Spanish ATC "Work to rule"

[Alfredo tp]

Didn't say that Africa shouldn't improve, it even has to (especially concerning safety issues)!!! But comparing it like saying: "Africa is to Spain, like Spain to the Rest of Europe", dude!!! Spain is as safe as the rest of Europe. And Sevilla is as good as the other european places. What? No Directs? It's even not part of a controllers job! But they do it! Not lately, ok, and that makes acontroller a bad controller? Pretty superficial thought, don't you think? (And those things happen in central, northern, and western Europe as well, sometimes more often, sometimes less, but it does, and we know it!)
I am sure there is always lots to improve, and so all in northern Europe as well, oh yes! But aren't they doing their job? They do, and good! Oh yes!
The point is just that they don't give directs. So what?! They are doing their job! That's why they are bad controllers? NO! We are bad pilots because we complain about BS. We are supposed to fly the way its supposed to be, but we get shortcuts, good for everybody, and we feel better, because we got there earlier! Damn, we are o good, ain't we?! And we even finish our duty earlier, yeah! And when we don't get them, suddenly it's because the controllers are bad! Let's do our job, gents! Oh man, c'mon guys! We need to take our head out of our butt!!! (And yes, me included, most of us!!!) Seriously!

[shack]

Alfredo tp----- I do not think that Wing Commander Fowler is going to agree with you!!

[Alfredo tp]

Well, I hope he is not(!) going to agree with me, otherwise there is no sense of this forum. If he agrees with me, then he loses his opinion, and my opinion wouldn't be just mine anymore. (Sounds weird, I know...)
Of course I agree to some extend with him, and even for me it's a pain not to get a direct, when I am up there, and there is not much traffic, etc. around, clear sky, and so on. But that just doesn't mean that any controller is a dumb a$$. They look for theirs, as we look for ours, but we still have to respect each other, and it's not that they are not doing their job (which is not(!) saving gas for the airline company for example!).
We just have to conscious about what is our and their job, and rules, and bla bla bla, and what are kinda favors! If someone just doesn't want to respect and comprehend the others, than (s)he is just selfish, and other things.
So much for professionalism, yup.
Well, anyway, if someone doesn't like the other's job, he can call up after landing, or make a complaint, to Eurocontrol, to the controller's 'base', and to his own company. Or maybe switching seats for a while helps.

[bullet190]

I tend not to ask for direct routings unless I really need them.
If it's something like......."I'm trying to get back before an airfield closing time which could result in a diversion and 100+ displaced passengers" then I'll ask for as much as I can get away with - generally when ATC are aware of the problem they are very helpful.

It doesn't feel right to constantly ask for direct routings, if it's given then great, if not then we fly the route we're planned for. One thing that I will always consider is how busy ATC are at the time. By asking for a direct routing in a busy airspace it might finally be the straw that breaks the camel's back - if ATC make a mistake because of it well.... 'it's could possibly be me and my passengers who will pay the most for it'.

One thing that does annoy me though is when I'm planned to cruise at say FL370 from Malaga and are given FL310 until leaving Madrid ATC, that's a lot of extra fuel that is not planned for. I'm not sure if it's my company's fault or ATC's but someone must know this info. BEFORE the ETD and it would be safer to receive it before we decide on the fuel !

[Kiltie]

I share Bullet190's opinion. I am pestered constantly by FOs wanting to ask for direct routings for no pressing reason. We have a published flight plan and I always fly it unless the controller offers something different. It's not my place in the scheme of good manners and protocol to ask for shortcuts.

B190 what you refer to is commonplace.... (FL310 northbound until out of MAD airspace).... with which CFMU have no doubt made your company aware with their various CTOT slots; file an internal report and your Nav or Perf manager should be able to default your plog to refelect the lower level in future.

Yes I can read WCF (that'll be concern and not sarcasm I assume?), but having had some friends have a look at this thread to reassure me I wasn't going mad, we all find your prose very difficult to understand. Your writing style seems to have been influenced so much by your anger it doesn't flow well and is difficult to follow. If you had made clear reference to what you were referring to with your sentence beginning "FOR THE LAST TIME......" I don't think my confusion would have ensued.

[act700]

Radar,

[QUOTE]
There are at my airport, stopping those pesky vehicles from infringing the runway or doing something on the taxiway or apron that they shouldn't be doing!![QUOTE]

that's not what I was talking about; rather, when airplanes and airlines "cease" to be, completely! As in the Tempelhof deal, to use the latest example.
Those cars can "have" the runways as much as they want, now! (sadly)

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Kiltie:

I replicate for the very last time the part you and your friends found difficult to comprehend.........

Oh and will the idiot who started this whole "failed atco wannabe / failed pilot wannabe" thing please own up to it (if you have the brass) as I'm now getting hate mail from people hehe! Mods can you find that post please?

FOR THE LAST TIME I REPEAT - SOMEONE SUGGESTED I MIGHT BE A FAILED ATCO WANNABE WHICH I REPLIED TO IN KIND!!!!

Please tell me how I could have made that clearer????? What worries me is that you are clearly a native english speaker!

If you want an even better understanding I think (even tho its now heavily modded) that by reading the entire thread you and your friends may have finally got the picture no? I've had to sooth the "pain" I've inflicted on you sensetive atco's several times already.

Shack:

Welcome out of the "closet". Is THAT your biggest stone? Apology accepted!

[bullet190]

B190 what you refer to is commonplace.... (FL310 northbound until out of MAD airspace).... with which CFMU have no doubt made your company aware with their various CTOT slots; file an internal report and your Nav or Perf manager should be able to default your plog to refelect the lower level in future.

Kiltie, thanks for the advise but I have already been down that road, spoke to our flight planning dept. etc over a year ago concerning this. We now have a blanket 'low level restriction' through Madrid on the plogs, even if it doesn't happen all the time.
The point is though....... why do they accept a flight plan at FL370 when it's common place to get much lower than this ? Flight planning is exactly that - to help you plan for the flight and decide the right fuel.

[Alfredo tp]

I personally see that the airspaces got too crowded for the amount of traffic we have nowadays. It might have worked some time ago, but seems like only the aviation all and around has been renewed, with exception of airspace flows. Maybe they should rethink/redo/reorganize some things on that. I mean, its like a photoshop. It only focused on the films, etc., but never adapted to the digital cams nor to the memory cards... it soon will go down (well, maybe already did), and so with the airways, airflow management, etc. But nor the pilots, nor the controllers can do sh!t about, I assume that it's Eurocontrol, FAA, JAA, and so on, to rethink it. It's their job, isn't it. The problem I see is, the same as usual: those who are in charge of those things seem to have little (or no) experience in those real world scenarios, so they most likely don't know about the everyday 'problems'. And if someone tells them, it really doesn't come over. I wished those guys would be composed of retired/actual controllers, pilots, etc. (I know, utopia)
Personally I think it starts getting a little absurd of some comments I read, and there is no need to be harsh, so better let's come up with ideas how we can make those people in charge (to call it like that) know, what really is happening/what to 'redo'!?!? Ideas, suggestions? Anyone?

[Kiltie]

WCF, you're right to worry that I am a native English speaker!

[A-3TWENTY]

For those really nice guys !!!

Are you guys upset because the controllers in Spain don`t give you directs???

So I will tell you : They don`t give you directs to keep the salary that pilots had in the past , but don`t have anymore because pilots are nice guys. Instead of beeing complaining about decent conditions they are worried about saving 2 minutes to their companies.

Just for your information , salaries above 10K EUROS ARE NORMAL!!!!!!! And with extra time , instruction ,etc. , may reach 20K !!!!!

So , instead of criticizing people who still have dignity , stop 2 minutes and think. Eyes closed.

I`m sure that after this two minutes you will be ashamed of yourself and the class you belong to.



A-3TWENTY

PS : I`m not a native english speaker , so if you found some mistakes, and you are one of those english teachers who come to this forum , print my post and make a picture to your room.

[Alfredo tp]

A-3T, that was short and nice, LOL but so true as well!
I smiled with what you said in your PS hahaha! (Yup, I am not native english speaker neither, so it was funny, at least to me)

[Wing Commander Fowler]

A3Twenty

Err.......... I have no idea`where to start! Congratulations though - your english IS better than my swahili!

Doesn't it make a nice change though to hear of someone who objects to waste?

[10W]

The very first Pilot vs ATCO willy waving comment in any form which I can find evidence of was from the thread starter in Post #3

Like just because he's a frustrated failed pilot perhaps??? That'll be ok then would it?

There are no deleted messages prior to that, except one from the thread starter himself which is an abbreviated version of Post #3. Deleted posts are kept on PPRuNe, available for Mods to view should they wish to do so. They are only hidden from public view when deleted. There are no other deleted posts I can assure you.

The only other possibility is that Post #2 was edited. Or was it ?

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Thank you for the clarification 10 west. My best guess then was an editing. My own attempt to smoke him out hasn't worked so may we now put this side of things to rest?

[1985]

The only other possibility is that Post #2 was edited. Or was it ?

My best guess then was an editing. My own attempt to smoke him out hasn't worked so may we now put this side of things to rest?

No we can't as you are accusing me of something that i didn't write. You don't need to smoke me out as i NEVER wrote it. You obviously in your angry "i can't get a direct!" dummy throwing frenzy saw something that you wanted to see.

I've tried very hard to not to make it into a willy waving contest but some people are impossible...

[anotherthing]

1985

Not only are some people impossible, quite often they are never wrong... in their eyes.

Still waiting for proof of organised industrial action - bearing in mind Gulfstreamaviator states he still receives shortcuts.

Does anyone honestly think that controllers are daft enough to think that making an aircraft fly its flight planned route is an effective method of industrial action? It has no impact on Flow or anything... in fact it might even improve flow if shortcuts aren't given.

WCF - you need not answer - we already know your opinion of Spanish Controllers from post number 28 where you mention gene pools... obviously that outburst was in response to a 'deleted' or 'edited' post from a Spaniard.

Also, from post number 1

...and the only direct "victims" of this action are the Airlines who are having to pay more now for fuel. How is that going to help their cause?

It's not difficult... If this was some form of action and not just a perception, then basic business sense would say that as you are a customer and you are having to pay more for fuel, you would complain to the service provider.

The service provider could ask controllers to give shortcuts (not going to happen though because that is not what ATC is about) or it could cave in to the ATCOs demands.

However as already stated, I doubt very much if controllers would do this as the chances of success would be limited. After all, even the service provider could tell you, the customer, that a shorcut is a perk not a right and there would not be a thing the customer could do about that fact.

My best guess then was an editing. My own attempt to smoke him out hasn't worked so may we now put this side of things to rest?

You're talking about the first three posts in the thread, two of them yours. You cannot really expect people to believe that you couldn't remember whether there were two replies to your initial post, or just one before you made post number three???

There's only 30 minutes between the first post and the third post being published!!!

And the way PPruNe works is that the time of your post as shown on the thread is the time that you press the reply button and start typing - not the time it is submitted.

Therefore given time for typing your initial post and for 1985 to find it, read it, reply and then you to do the same on your next post, we are talking in the region of 20 minutes max!!! That's a very poor memory, especially for an aviator

Maybe we should just

put this side of things to rest?

for your sake as you are the one who has been 'smoked out'.

Note the system generated edited message below as well...

[Wing Commander Fowler]

1985:

I didn't say it was you. You seem to have adopted the blame though........

1985 and Anotherthing:

You pair are a little like Stadler and Waldorf - you only come out together. I'm starting to wonder whether we're not dealing with a schizophrenic here

[Alfredo tp]

*takes popcorn and soda*
Hmmm, seeing that some peeps just don't want to see reality, this threat is starting to get even more interesting!
Just kidding...
But still, I think everybody has seen the point, and understood it, isn't it? Yup yup yup!

(Mods, I think there is no more point of wasting server capacity, as for me you can close up this threat! *just a suggestion based on personal opinion*LOL*)

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Alfredo - I'm thinking of deleting it myself actually! The world's not ready for me yet.........

To infinity and beyond!