Airliners mixing it with gliders and puddle-jumpers?
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Airliners mixing it with gliders and puddle-jumpers?
I've just been reading an old, closed, thread "LTN arrivals" and wonder about some of the arrivals which seem to have started flying at lower alts over Cambridgeshire, below the controlled airspace with base 5,500ft msl.
I noticed a twin-jet flying southwest over Gransden Lodge when I was flying near there in Nov 09. It was at 4,000ft (level with me) and overhead an active glider site. A few days later I was on the ground at that airfield and a similar flight occurred. Recently [I was on the ground in my garden and] noticed something similar and complained to Luton, who told me that it was an Easyjet positioning flight. It was 10 Apr and I reckon LTN were on 08 that day.
This increase in activity bothers me because it is over where I live, but more to the point it seems less than sensible for airliners to be mixing it with gliders who are all but invisible to the eye and radar. Why are they not above 5,500ft and in the controlled airspace?
I noticed a twin-jet flying southwest over Gransden Lodge when I was flying near there in Nov 09. It was at 4,000ft (level with me) and overhead an active glider site. A few days later I was on the ground at that airfield and a similar flight occurred. Recently [I was on the ground in my garden and] noticed something similar and complained to Luton, who told me that it was an Easyjet positioning flight. It was 10 Apr and I reckon LTN were on 08 that day.
This increase in activity bothers me because it is over where I live, but more to the point it seems less than sensible for airliners to be mixing it with gliders who are all but invisible to the eye and radar. Why are they not above 5,500ft and in the controlled airspace?
Last edited by BugOutWest; 25th Apr 2010 at 14:35.
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complained to Luton
Why are they not above 5,500ft and in the controlled airspace?
It may have been more expeditious for the jet to join Luton at 4A so as not to get in the mix of Essex traffic.
The default clearance for aircraft coming out of Cambridge that want to join controlled airspace to the south is to fly towards Barkway at 2.4A and contact Essex Radar. Essex will then when able give that aircraft further climb and routing in instructions when it's safe to do so.
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Just look at the likes of Newcastle 40% of the IFR inbounds route through class G airspace mixing it with fast jets not so fast jets, gliders, light aircraft, micro lights, hang gliders etc etc. With only one linking airway from the South West what else can they do!
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Class G Airspace and rights
Why? surely they have the same right as you in be in Class G airspace.
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Why are they not above 5,500ft and in the controlled airspace?
The jet could have been on it's way back from an air test to the north or out of Cambridge. The a/c can't simply join controlled airspace at any level due to other traffic that may already be there.
Why are they not above 5,500ft and in the controlled airspace?
The jet could have been on it's way back from an air test to the north or out of Cambridge. The a/c can't simply join controlled airspace at any level due to other traffic that may already be there.
It may have been more expeditious for the jet to join Luton at 4A so as not to get in the mix of Essex traffic.
The default clearance for aircraft coming out of Cambridge that want to join controlled airspace to the south is to fly towards Barkway at 2.4A and contact Essex Radar. Essex will then when able give that aircraft further climb and routing in instructions when it's safe to do so.
The default clearance for aircraft coming out of Cambridge that want to join controlled airspace to the south is to fly towards Barkway at 2.4A and contact Essex Radar. Essex will then when able give that aircraft further climb and routing in instructions when it's safe to do so.
This monitoring on my part came as a result of the flawed and aborted NATS consultation last year (or was it the year before). The argument was started among non-aviation types in the area about the base of the holds for STN and LTN, whereas my assertion has always been that the base altitude is immaterial: the aircraft will drop out of any stack when it can and make its way towards the approach at whatever altitude the captain decides with ATC. It's the general practice that we, the public, need to consider, not the holds and their altitudes.
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GAT, gliders and airliners in Class G airspace
Just look at the likes of Newcastle 40% of the IFR inbounds route through class G airspace mixing it with fast jets not so fast jets, gliders, light aircraft, micro lights, hang gliders etc etc. With only one linking airway from the South West what else can they do!
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I don't think you can have read my post: it was an Easyjet positioning flight that flew over my house. That doesn't sound like an air test.
the aircraft will drop out of any stack when it can and make its way towards the approach at whatever altitude the captain decides with ATC.
flawed and aborted NATS consultation
How is separation from gliders maintained?
Last edited by Vortex Issues; 25th Apr 2010 at 08:42. Reason: extras
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<<the aircraft will drop out of any stack when it can and make its way towards the approach at whatever altitude the captain decides with ATC. >>
The writer of this gem is, apparently, a QFI. I am surprised at his lack of knowledge.
The writer of this gem is, apparently, a QFI. I am surprised at his lack of knowledge.
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This increase in activity bothers me because it is over where I live, <snip>
When you were blatting about yourself making lots of noise in FJs, did you ever spare a thought for the folk you were making noise over? A modern airliner must be much quieter than a 1980s vintage mil jet.
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Holds etc ...
<<the aircraft will drop out of any stack when it can and make its way towards the approach at whatever altitude the captain decides with ATC. >>
The writer of this gem is, apparently, a QFI. I am surprised at his lack of knowledge.
The writer of this gem is, apparently, a QFI. I am surprised at his lack of knowledge.
And how the rules are laid out and how operators operate are sometimes subtly different.
For instance, I know that I may fly at 2,000ft over an ATZ, or 3,000ft over a MATZ, but to do so without talking to ATC would be poor airmanship and perhaps more than a little dangerous.
So, my point is, that it's just as risky and lacking in airmanship for a large aircraft to fly over a glider site at or just above the top of the launch envelope without knowing where the gliders are flying.
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that it's just as risky and lacking in airmanship for a large aircraft to fly over a glider site at or just above the top of the launch envelope without knowing where the gliders are flying.
It sounds like you are presuming that this Easyjet a/c was bumbling around class G on it's way to Luton, and not talking to anyone.
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FJ and past noise
The irony of an ex-mil FJ pilot complaining about noise and seemingly also unaware of the "see and avoid" principle in Class G airspace is not lost on me!
BugOutWest, for someone who has if your profile is to be believed spent their life in aviation, a lot of it at my expense as I'm a tax payer, I find this to be NIMBYism at its worst.
When you were blatting about yourself making lots of noise in FJs, did you ever spare a thought for the folk you were making noise over? A modern airliner must be much quieter than a 1980s vintage mil jet.
When you were blatting about yourself making lots of noise in FJs, did you ever spare a thought for the folk you were making noise over? A modern airliner must be much quieter than a 1980s vintage mil jet.
But I live nowhere near an airport, military or civilian so noise from an increasing intensity of airline traffic is of course a concern, especially when I don't believe in allowing the UK to become more of a hub for the rest of Europe.
But that's not my argument: I am an aviator, and as such I believe that the practice of mixing airliners with small GAT or gliders (which, as I said, are nearly invisible) is more risky than necessary. My complaints about noise are minor (a twin-jet at 4,300ft is pretty quiet -- not as noisy as the aerobatter nearby, for instance).
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Stacks and NATS consultation
Quote:
the aircraft will drop out of any stack when it can and make its way towards the approach at whatever altitude the captain decides with ATC.
The captain does not decide what level they leave the stack at. The approach controller manages the stacks, gives vectors from the stacks and descends the aircraft. Normally the aircraft will leave the stack at min stack level, FL70 or 80 normally (depending on the QNH)
the aircraft will drop out of any stack when it can and make its way towards the approach at whatever altitude the captain decides with ATC.
The captain does not decide what level they leave the stack at. The approach controller manages the stacks, gives vectors from the stacks and descends the aircraft. Normally the aircraft will leave the stack at min stack level, FL70 or 80 normally (depending on the QNH)
And your points about the NATS consultation makes me believe that NATS should have had you on their PR team, explaining what and how would happen with the new holds for Luton and Stansted. The noise envelope graphics they used were obscure to a great proportion of Joe Public and some of the assumptions/facts that they used were incorrect.
But, we shall see how it goes next time.
It would be good to meet some of you chaps over a beer to discuss it, but this information has been most useful, thanks.
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BugOutWest,
All the control for the traffic you're talking about is done down at Swanwick.
With your QFI hat on get in touch with the folk down there and bring yourself and some of your studes down for a visit, you'd be very welcome I'm sure.
It would be good to meet some of you chaps over a beer to discuss it, but this information has been most useful, thanks.
With your QFI hat on get in touch with the folk down there and bring yourself and some of your studes down for a visit, you'd be very welcome I'm sure.
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Good plan!
All the control for the traffic you're talking about is done down at Swanwick.
With your QFI hat on get in touch with the folk down there and bring yourself and some of your studes down for a visit, you'd be very welcome I'm sure.
With your QFI hat on get in touch with the folk down there and bring yourself and some of your studes down for a visit, you'd be very welcome I'm sure.
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Primary returns?
Gliders - Radar - In my 28 years of experience a primary radar will show gliders up very well!
I must admit that I thought that plastic structures would do a good job of transparency to radar waves.
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So a controller will be able to deconflict gliders from other aircraft under normal circumstances?
"Big Jet 123, area of high intensity gliding in your 12 o'clock, 5 miles, keep a good look out"
