Easterlies at EGLL today
 

Hi,

Just curious; we just given the longest final onto 09L I can remember for some time this pm. There was also some interesting approach routeing going on (crossing over the localiser etc) and some orbits being given etc.

Unless I'm being dense (highly likely) the cause wasn't obvious and so am simply curious as to what causes patterns like this? traffic volume? weather? r/w obstruction?

Cheers

O2D

Westcott Snatches ... ?


JD
:)

Too many off the stacks, a missed approach, weather, disruption/blocked runway, infringer, other priority traffic inbound (PAN etc) and so on. Highly unlikely to be caused by a snatch as they only really happen when the traffic is quite quiet.

The reasons for a longer than usual final or crossing over to the other side are many and varied. Could be any of the above or something else. Not unusual but not ideal either.

In theory you shouldn't go further west than where the north/south base of the TMA steps up from 3,500ft to 4,500ft (about 8nm E of CPT) as that's the western extent of Heathrow's airspace on easterlies, but that does get stretched on occasion!

<<In theory you shouldn't go further west than where the north/south base of the TMA steps up from 3,500ft to 4,500ft >>

Except if your name is Mike Romeo!!

Thank you; all of those explanations make sense. We didn't make it as far west as the ever patient Mike Romeo crew.

However, if I recall correctly (again unlikely) we were vectored on at about 24d having just left FL70 for 6000'. A first!

OLNEY 2D... If you were established around 16:20 local today I can give you an answer why you were vectored so far West. There are relatively new procedures for runway inspections at Heathrow. It is intended that one large gap is provided so that 2 vehicles can inspect the runway thoroughly without having to vacate the runway. This is usually around 15nm. Today the gap required was 22nm due to only one vehicle being available. (Bit of a disgrace if you ask me). This is hard to judge at the best of times, especially on Easterlies as you are so far from the stacks. We were also having to provide wider spacing due to the work in progress affecting the turn off for 09L.

Ok enough of the excuses! We misjudged it and had too many off the stacks. I must admit I was in the mind set that it was to be a normal 15nm gap, I realised pretty late on that 22nm was required.:mad:!!. Being in the middle of a dose of Malaria tablets that are not agreeing with my bouls this was not ideal! At this point the EGLL airshow began. I think 26miles was about as bad as it got for you guys but a quick exit to the toilet soon after revealed I had suffered far more than you.
Hope you enjoyed the tour.

Is Lariam still a no-no for controllers in the UK? I took it way back in '94 I think and had no ill effects but there were reports of "mental issues" attributed to its use a couple of years later.

Which idiot thought that one up then? Isn't runway capacity one of the most limited resources in this sceptred isle? Surely runway inspections can be carried out quite safely arround traffic without any reduction in capacity.

Camel, I should keep quiet about that and don't do it again. I don't think the ANO differentiates between what you did and the more obvious avoid substances which could lead you to jail. Generally if the drugs could affect your performance you shouldn't offer your services at work - even if we are all too short-staffed to work without you.

Okay, I stand corrected: -

So apparently its okay once you are qualified and I've been tea-total at work for no reason for all these years:}

I'm wondering what malaria tablets and pétanque have got to do with each other?

Dan... Rest assured I had a full consultation with the medical team about which anti Malarial medication to take with regard to work duties before I took them. I was advised Malarone was safe to take. There are many others that are prohibited mainly due to the reason that they may cause hallucinations.

I'm staggered, reading these posts, not least about the loony runway inspection procedure.

I have to say I'm a bit concerned with what appears to be a vain attempt to fit what appears to be a very big square object into a tight round hole.

Arrived last night at about 19.00z with 15-20 min delays. Fine can understand that the traffic is busy at that time of day; but why on earth is there only the ONE vehicle to do runway inspections when two are required to the job in the gap required ? There is no slack in the arrival rate at these peak times to cater for this sort of inefficiency. I'd hazard due to lack of manpower - not a dig at the ops guys but you can't be two places at once and it seems there is a thin coverage at best of times.

In amongst this we have WIP at exits where most of the short-haul traffic needs to vacate in order to keep the arrival rate high. Even some of the heavy traffic vacate at the wip exits if they are light, so why not co-ordinate a bit more traffic onto 09R ? Do atc still have restrictions on operating deps from 09L and arrivals onto 09R - I seem to remember reading something recently that suggested this ought to be possible in the near future ?

The potential for go-arounds must surely increase with the demands of keeping the arrival rate high, the constraint of sticking in a massive gap for one poor ops inspection vehicle and traffic maintaining a high speed 100knt taxi in order to vacate asap after the wip.

It just seems a bit over-ambitious.

Jenson

What happened to inspections on an on-off basis? A single vehicle goes on and inspects a section between landers and the spacing stays the same... I can't believe the new procedure is anything to do with ATC.

I'm with HD on this one. Can we have the official explanation for the change in proceedure? Surely not 'elfnsafety again?

HD, I know that the runway inspections always used to be opposite direction, full lights on, it only took a couple of seconds for the vehicle to clear the runway - in fact you could see the wheels turning as soon as you started to say 'Checker, clear the runway.......' (well wouldn't you be a bit smartish if some bloke was throwing 100 tonnes of metal at you at 125 mph?:hmm:)

One time, there was a 27R inspection going on with a Brymon -7 coming in. Checker told not to go east of block 15, Brymon told not to go west of block 16. Job done, box ticked, and as far as I am aware, no trousers soiled. I forget the name of the controller involved, conveniently...... but I bet it wouldn't be even thought of nowaadays......

You're right M!! The guys (and that delighful lady whose name escapes me) driving Checker had nerves of steel. There was a suggestion at one time that the roof of Checker should be equipped with PAPIs so they could stay on!!!

Yes, I remember the lady in question - she once cornered a runaway illegal in the 27R hold using only a Sherpa van.

No-one knew at the time if he was aarmed or what...

She said she'd have caught him quicker if she'd had a 4WD - and soon after, AOSU got spanky shiny new Discos....

They probably use Pajeros now yech spit or some other wannabe offroader:=

That's a fine idea but what do you suppose we should do with all the departures?
For a lot of the afternoon yesterday there was 10-20 minutes outbound delay despite which we were taking landers on the right.
If there were more then the outbound delay would build to the point where there are no stands for the inbounds to park on.

There are rules regarding when we can land on the departure runway on westerlies which relate to the amount of inbound delay. There are no such restrictions on easterlies except the common sense restrictions imposed by the balancing act.

Its all about balance. The WIP is a royal pain in the arse but it needs doing and its unfortunate that it has a far greater affect on easterlies.

We had 3.5nm spacing which was working ok but when the spacing delivered isn't the advertised product then there are no get outs. There were a few missed approaches yesterday caused by a combination of optimistic spacing and crews not flying the assigned speed.


As for the runway inspection regime we don't think much of it either but it's their airport to run as they wish. Complaints in writing to HAL.......

VtI,

I thought the driving force behind the sterile runway for inspections came from within the LHR ATC safety/management empire, not HAL.

Can you clarify or expand?