EGTG / London Control
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EGTG / London Control
Hello there,
I am looking for a bit of advice on an IFR route from the ATCO's point of view, in terms of traffic management and flow.
I am planning to take an IFR trip with a twin engine aircraft, as a GA flight, from EGTC (Cranfield) to EGTG (Bristol Filton) and back.
I am perfectly aware of the UK airways system, IFR rules, flight plans and the use of them.
What I am after is a bit of advice in order to avoid trouble in what it is intended to be a pleasure flight, but at the same time safe, flawless and expeditious. In short I would like not to be in a half an hour hold over an enroute beacon because the planned flight is in the middle of the heaviest commercial network in the UK, and the controllers cannot give me any clearance.
As you know EGTC is O/CAS, therefore after my departure I would join the CAS at WCO NBD (Westcott) and then:
R41 NORRY L9 MALBY DCT OF
Planned FL: 100
Being ATCO you are aware of the traffic flow on the aformentioned planned route, and you might know if in normal traffic, weather and aerodrome conditions, the access at WCO and the planned route would be cleared.
Many thanks indeed for your help.
amcapt89
I am looking for a bit of advice on an IFR route from the ATCO's point of view, in terms of traffic management and flow.
I am planning to take an IFR trip with a twin engine aircraft, as a GA flight, from EGTC (Cranfield) to EGTG (Bristol Filton) and back.
I am perfectly aware of the UK airways system, IFR rules, flight plans and the use of them.
What I am after is a bit of advice in order to avoid trouble in what it is intended to be a pleasure flight, but at the same time safe, flawless and expeditious. In short I would like not to be in a half an hour hold over an enroute beacon because the planned flight is in the middle of the heaviest commercial network in the UK, and the controllers cannot give me any clearance.
As you know EGTC is O/CAS, therefore after my departure I would join the CAS at WCO NBD (Westcott) and then:
R41 NORRY L9 MALBY DCT OF
Planned FL: 100
Being ATCO you are aware of the traffic flow on the aformentioned planned route, and you might know if in normal traffic, weather and aerodrome conditions, the access at WCO and the planned route would be cleared.
Many thanks indeed for your help.
amcapt89
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Morning amcapt89
What time of day did you want to fly? How busy it is in the area you want to join is going to make a difference to your joining clearance, as you are aware. It will also make a slight difference if the prevailing conditions make it Easterlies or Westerlies at the major London airports, as you might start to mix it with traffic inbound to Luton and Heathrow looking for short cuts on an Easterly day.
However, my lovely colleagues on the North Bank in TC are just like the rest of us, and always endeavour to provide the best possible service. You will most likely get a join within minutes, and once joined should have no delay en route.
The other thing to be sure of is what your intentions and options are if by any chance you don't get a a join... would you hold and await one? Continue en-route and see if you can get a join further down (CPT?)
"In short I would like not to be in a half an hour hold over an enroute beacon because the planned flight is in the middle of the heaviest commercial network in the UK, and the controllers cannot give me any clearance."
Your flight is in the middle of the heaviest commercial network in the UK. But we're nice (Mostly !
), and will do our best to give you what you want.
Make sure your flight plan is filed, consider who you will ask for your joining clearance, who (if anyone) you will work whilst outside CAS, and what you will do if you don't get what you want.
IF you can accelerate to 300 knots and climb at 3000ft per min that'll help as well!
Have a good flight.
Cheers,
Northerner
"Keep smiling - it makes people wonder what you're up to...."
What time of day did you want to fly? How busy it is in the area you want to join is going to make a difference to your joining clearance, as you are aware. It will also make a slight difference if the prevailing conditions make it Easterlies or Westerlies at the major London airports, as you might start to mix it with traffic inbound to Luton and Heathrow looking for short cuts on an Easterly day.
However, my lovely colleagues on the North Bank in TC are just like the rest of us, and always endeavour to provide the best possible service. You will most likely get a join within minutes, and once joined should have no delay en route.
The other thing to be sure of is what your intentions and options are if by any chance you don't get a a join... would you hold and await one? Continue en-route and see if you can get a join further down (CPT?)
"In short I would like not to be in a half an hour hold over an enroute beacon because the planned flight is in the middle of the heaviest commercial network in the UK, and the controllers cannot give me any clearance."
Your flight is in the middle of the heaviest commercial network in the UK. But we're nice (Mostly !
), and will do our best to give you what you want.Make sure your flight plan is filed, consider who you will ask for your joining clearance, who (if anyone) you will work whilst outside CAS, and what you will do if you don't get what you want.
IF you can accelerate to 300 knots and climb at 3000ft per min that'll help as well!
Have a good flight.
Cheers,
Northerner
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As a holder of a TC Midlands validation I'd say your best bet is to join CAS at DTY on 130.925 then go to CPT MALBY etc so you don't interfere with TMA departures. I know it means a few extrs miles but if its a pleasure flight you'll almost certainly have the pleasure of not holding anywhere. Unless RED Watch are on , then due to their outstanding sick record anything could happen! 
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Originally Posted by OCK Hi
Unless RED Watch are on , then due to their outstanding sick record anything could happen!
To answer the original question. FL100 southbound in that vicinity isn't ideal. There is a standing agreement for EGHH/EGHI northbounds in place climbing to FL100 towards NORRY. A lot of controllers will keep you at FL90 until clear of any Solent outbounds.
What is likely to happen if it is anything other than dead traffic wise is you will be given clearance to join CAS o/t WCO, then given vectors in a south westerly direction to intercept L9 in the vicinity of KENET. This will keep you clear of any TMA departures and will get you "out of the way" sooner. It's also a shortcut!
The situation in this section of airspace can vary enormously depending on which aircraft are going where. A gaggle of Solent inbounds, an EGTK inbound, an inbound on a base leg to to EGGW on 08, or anything else that may end up out that direction may make the controllers plan very different.
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But, despite the inter watch sniping, hopefully everyone appreciates that as Amcapt89 is flying on a private flight on an IFR flight plan he has exactly the same flight priority as all the other IFR flights flying about (RYR, EZY, BAW et al) and he shouldn't be held up just because some of them want to try and corner cut into whatever airport they are going to.
Any sector capacity delays will be dealt with by CFMU and Amcapt89's entry into CAS once airborne should of course be seamless!
Any sector capacity delays will be dealt with by CFMU and Amcapt89's entry into CAS once airborne should of course be seamless!
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Hello everyone,
many thanks indeed for your answers and for your help!
I knew already that ATCOs are always kind and polite... In my experience I have always found friendly people on the other end, trying to give a hand to the pilots if they can, that's why I do not want to spoil their day, being in the wrong place on a GA flight!
As a pilot I have plan B (and C too), we have to be prepared for those man ATCOs... In case I won't be able to the access to the airways system, Plan B would be to go low level IFR O/CAS... Plan C would be to cancel IFR and close the FPL, and go VFR. It will depend on the WX.
CPT might be a good point, but it will be high workload, being IFR O/CAS, and having Wycombe ATZ / Benson MATZ / LTMA.
300 kts... No way in a million years... 3000 fpm maybe for a couple of seconds...
Well that might be an option too, and I am really used to get acces in the DTY area with London Control on 130.925... On the other side of the coin, that would mean lose a good 50 miles worth of fuel, and spend 30 mins more as flight time. That won't be cost effective and expeditious on a twin engine a/c...!
That would be the ideal situation... FL100 was just to plan according with the track, but FL90 would be perfect as well.
Again many thanks indeed for your help and for your expertise!
amcapt89
many thanks indeed for your answers and for your help!
However, my lovely colleagues on the North Bank in TC are just like the rest of us, and always endeavour to provide the best possible service. You will most likely get a join within minutes, and once joined should have no delay en route.
The other thing to be sure of is what your intentions and options are if by any chance you don't get a a join... would you hold and await one? Continue en-route and see if you can get a join further down (CPT?)
The other thing to be sure of is what your intentions and options are if by any chance you don't get a a join... would you hold and await one? Continue en-route and see if you can get a join further down (CPT?)
As a pilot I have plan B (and C too), we have to be prepared for those man ATCOs...
In case I won't be able to the access to the airways system, Plan B would be to go low level IFR O/CAS... Plan C would be to cancel IFR and close the FPL, and go VFR. It will depend on the WX.CPT might be a good point, but it will be high workload, being IFR O/CAS, and having Wycombe ATZ / Benson MATZ / LTMA.
IF you can accelerate to 300 knots and climb at 3000ft per min that'll help as well! 
As a holder of a TC Midlands validation I'd say your best bet is to join CAS at DTY on 130.925 then go to CPT MALBY etc so you don't interfere with TMA departures. I know it means a few extrs miles but if its a pleasure flight you'll almost certainly have the pleasure of not holding anywhere
To answer the original question. FL100 southbound in that vicinity isn't ideal. There is a standing agreement for EGHH/EGHI northbounds in place climbing to FL100 towards NORRY. A lot of controllers will keep you at FL90 until clear of any Solent outbounds.
What is likely to happen if it is anything other than dead traffic wise is you will be given clearance to join CAS o/t WCO, then given vectors in a south westerly direction to intercept L9 in the vicinity of KENET. This will keep you clear of any TMA departures and will get you "out of the way" sooner. It's also a shortcut!
What is likely to happen if it is anything other than dead traffic wise is you will be given clearance to join CAS o/t WCO, then given vectors in a south westerly direction to intercept L9 in the vicinity of KENET. This will keep you clear of any TMA departures and will get you "out of the way" sooner. It's also a shortcut!
Again many thanks indeed for your help and for your expertise!
amcapt89
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Originally Posted by Roffa
Any sector capacity delays will be dealt with by CFMU and Amcapt89's entry into CAS once airborne should of course be seamless!
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Try telling that to some of the more "nervous" controllers!
That's nothing wrong there; commercial traffic must have priority for several reasons: they have paying customers on board, willing to get on the deck as soon as possible, they're much faster that a GA a/c and it's much easier to vecotr around a twin light aircraft that to make slow down a B747; moreover it's much more cost effective to put on hold a twin a/c waiting to enter CAS, than a B747, burning tons of fuel and money per hour...!
I bet that in ATCO's manuals the priority order in favour of commercial traffic, is written somewhere, as it should be!
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A GA aircraft has exactly the same amount of priority as a B747.
However a GA aircraft causes a very high degree of workload as they are so slow.
In your CPT senario, all jets westbound from LL have to be climbed through your level, everyone will be on headings or these jets will be asked to expedite climbs to achieve the required separation.
I have not mentioned the northbounds from HI or deps from GW etc.
I think you were after some advise as well, so I think it would be better to avoid the main westbound flow to the USA, from about 1030 to 1300 local.
In the distant future, it would not surprise me at all if your type of flight was banned, due to the increase in CO2 emmissions and fuel burn it causes to other aircraft.
However a GA aircraft causes a very high degree of workload as they are so slow.
In your CPT senario, all jets westbound from LL have to be climbed through your level, everyone will be on headings or these jets will be asked to expedite climbs to achieve the required separation.
I have not mentioned the northbounds from HI or deps from GW etc.
I think you were after some advise as well, so I think it would be better to avoid the main westbound flow to the USA, from about 1030 to 1300 local.
In the distant future, it would not surprise me at all if your type of flight was banned, due to the increase in CO2 emmissions and fuel burn it causes to other aircraft.
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747 and PA28 same priority
then I woke up.
It does work both ways, in so far as a on the ball PA28 guy can be much more flexable and make more interesting manouvers than a heavy 747.
Given a PA at 140 kts on the SID, and a 747 holding till PA is as safe seperation, does not make for many friends.
Having done both, I know which ac I prefer to fly.
glf
It does work both ways, in so far as a on the ball PA28 guy can be much more flexable and make more interesting manouvers than a heavy 747.
Given a PA at 140 kts on the SID, and a 747 holding till PA is as safe seperation, does not make for many friends.
Having done both, I know which ac I prefer to fly.
glf
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File your flight plan using standard airways routeings, at whatever level you want to file.
FL100 is not ideal for that route as mentioned, but that is because of Standing Agreement levels and is of absolutely no concern to you and should not influence your decision... it certainly should not stop an ATCO from granting you entry clearance - just because you file a requested level it doesn't mean you will be given it straightaway or even at all, you may be given a level near to it that suits the traffic situation at the time.
Slow, poor performance aircraft do cause headaches, but they have the same priority as airliners etc. That is why ATCOs get paid the money they do, to sort out the traffic. If your flight plan is unacceptable, it will be binned or amended way before a flight strip gets placed in front of an ATCO.
That part of airspace is very busy - CPT is a magnet and it is not unusual to have aircraft at every available level there, all crossing each other.
Expect to be put on radar vectors, expect to be allocated a level other than your requested one, expect a small delay (traffic dependant there might be no delay) to your joining clearance.
If you get airborne with those expectations, you will not be disappointed and you will have an enjoyable flight.
FL100 is not ideal for that route as mentioned, but that is because of Standing Agreement levels and is of absolutely no concern to you and should not influence your decision... it certainly should not stop an ATCO from granting you entry clearance - just because you file a requested level it doesn't mean you will be given it straightaway or even at all, you may be given a level near to it that suits the traffic situation at the time.
Slow, poor performance aircraft do cause headaches, but they have the same priority as airliners etc. That is why ATCOs get paid the money they do, to sort out the traffic. If your flight plan is unacceptable, it will be binned or amended way before a flight strip gets placed in front of an ATCO.
That part of airspace is very busy - CPT is a magnet and it is not unusual to have aircraft at every available level there, all crossing each other.
Expect to be put on radar vectors, expect to be allocated a level other than your requested one, expect a small delay (traffic dependant there might be no delay) to your joining clearance.
If you get airborne with those expectations, you will not be disappointed and you will have an enjoyable flight.
Last edited by anotherthing; 12th Jul 2010 at 10:15.
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I bet that in ATCO's manuals the priority order in favour of commercial traffic, is written somewhere, as it should be!
That saying, a light, slow (compared to turboprops/jets) aircraft often causes inconvenience to the controller and so can be expected to be vectored around the sky to make way for the faster aircraft. It very often depends on the time of day and current traffic situation.
I agree with <anotherthing> in saying that if you get airborne knowing you might not get your requested flight level or exact route, then you should have no problem with your flight.
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Amcapt89
Which is exactly what happens with commercial traffic when it gets busy on airways anywhere in the world.
Bear that in mind before you get airborne and you will, hopefully, have an enjoyable flight knowing that you will be treated with the same professionalism as all other users of that airspace.
Let us all know how you got on.
if you get airborne knowing you might not get your requested flight level or exact route, then you should have no problem with your flight.
Bear that in mind before you get airborne and you will, hopefully, have an enjoyable flight knowing that you will be treated with the same professionalism as all other users of that airspace.
Let us all know how you got on.
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Expect to be put on radar vectors, expect to be allocated a level other than your requested one, expect a small delay (traffic dependant there might be no delay) to your joining clearance.
I have also learnt something new about priority between IFR flights in CAS.
As always, I will be prepared to hold/ have a level other than the planned onel/ be vectored around and so on. Generally speaking I will be ready for different scenarios, and different course of actions on my side... After all your comments, I'll be much more prepared to respond to what it could happen.
As you lovely ATCOs might know
, now I have a good essential "picture" of the traffic, the area, the use of the airspace and of my flight within the chosen route.I will let you know how I will get on...!
(by the way, the flight is being planned for next week!)Many thanks indeed for all your help!
Cheers.
amcapt89
