have had a rwy inspection procedure whereby the airport authority decreed that they inspected at specfic times, against the flow uninterrupted,therefore no departures and a arrival gap of 20 miles result queues at the hold and acft into the stacks
Due to pressure from their customers they have now decided to inspect with the flow ,still uninterrupted but the inbound gap is reduced
We at Manch have had a rwy inspection procedure whereby the airport authority decreed that they inspected at specfic times, against the flow uninterrupted,therefore no departures and a arrival gap of 20 miles result queues at the hold and acft into the stacks
Due to pressure from their customers they have now decided to inspect with the flow ,still uninterrupted but the inbound gap is reduced
Join Date: Nov 2006
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I thought the driving force behind the sterile runway for inspections came from within the LHR ATC safety/management empire, not HAL.
Not really any safer either, as we now have to accommodate driver training on an on-off basis in gaps, as we did with the old style inspections, except now this is done by trainee drivers or drivers who are used to a sterile runway, and ATCOs who are used to a sterile runway, so surely the risk has increased?
Experienced ATCOs and experienced drivers was unsafe, and yet potentially inexperienced drivers and rusty ATCOs (especially as we will soon start to validate some who started training after the change to sterile runways) is fine!!!!!!!!!!!
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I stand corrected. Whoever came up with it wants shooting though. Utter bollocks.
It pisses off the crews, approach and of course us. Although the inspection usually only takes 3 or 4 minutes (with 2 vehicles) it seems like an age and you can't use any part of the runway, even for crossing whilst its going on.
I guess that the idea is to remove a possible cause of "runway safety events". Unfortunately we've still managed to have the best part of 30 runway incursions this year!
It pisses off the crews, approach and of course us. Although the inspection usually only takes 3 or 4 minutes (with 2 vehicles) it seems like an age and you can't use any part of the runway, even for crossing whilst its going on.
I guess that the idea is to remove a possible cause of "runway safety events". Unfortunately we've still managed to have the best part of 30 runway incursions this year!
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<<Unfortunately we've still managed to have the best part of 30 runway incursions this year!>>
Now that really makes me curious. Why do they happen? Is ATC not vigilant enough? In the 20+ years I worked Heathrow Tower I can only recall one or two. I accept that there may have been more, but not in the numbers mentioned.
Now that really makes me curious. Why do they happen? Is ATC not vigilant enough? In the 20+ years I worked Heathrow Tower I can only recall one or two. I accept that there may have been more, but not in the numbers mentioned.
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HD, the definition of a runway incursion has changed considerably over the years. If an aircraft noses over the bar it's now an incursion, if an aircraft lands without a clearance but it's safe to do so it's an incursion, if an aircraft lands with a clearance but the ATCO doesn't get a readback it's an incursion.
Not helping with flight crew relations, runway incursion is quite an emotive term.
Not helping with flight crew relations, runway incursion is quite an emotive term.
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if an aircraft lands with a clearance but the ATCO doesn't get a readback it's an incursion.
A Runway Incursion is any occurrence at an airport involving the unauthorised or unplanned presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for aircraft landings and departures.
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Andy Mayes, your definition is incorrect...
...which is subtly different.
Runway Incursion: any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take-off of aircraft.
Join Date: Dec 2009
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HD - It sounds like the folk who are more interested in creating paperwork than solving problems found a new toy to play with.
I am/was all for safety, but this does not sound like common sense to me.
I am/was all for safety, but this does not sound like common sense to me.
Hi
Having had the scenic tour of N London, Herts bucks and almost Oxfordshire yesterday coming into LHRas PAx I was very interested to read this explanation of why the delays occured.
It seems to me that LHR operates on two levels , operational people who run the airport: atcos, pilots, ground ops drivers and the airline ops folks and then in another group the HAL managers who think they run the airport but actually get in the way of the running of the airport .
This sadly is very common across the UK at the moment with a whole mangement class obsessed with processes and best practice because they cannot understand how something works in practice because they have no actual experience of it.
Much as I moan about the inadequacies of LHR I have the greatest respect for all of you who make it work at all given its inadequate size, lack of proper investment and seemingly stupid corporate management. I am afraid you are not alone with this situation and it maybe part of the reason why we are not the country we once were.
Rant over and thanks again to the powers that be at PP and the contributors who let interested users like me have glimpse of how you fols keep it all running
Having had the scenic tour of N London, Herts bucks and almost Oxfordshire yesterday coming into LHRas PAx I was very interested to read this explanation of why the delays occured.
It seems to me that LHR operates on two levels , operational people who run the airport: atcos, pilots, ground ops drivers and the airline ops folks and then in another group the HAL managers who think they run the airport but actually get in the way of the running of the airport .
This sadly is very common across the UK at the moment with a whole mangement class obsessed with processes and best practice because they cannot understand how something works in practice because they have no actual experience of it.
Much as I moan about the inadequacies of LHR I have the greatest respect for all of you who make it work at all given its inadequate size, lack of proper investment and seemingly stupid corporate management. I am afraid you are not alone with this situation and it maybe part of the reason why we are not the country we once were.
Rant over and thanks again to the powers that be at PP and the contributors who let interested users like me have glimpse of how you fols keep it all running
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PB... You'd be utterly amazed at the way "the powers" run Heathrow. I can't speak for the present, although I suspect it is as bad. Some examples:
1. Gulfstream approaching 10L during a quiet period, nothing in front of him and lots of miles behind. BAA rang to say he did not have a "slot" to land and had to divert somewhere. We passed the message and the flight diverted to Farnborough.
2. HS-125 started up for an international flight, again at a quiet time. BAA rang to say he could not depart until XXXX (if I recall, about half an hour hence) because that was the start of his "slot" time. We pointed out that he was number one for take-off with no ATC delay and would cause no delay to anyone else. They were adamant and instructed us to tell the pilot that if he went he would never fly into Heathrow again. He went.... saying he had no intention of ever returning.
3. Concorde coming back very late one night after some tech delay had to land by 11pm (night "curfew"). We put it on the ILS for 10L many miles out and urged the crew to keep their speed up, which they gladly did. It reached 4 miles from touchdown at 22.59 and would have landed a few seconds after 11pm. BAA said he couldn't land and after a truly deafening go-around, which must have woken everyone for miles around, it diverted to Brize Norton.
Your opinion of these incredible decisions is..........
1. Gulfstream approaching 10L during a quiet period, nothing in front of him and lots of miles behind. BAA rang to say he did not have a "slot" to land and had to divert somewhere. We passed the message and the flight diverted to Farnborough.
2. HS-125 started up for an international flight, again at a quiet time. BAA rang to say he could not depart until XXXX (if I recall, about half an hour hence) because that was the start of his "slot" time. We pointed out that he was number one for take-off with no ATC delay and would cause no delay to anyone else. They were adamant and instructed us to tell the pilot that if he went he would never fly into Heathrow again. He went.... saying he had no intention of ever returning.
3. Concorde coming back very late one night after some tech delay had to land by 11pm (night "curfew"). We put it on the ILS for 10L many miles out and urged the crew to keep their speed up, which they gladly did. It reached 4 miles from touchdown at 22.59 and would have landed a few seconds after 11pm. BAA said he couldn't land and after a truly deafening go-around, which must have woken everyone for miles around, it diverted to Brize Norton.
Your opinion of these incredible decisions is..........
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4. Night curfew again. The last BA 747 busts his chops to get airborne before the deadline, we do everything we can, he gets to the Holding Point literally a few seconds after, BAA ring and tell us he can't depart. To be fair, the ODM was a little embarrassed to have to be making the call, but where was the common sense? Deplane, find hotels, all the associated grief, it must have cost much more than the fine would have been....
Put it in context - IIRC the Lufty 737 cargo flights were allowed to carry on regardless....
CAA = Campaign Against Aviation. BAA = B*gg*ring All Aircraft. (Allegedly). I wonder what FAA stands for?
Put it in context - IIRC the Lufty 737 cargo flights were allowed to carry on regardless....
CAA = Campaign Against Aviation. BAA = B*gg*ring All Aircraft. (Allegedly). I wonder what FAA stands for?
Join Date: Nov 2008
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Real lack of understanding of the night noise restrictions at LHR shown on this thread.
The limits on movements and QC are set by Govt. The airport has to adhere to them and if it does not there are consequences.
Have a look at page 4, point 2(b). Anyone fancy 10% less night movements next season?
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...2010_06_en.pdf
The limits on movements and QC are set by Govt. The airport has to adhere to them and if it does not there are consequences.
Have a look at page 4, point 2(b). Anyone fancy 10% less night movements next season?
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...2010_06_en.pdf
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Norman D:
I rather think that, given HD and myself accumulated twice as many years just at LL as you have existed totally on this planet, we had a reasonable grasp of the situation wrt night noise regs.
Busting a night noise limit by 20 minutes, yeah, not on, but by a few seconds only? Gimme a break.......
I rather think that, given HD and myself accumulated twice as many years just at LL as you have existed totally on this planet, we had a reasonable grasp of the situation wrt night noise regs.
Busting a night noise limit by 20 minutes, yeah, not on, but by a few seconds only? Gimme a break.......
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Norman. Those of us who worked at Heathrow certainly understand the noise restrictions. However, the first two examples quoted in my post above happened in broad daylight!
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Minesthechevy, be it seconds or minutes, it's still into the quota. Where do you want to draw the line, 5 secs, 20 secs, 45 secs? The Govt say the time is 23:30:00L end of.
My age, and your experience has bugger all to do with it I'm afraid.
HD. I wasn't referring to your first two examples.
My age, and your experience has bugger all to do with it I'm afraid.
HD. I wasn't referring to your first two examples.
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Norman - there's no need for naughty words. Your profile reveals nothing except your tender years. Minesthechevy and I are fully aware of the rules and regs. Our whole working life was controlled by them. It would help the discussion enormously if you revealed your professional interest/qualifications..
For 99% of the time there were no night-time problems. On the evening the Concorde would have landed just seconds late, there was no other traffic so it wasn't as if a stream was trying to beat the curfew. And remember that under certain circumstances the curfew can be broken. One might have hoped that those running the airport would have had some sort of emergency contact with DTI to obtain approval in the exceptional circumstances. But, no, toe the line whatever carnage is caused. What an extraordinary way to run an airport.
For 99% of the time there were no night-time problems. On the evening the Concorde would have landed just seconds late, there was no other traffic so it wasn't as if a stream was trying to beat the curfew. And remember that under certain circumstances the curfew can be broken. One might have hoped that those running the airport would have had some sort of emergency contact with DTI to obtain approval in the exceptional circumstances. But, no, toe the line whatever carnage is caused. What an extraordinary way to run an airport.
