French strike - routing options ?
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French strike - routing options ?
Apologies for posting in the 'lions den' - being a mere passenger, but I would be grateful for any assistance with a quick question. I'm flying from AGP to BRS on Thurs and wondered about the routing. If the French strike goes ahead as expected, how would that likely affect flights from Southern Spain to the UK ? How far out into the Bay of Biscay does French authority extend ? What I'm trying to work out is whether it's likely an AGP-BRS flight could/would be diverted to skirt round the French sectors or if I should pack a large flask and some sarnies for an extended holiday in Malaga's departure lounge 
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French ATC industrial action has been going on for the last 10 days or so. It seems some sectors are worse than others, but the big national strike on the 23rd will cause some headaches. The airlines are getting quite practised with creative routes to destinations.
I flew to Sardinia recently. From London we went out at Dover, then through Western Germany (round that sticky out bit of Eastern France). South over Zurich and Milan, over the island of Elba and then south to Sardinia. On the return we did fly directly over France with not much of an ATC delay.
Going west of French airspace there is a route that follows Longitude W009 up through Oceanic airspace that is run by that nice Celtic bunch at Shanwick (Shannon / Prestwick). This brings you out near Lands End. The French navy are not helping by running the occasional missile firing exercise in that part of the Atlantic and closing the T9 route
Good Luck
T'Bug
I flew to Sardinia recently. From London we went out at Dover, then through Western Germany (round that sticky out bit of Eastern France). South over Zurich and Milan, over the island of Elba and then south to Sardinia. On the return we did fly directly over France with not much of an ATC delay.
Going west of French airspace there is a route that follows Longitude W009 up through Oceanic airspace that is run by that nice Celtic bunch at Shanwick (Shannon / Prestwick). This brings you out near Lands End. The French navy are not helping by running the occasional missile firing exercise in that part of the Atlantic and closing the T9 route
Good Luck
T'Bug
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Half a million minutes of delay today thanks to our French colleagues . Let us know how you got on anengineer so we can see how this affects at least one member the travelling public.
. Let us know how you got on anengineer so we can see how this affects at least one member the travelling public.
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Long delays spain to uk yesterday evening.
If you are travelling AGP-BRS with easyJet, no HF radio on A319 so T9 route not available, not sure if ryanair have HF on 737s? but being a procedural service, limited capacity on T9 route.
If you are travelling AGP-BRS with easyJet, no HF radio on A319 so T9 route not available, not sure if ryanair have HF on 737s? but being a procedural service, limited capacity on T9 route.
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Thunderbug West(ern) Germany hasn't existed for a number of years, and it didn't start near Dover since 1944. A big thanks should be given to the staff at Maastricht UAC who make any routing out of the UK, in the UAS, possible. Unless you want to route via Copenhagen and Berlin. 
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Lon More: Stop being pedantic. Western Germany exists in the same way as Southern or Northern England. It's a region. Got delayed today by 2 hours going to IBZ from LGW. Then a 1 hour slot coming back. T9 routes were very congested, 2+ hours of delays, routing through France 2 or 3 hours of delays. Flying to France, 2 or 3 hours again.
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Shanwick T9 capacity
Hi T9 capacity is not normally regulated by Shanwick but by how much traffic the Santiago sector at Madrid can accept. Today some airlines were being creative in their flight planning and using Shanwick airspace but avoiding T9.
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This document may be of interest - a review of operating on the T9/T16 routes in Shanwick / Santa Maria OCA's - "Tango Routes in Shanwick OCA"
These routes are certainly seeing plenty of traffic this month with the French strike - busy times for the 5598 operators!
These routes are certainly seeing plenty of traffic this month with the French strike - busy times for the 5598 operators!
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Let us know how you got on anengineer so we can see how this affects at least one member the travelling public.
As far as other flights out of AGP, I would say that about 15% of them were showing as cancelled and probably 60-70% of the European flights were delayed between 1 & 2 hrs. Also, not sure if it had anything to do with the French action, but the gate numbers were changing like a game of musical chairs ! - Every half hour or so another announcement was made that flight xyz was now departing from a different gate to previously displayed and hoardes of passengers would up and move !
So, we were relatively lucky overall, and the impact (from AGP anyway) of the French action was pretty minimal, thanks to the creative routings of the airlines and you good people !
If only you could do something about the traffic on the M4 too
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Thanks for the feedback, sounds like a bit of a nightmare. I would imagine the gates fill up with aeroplanes delayed on the ground meaning the inbounds have to be parked wherever is vacant. Something of a disaster for all concerned with plenty more to follow.
I really have no idea what the objective of all this is. Perhaps one of our French ATC colleagues could explain. Last I heard was that this is a protest about retirement age being increased to 62! There will not be too much sympathy anywhere in Europe for that cause but I stand to be corrected, I've been Ppruning too long to think I know anything about popular opinion!
I really have no idea what the objective of all this is. Perhaps one of our French ATC colleagues could explain. Last I heard was that this is a protest about retirement age being increased to 62! There will not be too much sympathy anywhere in Europe for that cause but I stand to be corrected, I've been Ppruning too long to think I know anything about popular opinion!
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As far as other flights out of AGP, I would say that about 15% of them were showing as cancelled and probably 60-70% of the European flights were delayed between 1 & 2 hrs. Also, not sure if it had anything to do with the French action, but the gate numbers were changing like a game of musical chairs ! - Every half hour or so another announcement was made that flight xyz was now departing from a different gate to previously displayed and hoardes of passengers would up and move !
Anyone knows how flights are selected to run or to be cancelled?
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Lon more
My apologies - yes, I forgot to mention Mastrict control, but I also forgot to mention Heathrow delivery and Heathrow Ground who let us start on schedule and slow taxi to the runway. Heathrow tower who let us depart at the start of the slot. London ATC who gave us the most direct and expeditious departure routing I've ever got from LHR. Not forgetting the Swiss & Italian controllers that gave us direct routings wherever the could.
At the risk of sounding like an Oscar acceptance speech, I mustn't forget to mention the long suffering passengers who have to put up with this continuing nonsense.
Lon More, don't feel left out. You are a small but important part of a big jigsaw. Just don't expect us to roll the credits like they do at the end of a movie!
My apologies - yes, I forgot to mention Mastrict control, but I also forgot to mention Heathrow delivery and Heathrow Ground who let us start on schedule and slow taxi to the runway. Heathrow tower who let us depart at the start of the slot. London ATC who gave us the most direct and expeditious departure routing I've ever got from LHR. Not forgetting the Swiss & Italian controllers that gave us direct routings wherever the could.
At the risk of sounding like an Oscar acceptance speech, I mustn't forget to mention the long suffering passengers who have to put up with this continuing nonsense.
Lon More, don't feel left out. You are a small but important part of a big jigsaw. Just don't expect us to roll the credits like they do at the end of a movie!
Last edited by Thunderbug; 25th Sep 2010 at 10:11.
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Normally it is left to the airlines to reduce their programmes by the appropriate percentage. They will keep the most profitable routes and cancel the low revenue ones. The Spanish government will probably insist that the islands are served (Canaries, Ballearics) normally by determining a minimum service. The exact details should be issued soon.
Oh, and by the way, the French have extended their industrial action until the 30th September.
Details will be available here;
EUROCONTROL - Central Flow Management Unit (CFMU)
Click on CFMU NOP Public
Oh, and by the way, the French have extended their industrial action until the 30th September.
Details will be available here;
EUROCONTROL - Central Flow Management Unit (CFMU)
Click on CFMU NOP Public
Last edited by flowman; 25th Sep 2010 at 08:51.
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Flowman,
"The French" are not on strike.
French ATC is not on strike.
French controllers are not on strike.
They are not on strike !
We are not on strike !
8 posts against "the French" in 10 days... that's a score ! Many angry pilots don't reach that.
Whatever your problems with "the French", nobody's on strike in France today. Nor were they yesterday. The "call to strike" you refer to is not even a call to strike. At least not for French controllers.
Thus French controllers are not on strike.
Truth is out there... somewhere else...
And, by the way, we're not "colleagues", we're your client. The commission you earn in selling the time we build should remind you that.
In your job, do you protect French sectors as well as you protect "the French" on PPRuNe ? Maybe your service is much too expensive. Someone should have a look on that.
"The French" are not on strike.
French ATC is not on strike.
French controllers are not on strike.
They are not on strike !
We are not on strike !
8 posts against "the French" in 10 days... that's a score ! Many angry pilots don't reach that.
Whatever your problems with "the French", nobody's on strike in France today. Nor were they yesterday. The "call to strike" you refer to is not even a call to strike. At least not for French controllers.
Thus French controllers are not on strike.
Truth is out there... somewhere else...
And, by the way, we're not "colleagues", we're your client. The commission you earn in selling the time we build should remind you that.
In your job, do you protect French sectors as well as you protect "the French" on PPRuNe ? Maybe your service is much too expensive. Someone should have a look on that.
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Originally Posted by BrATCO
The French" are not on strike.
French ATC is not on strike.
French controllers are not on strike.
They are not on strike !
We are not on strike !
French ATC is not on strike.
French controllers are not on strike.
They are not on strike !
We are not on strike !
French Industrial Action - GENERAL ISSUES - Valid until 30th September
Strike in France has been extended until 30th September inclusive, as stated in Notam A5792/10
This means that delays for flights transiting French airspace or dep/dest any French aerodrome could be subject to unexpected delays
We expect regulations applied (daily) before and after the shift changes.
Such regulations might be cancelled at short notice, depending on the staff participating to the strike
This makes impossible any long term delay forecast.
Strike in France has been extended until 30th September inclusive, as stated in Notam A5792/10
This means that delays for flights transiting French airspace or dep/dest any French aerodrome could be subject to unexpected delays
We expect regulations applied (daily) before and after the shift changes.
Such regulations might be cancelled at short notice, depending on the staff participating to the strike
This makes impossible any long term delay forecast.
"The French" are not on strike.
French ATC is not on strike.
French controllers are not on strike.
They are not on strike !
We are not on strike !
8 posts against "the French" in 10 days... that's a score ! Many angry pilots don't reach that.
Whatever your problems with "the French", nobody's on strike in France today. Nor were they yesterday. The "call to strike" you refer to is not even a call to strike. At least not for French controllers.
Thus French controllers are not on strike.
French ATC is not on strike.
French controllers are not on strike.
They are not on strike !
We are not on strike !
8 posts against "the French" in 10 days... that's a score ! Many angry pilots don't reach that.
Whatever your problems with "the French", nobody's on strike in France today. Nor were they yesterday. The "call to strike" you refer to is not even a call to strike. At least not for French controllers.
Thus French controllers are not on strike.
This is not the only forum where the myth of an ongoing French strike is being perpetrated. Bratco and I LIVE and work in France. Stop inflating creative propaganda or NAME YOUR SOURCES.
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This is not the only forum where the myth of an ongoing French strike is being perpetrated. Bratco and I LIVE and work in France. Stop inflating creative propaganda or NAME YOUR SOURCES.
? And why have the French authorities (not anyone else) put out this in the NOTAM ?
DUE TO STRIKE AFFECTING FRENCH PUBLIC SERVICES, SOME DISTURBANCES MIGHT AFFECT FRENCH ATS,AIS AND COM SERVICES: 1)A MINIMUM SERVICE WILL BE ENSURED IN ACCS AND AT LFPG/ LFPO/ LFSB/ LFST/ LFLL/ LFLC/ LFMN/ LFML/ LFKB/ LFKC/ LFKJ/ LFBD/ LFBI/ LFBL/ LFBO/ LFRG/ LFRS AND OVERSEAS AIRPORTS. ACTUAL ATC CAPACITY WILL BE DETERMINED ACCORDING TO AVAILABLE STAFF. 2)AT OTHER AERODROMES,ATS SERVICES MIGHT BE UNAVAILABLE DURING CERTAIN PERIODS NOTIFIED BY NOTAMS. RMK : INFORMATION ON THE REAL TIME SITUATION WILL AVAILABLE ON THE FOLLOWING INTERNET WEBSITE: HTTP://DSNADO.CANALBLOG.COM. 24 SEP 05:00 2010 UNTIL 30 SEP 05:00 2010. CREATED: 24 SEP 06:46 2010
You have a great opportunity to counter the rumour it seems.
And other than this NOTAM, I am not aware of any other information 'leak'. Usual excuses are heavy sector traffic, and domino delays from earlier rotations for both LCCs and legacy carriers.
I do wish you'd all stop blaming the French because I think that you're all being encouraged to do so by others who take pleasure in creating smokescreens to hide their less than straightforward activities.
Will you all turn on the Spanish next week? Or does this sort of badmouthing only come in garlic flavour?