French strike - routing options ?
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I'll try to explain you what's happening in France.
Who gave notice of strike action?
The Union called UGFF CGT planned a strike between september, 24th to september, 29th.
source: Union Générale des Fédérations de Fonctionnaires
What are the implications of this strike?
All civil servants can join this union and therefore can go on strike during this period of time. As you may know, ATCOs in France are civil servants, so theorically ATCOs can go on strike between the 24th and the 29th.
To be sure that the air traffic will be dealt with, our administration decided to deal with this strike like any other strike of ATCOs and decided to requisition ATCOs & put some regulations on traffic (that's what stems from minimum service in France)
That's why you have the NOTAM
What are actually doing french ATCOs?
No controller belongs to the UGFF CGT and even the part of CGT which deals with ATCO (USAC CGT) does not call for a strike during this period. So there is no strike in air traffic control appart from september 23rd.
source: http://www.usac-cgt.org/sites/defaul...0septembre.pdf
(that's clearly written here: L'Union Générale des Fédérations de Fonctionnaires CGT a déposé un préavis de grève sur 8 jours, du 15 au 23 septembre, afin de couvrir les initiatives sectorielles ou individuelles de tous les agents de la Fonction Publique en amont du 23 septembre.
L'USAC-CGT appelle les agents de la DGAC à coordonner et à concentrer leurs actions spécifiquement sur la journée du 23 septembre afin de renforcer la mobilisation nationale.
to summarize: UGFF called for a strike between september, 15th to september 23rd (now 29th) but we ask you to concentrate yours actions specifically on september, 23rd)
So appart from september 23rd, there was no strike.
What we do is that we all go to work, the requisitions are removed and we all work as normal. But due to the regulations put in case some of us would go on strike (which are quickly removed when our administration realizes that nobody is on strike) there can be some disturbance at the begining of some shifts.
Now, your turn:
Where, when and how much?
(maybe they are just caused by surges of traffic? give me an example and I will try to find out what's happening!)
I hope my explanations were clear enough (and that my written english is not that rusted!)
Nock
Who gave notice of strike action?
The Union called UGFF CGT planned a strike between september, 24th to september, 29th.
source: Union Générale des Fédérations de Fonctionnaires
What are the implications of this strike?
All civil servants can join this union and therefore can go on strike during this period of time. As you may know, ATCOs in France are civil servants, so theorically ATCOs can go on strike between the 24th and the 29th.
To be sure that the air traffic will be dealt with, our administration decided to deal with this strike like any other strike of ATCOs and decided to requisition ATCOs & put some regulations on traffic (that's what stems from minimum service in France)
That's why you have the NOTAM
What are actually doing french ATCOs?
No controller belongs to the UGFF CGT and even the part of CGT which deals with ATCO (USAC CGT) does not call for a strike during this period. So there is no strike in air traffic control appart from september 23rd.
source: http://www.usac-cgt.org/sites/defaul...0septembre.pdf
(that's clearly written here: L'Union Générale des Fédérations de Fonctionnaires CGT a déposé un préavis de grève sur 8 jours, du 15 au 23 septembre, afin de couvrir les initiatives sectorielles ou individuelles de tous les agents de la Fonction Publique en amont du 23 septembre.
L'USAC-CGT appelle les agents de la DGAC à coordonner et à concentrer leurs actions spécifiquement sur la journée du 23 septembre afin de renforcer la mobilisation nationale.
to summarize: UGFF called for a strike between september, 15th to september 23rd (now 29th) but we ask you to concentrate yours actions specifically on september, 23rd)
So appart from september 23rd, there was no strike.
What we do is that we all go to work, the requisitions are removed and we all work as normal. But due to the regulations put in case some of us would go on strike (which are quickly removed when our administration realizes that nobody is on strike) there can be some disturbance at the begining of some shifts.
Now, your turn:
Why exactly have there been massive delays for traffic routeing through French airspace recently 
?
?
(maybe they are just caused by surges of traffic? give me an example and I will try to find out what's happening!)
I hope my explanations were clear enough (and that my written english is not that rusted!)
Nock
No controller belongs to the UGFF CGT and even the part of CGT which deals with ATCO (USAC CGT) does not call for a strike during this period. So there is no strike in air traffic control appart from september 23rd.
source: http://www.usac-cgt.org/sites/defaul...0septembre.pdf
source: http://www.usac-cgt.org/sites/defaul...0septembre.pdf
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It seems that today Eurocontrol agree with BrATCO & Alsacienne..........
Eurocontrol CFMU NOP
I hope it continues into tomorrow and I can look forward to a fine display of French ATC prowess on my flight to TLS (Beaucoup direct si'l vous plait
)
Eurocontrol CFMU NOP
Originally Posted by Eurocontrol
27/09/2010
French Industrial action -situation at 0645 on 27/09
All French regulations cancelled
French Industrial action -situation at 0645 on 27/09
All French regulations cancelled
I hope it continues into tomorrow and I can look forward to a fine display of French ATC prowess on my flight to TLS (Beaucoup direct si'l vous plait
)
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Thunderbug,
As usual, we'll provide as many directs as possible !
However, we shouldn't do that, regarding CFMU's recommandations...
EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM Adherence
PBW,
before the call to strike for the 12th, there is a "general" call to demonstrations (not a call to strike) : Saturday, 2nd.
Depending on government's reaction to this, I guess that the call to strike could be removed.
A "call to strike" is not yet a "strike".
As usual, we'll provide as many directs as possible !
However, we shouldn't do that, regarding CFMU's recommandations...
EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM Adherence
PBW,
before the call to strike for the 12th, there is a "general" call to demonstrations (not a call to strike) : Saturday, 2nd.
Depending on government's reaction to this, I guess that the call to strike could be removed.
A "call to strike" is not yet a "strike".
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I noted during last Thursday's French disruptions, flights into / out of the Balearic Islands were particularly affected. Presumably, because they are about as East as you can get in Spain, it is really not worthwhile to file Oceanic due to the length of the de-tour, but instead to sit and wait for slots through French Airspace to become available ?
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All references to French Industrial action come from the website of DSNA, I don't make this stuff up:
DSNA-Direction des Opérations
If there is no ATC industrial action perhaps you should tell whoever updates your own company website.
It is misleading to imply that regulations placed at the start of shifts and then cancelled do not cause any delay. They cause significant delay and can disrupt first rotations of AO programmes quite significantly which means knock on effects throught the day. These regulations are applied at the request of your FMPs. They are often applied at the start of subsequent shifts continuing the disruption throughout the day
There was enormous disruption on the 23rd September (207,000' of delay attributed to Bordeaux alone!, 407,000' in total), 7th September (200,000' in total)....as has been stated.
The adherence campaign is in response to requests from ANSPs (other air traffic control units). The vast majority of overloads are caused by aircraft arriving at non FPL FLs or because they departed outside slot times. If you ignore the recommendation you ignore the requests of your colleagues, not CFMU, we are simply the messenger.
flowman
DSNA-Direction des Opérations
If there is no ATC industrial action perhaps you should tell whoever updates your own company website.
It is misleading to imply that regulations placed at the start of shifts and then cancelled do not cause any delay. They cause significant delay and can disrupt first rotations of AO programmes quite significantly which means knock on effects throught the day. These regulations are applied at the request of your FMPs. They are often applied at the start of subsequent shifts continuing the disruption throughout the day
There was enormous disruption on the 23rd September (207,000' of delay attributed to Bordeaux alone!, 407,000' in total), 7th September (200,000' in total)....as has been stated.
The adherence campaign is in response to requests from ANSPs (other air traffic control units). The vast majority of overloads are caused by aircraft arriving at non FPL FLs or because they departed outside slot times. If you ignore the recommendation you ignore the requests of your colleagues, not CFMU, we are simply the messenger.
flowman
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"Industrial action" or not ?
Funny enough, I guess DSNA knows it (stand to be corrected).
Look at your reference to DSNA website : each time there's a restriction, they say an improvement should occur 15 min later. I would write it another way if I really expected an industrial action. But I'm only level 4...
The improvement occurs everytime.
Make your own mind.
As Nock explained us :
The requisitions are applied by high-up management, just "in case" we would decide to go on strike. Which we don't do because we have no reason. As nobody has been mean with us lately.
Misleading about delays caused by minimum service ?
Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
I wrote :
I meant I do totally, unconditionally, agree with you on this.
When minimum service is applied, supervisors (who don't have a right to go on strike either) must deal with the number of controllers they've got.
They can not guess, or suppose. Hence the restrictions.
If management says there could be a strike, who are supervisors to say : "no, there won't be..." ?
In fact, that's what they've done in Brest ACC, they've taken the responsability (in accordance with controllers) to open 10 sectors instead of 4 during the minimum service periods since a few days.
But if anything had gone wrong, that would have been supervisors' responsability. Management would've had done what had to be done.
So much for the supervisor...
Anyway, this call to industrial action has come to an end this morning.
September, 7th and 23rd :
Those two days WERE strike days which followed ATC unions' call to strike. Hence the huge delays.
There should be no industrial action from French controllers until October, 12th. (Caution : this is just my guess, no guaranty !)
Adherence days :
Of course, I will "stick to the plan".
When we did "stick to the plan" this summer, we were called "unprofessional" by pilots. Now we would be called the same by Eurocontrol if we don't .........
.........
If there is no ATC industrial action perhaps you should tell whoever updates your own company website.
Look at your reference to DSNA website : each time there's a restriction, they say an improvement should occur 15 min later. I would write it another way if I really expected an industrial action. But I'm only level 4...
The improvement occurs everytime.
Make your own mind.
As Nock explained us :
All civil servants can join this union and therefore can go on strike during this period of time. As you may know, ATCOs in France are civil servants, so theorically ATCOs can go on strike between the 24th and the 29th.
To be sure that the air traffic will be dealt with, our administration decided to deal with this strike like any other strike of ATCOs and decided to requisition ATCOs & put some regulations on traffic (that's what stems from minimum service in France)
That's why you have the NOTAM
To be sure that the air traffic will be dealt with, our administration decided to deal with this strike like any other strike of ATCOs and decided to requisition ATCOs & put some regulations on traffic (that's what stems from minimum service in France)
That's why you have the NOTAM
Misleading about delays caused by minimum service ?
Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
I wrote :
Definitely, collapsing and splitting again sectors in the morning creates delays for the whole day.
When minimum service is applied, supervisors (who don't have a right to go on strike either) must deal with the number of controllers they've got.
They can not guess, or suppose. Hence the restrictions.
If management says there could be a strike, who are supervisors to say : "no, there won't be..." ?
In fact, that's what they've done in Brest ACC, they've taken the responsability (in accordance with controllers) to open 10 sectors instead of 4 during the minimum service periods since a few days.
But if anything had gone wrong, that would have been supervisors' responsability. Management would've had done what had to be done.
So much for the supervisor...
Anyway, this call to industrial action has come to an end this morning.
September, 7th and 23rd :
Those two days WERE strike days which followed ATC unions' call to strike. Hence the huge delays.
There should be no industrial action from French controllers until October, 12th. (Caution : this is just my guess, no guaranty !)
Adherence days :
Of course, I will "stick to the plan".
When we did "stick to the plan" this summer, we were called "unprofessional" by pilots. Now we would be called the same by Eurocontrol if we don't .........
.........
Last edited by BrATCO; 1st Oct 2010 at 08:57. Reason: wording
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More disruption possible this weekend (1700 today to 0500 Sunday morning):
(A5981/10 NOTAMN
Q)LFXX/QXXXX/IV/NBO/E /000/999/4558N00520E999 A)LFEE LFBB LFFF LFMM LFRR B)1010011700 C)1010030500 E)DUE TO STRIKE AFFECTING FRENCH PUBLIC SERVICES, SOME DISTURBANCES MIGHT AFFECT FRENCH ATS,AIS AND COM SERVICES:
1- A MINIMUM SERVICE WILL BE ENSURED IN ACCS AND AT LFPG/LFPO/LFSB/LFST/LFLL/LFLC/LFMN/LFML/LFKB/LFKC/LFKJ/LFBD/LFBI/LFBL
/LFBO/LFRG/LFRS AND OVERSEAS AIRPORTS.
ACTUAL ATC CAPACITY WILL BE DETERMINED ACCORDING TO AVAILABLE STAFF.
2- AT OTHER AERODROMES,ATS SERVICES MIGHT BE UNAVAILABLE DURING CERTAIN PERIODS NOTIFIED BY NOTAMS.
RMK:INFORMATION ON THE REAL TIME SITUATION WILL BE AVAILABLE ON THE FOLLOWING INTERNET WEBSITE: HTTP://DSNADO.CANALBLOG.COM)
(A5981/10 NOTAMN
Q)LFXX/QXXXX/IV/NBO/E /000/999/4558N00520E999 A)LFEE LFBB LFFF LFMM LFRR B)1010011700 C)1010030500 E)DUE TO STRIKE AFFECTING FRENCH PUBLIC SERVICES, SOME DISTURBANCES MIGHT AFFECT FRENCH ATS,AIS AND COM SERVICES:
1- A MINIMUM SERVICE WILL BE ENSURED IN ACCS AND AT LFPG/LFPO/LFSB/LFST/LFLL/LFLC/LFMN/LFML/LFKB/LFKC/LFKJ/LFBD/LFBI/LFBL
/LFBO/LFRG/LFRS AND OVERSEAS AIRPORTS.
ACTUAL ATC CAPACITY WILL BE DETERMINED ACCORDING TO AVAILABLE STAFF.
2- AT OTHER AERODROMES,ATS SERVICES MIGHT BE UNAVAILABLE DURING CERTAIN PERIODS NOTIFIED BY NOTAMS.
RMK:INFORMATION ON THE REAL TIME SITUATION WILL BE AVAILABLE ON THE FOLLOWING INTERNET WEBSITE: HTTP://DSNADO.CANALBLOG.COM)
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I did say disruption was POSSIBLE, so spotted that clue thanks. But:
Minimum service regulations have already been requested by Paris and Marseille, we are still awaiting decisions from Brest and Bordeaux. So there WILL be disruption for the airlines who have already advised us that they have busy night programmes this weekend and already face knock on delays throughout the day.
Minimum service regulations have already been requested by Paris and Marseille, we are still awaiting decisions from Brest and Bordeaux. So there WILL be disruption for the airlines who have already advised us that they have busy night programmes this weekend and already face knock on delays throughout the day.
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We have just co-ordinated with Algeria for traffic to re-route via their airspace to avoid Marseille restrictions.
No special permission to fly via Algerian airspace will be required during the period of the strike (1700 utc Friday to 0500 utc Sunday).
Operators using this route MUST address their FPLs to DAAAZQZX and DTTCZXZX. Failure to do so will jeopardise this agreement and may result in traffic being refused.
flowman
No special permission to fly via Algerian airspace will be required during the period of the strike (1700 utc Friday to 0500 utc Sunday).
Operators using this route MUST address their FPLs to DAAAZQZX and DTTCZXZX. Failure to do so will jeopardise this agreement and may result in traffic being refused.
flowman
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Flowman,
The "clue" was about whether the management knows about the situation in control rooms or not. It was not about your ability to read a NOTAM.
I understand reroutings COULD be useful, but there's a big risk that the "strike" will be tomorrow as it was yesterday, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before,... Naught.
@ Pilots, companies : Don't forget to try via France.
There's no call to strike for tomorrow (2nd October) from any French ATC union.
The "clue" was about whether the management knows about the situation in control rooms or not. It was not about your ability to read a NOTAM.
I understand reroutings COULD be useful, but there's a big risk that the "strike" will be tomorrow as it was yesterday, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before,... Naught.
@ Pilots, companies : Don't forget to try via France.
There's no call to strike for tomorrow (2nd October) from any French ATC union.
Last edited by BrATCO; 1st Oct 2010 at 13:32. Reason: typo, once more...
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I'm really sorry but I don't understand you at all Flowman.
On one hand you say that we have to abide by procedures and stick to the RFL:
On the other hand you seem to mean that we shouldn't abide by procedures and do not implement regulations when there is a risk of strike because it creates delays:
As we (BrATCO, Alsacienne and me) tried to explain is that there was nobody on strike during these days but there was a potential general industrial action and therefore we had to respect procedures in case a team wouldn't show up.
We are criticized for implementing delays in case there were a strike but imagine if we didn't and that people decided to go on strike. Don't you think that it would be far worse?
We are also criticized for not following the RFL but when we did, all airlines said we were not professional and that this behaviour was not tolerable!
I wish there was a manual where it would be written which rules we have to abide by and which ones we don't have to follow, but unfortunately it doesn't exist.
Nock
On one hand you say that we have to abide by procedures and stick to the RFL:
The adherence campaign is in response to requests from ANSPs (other air traffic control units). The vast majority of overloads are caused by aircraft arriving at non FPL FLs or because they departed outside slot times. If you ignore the recommendation you ignore the requests of your colleagues, not CFMU, we are simply the messenger.
It is misleading to imply that regulations placed at the start of shifts and then cancelled do not cause any delay. They cause significant delay and can disrupt first rotations of AO programmes quite significantly which means knock on effects throught the day. These regulations are applied at the request of your FMPs. They are often applied at the start of subsequent shifts continuing the disruption throughout the day
We are criticized for implementing delays in case there were a strike but imagine if we didn't and that people decided to go on strike. Don't you think that it would be far worse?
We are also criticized for not following the RFL but when we did, all airlines said we were not professional and that this behaviour was not tolerable!
I wish there was a manual where it would be written which rules we have to abide by and which ones we don't have to follow, but unfortunately it doesn't exist.
Nock
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Next French strike:
ACTION IS DUE TO START 1700UTC 11/10/10 AND CONTINUE
UNTIL 0500UTC WEDNESDAY 13/10/10.
.
LEVEL OF DISRUPTION IS NOT YET KNOWN.
The only information received so far is from Brest FMP indicating that Brest ACC will be reduced to minimum service from the start of the night shift at1800utc. Other FMPs should supply details of expected levels of service during Monday and updates will be made available here:
https://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUB...pec/index.html
ACTION IS DUE TO START 1700UTC 11/10/10 AND CONTINUE
UNTIL 0500UTC WEDNESDAY 13/10/10.
.
LEVEL OF DISRUPTION IS NOT YET KNOWN.
The only information received so far is from Brest FMP indicating that Brest ACC will be reduced to minimum service from the start of the night shift at1800utc. Other FMPs should supply details of expected levels of service during Monday and updates will be made available here:
https://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUB...pec/index.html
Last edited by flowman; 10th Oct 2010 at 18:33.
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It seems that last week's demonstrations (no strike) weren't enough to find an agreement.
This call to strike is "renewable", which means that anybody can go on strike anytime from the 12th onward. No time limit. As far as I know, more than 400 calls nationwide.
On the ATC side of the problem, my prediction is : huge disruption the 12th (beginning the 11th after 1700 UTC). Then, once again, the daily disruptions due, once again, to the minimum service (as explained above).
This call to strike is "renewable", which means that anybody can go on strike anytime from the 12th onward. No time limit. As far as I know, more than 400 calls nationwide.
On the ATC side of the problem, my prediction is : huge disruption the 12th (beginning the 11th after 1700 UTC). Then, once again, the daily disruptions due, once again, to the minimum service (as explained above).
Last edited by BrATCO; 10th Oct 2010 at 23:19. Reason: typo...
