Scottish - Why is it...
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Scottish - Why is it...
Chaps and Chapesses - can you tell me why Scottish are so different to the rest of the UK/Europe?
1. Descents - if you sneak up on EGPF/H or D from the south have to start your descent a fuel wasting 100 miles or so before you want to. And then, when close in you are kept above an ideal profile. The same applies, I'm told because of Scottish, when you go to EGNT and EGNV. The Germans do it as well, but they have a bit more traffic.
2. What do I do with the information of "threshold elevation" and how do I apply it? If somebody rushed out and changed it fifty feet or so overnight, I probably wouldn't notice.
3. (EGPF here) What is wet? Given a bone dry runway, they are regularly reporting WET WET WET. Why? We need to be able to trust ATC and crying wolf to cover your six is not helpful.
4. When departing and going south, why can't we go direct, outside controlled airpsace with one of these new fangled Deconfliction Services?
5. And thank you to the lovely lady who gave us direct to EGPD from the middle of the North Sea- I'll not say when less I get her into trouble.
I've already put my helmet and body armour
on but I would like to know 
.
PM
1. Descents - if you sneak up on EGPF/H or D from the south have to start your descent a fuel wasting 100 miles or so before you want to. And then, when close in you are kept above an ideal profile. The same applies, I'm told because of Scottish, when you go to EGNT and EGNV. The Germans do it as well, but they have a bit more traffic.
2. What do I do with the information of "threshold elevation" and how do I apply it? If somebody rushed out and changed it fifty feet or so overnight, I probably wouldn't notice.
3. (EGPF here) What is wet? Given a bone dry runway, they are regularly reporting WET WET WET. Why? We need to be able to trust ATC and crying wolf to cover your six is not helpful.
4. When departing and going south, why can't we go direct, outside controlled airpsace with one of these new fangled Deconfliction Services?
5. And thank you to the lovely lady who gave us direct to EGPD from the middle of the North Sea- I'll not say when less I get her into trouble.
I've already put my helmet and body armour
on but I would like to know .PM
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3. (EGPF here) What is wet? Given a bone dry runway, they are regularly reporting WET WET WET. Why? We need to be able to trust ATC and crying wolf to cover your six is not helpful.
4. When departing and going south, why can't we go direct, outside controlled airpsace with one of these new fangled Deconfliction Services?
There might be shiny new ATSOCAS to use but as they say 'you can't polish a turd' and the military still regularly play outside CAS in the Scottish FIR. Need I say any more?
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1. Pay a visit to scottish It all becomes obvious when they plug you into a sector for what seems like 10mins but turns into 2 hours.
2. That should have stopped but the more mature controllers still give it. It links back to the days when some commercial ops still used QFE for approaches. If thats the only thing that winds you up, well life is to short.
3. Because they can't change it until they do a runway inspection. Knock a couple out of the sequence for a runway inspection to prove that the runway is safer than what is being reported. Fark that keep the aircraft moving please.
4. I sort of understand the reason. It can cause workload problems further south. Say you going GLA down to Filton. If you go via airways everything is setup with standing agreements no phone calls. If you go outside you double the number of agency's you have to talk to and it seems there is a hellva lot more work involved giving you what you want. I only did it once felt quite guilty about the extra work load it caused the controllers for all of 5 mins difference.
If you are going to Blackpool or Liverpool I have never had a problem with them cutting you loose outside from NGL its only when your going to cause grief all down the country they keep you inside.
5. Completely normal ops from Scottish when they can they give you direct to where ever you want. SUM, INV,ABZ, WIK. To anywhere on the West coast of Norway I have never done my flight planned route always been given direct sometimes for 400+ miles. And once with stonking head winds we got direct to Norwich from the NOR FIR border for which I am eternally grateful for as if they hadn't jigged it up for us it would have turned the day into one almighty cluster
.
2. That should have stopped but the more mature controllers still give it. It links back to the days when some commercial ops still used QFE for approaches. If thats the only thing that winds you up, well life is to short.
3. Because they can't change it until they do a runway inspection. Knock a couple out of the sequence for a runway inspection to prove that the runway is safer than what is being reported. Fark that keep the aircraft moving please.
4. I sort of understand the reason. It can cause workload problems further south. Say you going GLA down to Filton. If you go via airways everything is setup with standing agreements no phone calls. If you go outside you double the number of agency's you have to talk to and it seems there is a hellva lot more work involved giving you what you want. I only did it once felt quite guilty about the extra work load it caused the controllers for all of 5 mins difference.
If you are going to Blackpool or Liverpool I have never had a problem with them cutting you loose outside from NGL its only when your going to cause grief all down the country they keep you inside.
5. Completely normal ops from Scottish when they can they give you direct to where ever you want. SUM, INV,ABZ, WIK. To anywhere on the West coast of Norway I have never done my flight planned route always been given direct sometimes for 400+ miles. And once with stonking head winds we got direct to Norwich from the NOR FIR border for which I am eternally grateful for as if they hadn't jigged it up for us it would have turned the day into one almighty cluster
.
Last edited by mad_jock; 26th Sep 2009 at 17:57.
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1. Descents - if you sneak up on EGPF/H or D from the south have to start your descent a fuel wasting 100 miles or so before you want to. And then, when close in you are kept above an ideal profile.
You are cleared down to FL260 to clear you out of the way of crossing traffic coming across from NATEB and freeing up capacity for that traffic in the sector which overlies MARGO. As Rolaand says, there are others in the sky, here's a hankie
I've even seen quite a few aircraft being given unrestricted descents via MARGO who then cross MARGO below FL260 ... how does that work then if the profile is wrong by 100 miles ?
can you tell me why Scottish are so different to the rest of the UK/Europe?
The same applies, I'm told because of Scottish, when you go to EGNT and EGNV. The Germans do it as well, but they have a bit more traffic.
2. What do I do with the information of "threshold elevation" and how do I apply it? If somebody rushed out and changed it fifty feet or so overnight, I probably wouldn't notice.
4. When departing and going south, why can't we go direct, outside controlled airpsace with one of these new fangled Deconfliction Services?
Above FL195 outside the published route structure, you're not our priority, which is traffic inside the ATS routes. With the military and other users operating in the off route Class C autonomously (pseudo Class G at times), why would we give a service to you which might impact on the service we give to our core users ? If workload and the traffic situation permits, then we will do what we can, but the problem also arises of what happens to you when you reach the edge of our area of responsibility. Manchester or London will not normally give you a service outside 'CAS', and unless you have agreed a service with the military beforehand, the mil are most likely not going to touch you with a barge pole either. You can't continue in the Class C without an ATC agency so you're going to cause us workload whilst we try and plead with someone to work you, or clear you back down to below FL195 and dump you to the Info guys and gals. Again, much of this is in the AIP so you should be aware of the options and choosing them appropriately.
5. And thank you to the lovely lady who gave us direct to EGPD from the middle of the North Sea- I'll not say when less I get her into trouble.
It's the normal operation for most controllers in Scottish to offer directs where traffic, airspace, military activity, and workload permit. It happens often, as Mad Jock alludes to, particularly above FL245.It's good that pilots come and ask questions about our airspace and procedures, which we can then explain. But if you're going to have a rant, at least come armed with having done a bit of research first
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Regarding direct routes over the sea to the east of the UK mainland, if you have filed to remain in CAS, the onus is very much on YOU to ask us what service we could provide below FL245/195.
Subject to workload in what can involve 2 or 3 Scottish sectors and the airfield, you will invariably get the route but NOT always a deconfliction service.
If you want to FILE direct then do so, but please take into account that we MAY limit UK FIS services and kindly do not forget to plan AROUND active Danger Areas and MDAs.
You would be amazed at the number of requests we get for directs through active MDAs, I wonder if anyone reads EN ROUTE Notams.
There are NO level restrictions into Newcastle or Durham from Scottish airspace AT ALL.
As my neighbour, 10W says, the FL260 restrictions at MARGO/NATEB for Scottish TMA airfields, FOYLE for EGPE and GRICE for EGPD are there for very good reasons.
They are roughly where 3 sectors meet, so to avoid having to co-ordinate ALL descents we have an agreed level procedure.
ALL of the FL260 restrictions ARE relaxed when traffic permits.
Subject to workload in what can involve 2 or 3 Scottish sectors and the airfield, you will invariably get the route but NOT always a deconfliction service.
If you want to FILE direct then do so, but please take into account that we MAY limit UK FIS services and kindly do not forget to plan AROUND active Danger Areas and MDAs.
You would be amazed at the number of requests we get for directs through active MDAs, I wonder if anyone reads EN ROUTE Notams.
There are NO level restrictions into Newcastle or Durham from Scottish airspace AT ALL.
As my neighbour, 10W says, the FL260 restrictions at MARGO/NATEB for Scottish TMA airfields, FOYLE for EGPE and GRICE for EGPD are there for very good reasons.
They are roughly where 3 sectors meet, so to avoid having to co-ordinate ALL descents we have an agreed level procedure.
ALL of the FL260 restrictions ARE relaxed when traffic permits.
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Regards runway inspection to change the runway condition, if an aircraft can give you a braking action report, can they not also give you a surface condition report to act upon?
I understand there must be a regulation in the UK to say that the inspection must be carried out, but I know in Oz it is up to the TWR controller to make the assessment though whatever means he/she can. Binos, inspection, pilot report and so on. Is this not the case in the UK?
Cheers,
NFR.
I understand there must be a regulation in the UK to say that the inspection must be carried out, but I know in Oz it is up to the TWR controller to make the assessment though whatever means he/she can. Binos, inspection, pilot report and so on. Is this not the case in the UK?
Cheers,
NFR.
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Interesting topic, especially as I am a pilot based in EDI and fly in-and out of Scottish airspace nearly daily.
Everyone I've flown with knows that we'll be offered no restrictions at MARGO when it's available and to anticipate Alt 7000' (FL70 equiv) at the entry fix TARTN into EDI. The FL260 restriction at Margo is no real problem for descent planning's. Yes it's a wee bit early but that's life. We'll often see crossing traffic (usually the big boys) above MARGO heading NW/SE.
When departing EDI/GLA going south we'll get often offered direct LANAK when passing 4000'. Now that makes one smile. Cheers guys/girls!
Here's a question. What the reason behind the DCS4C/3D departure from EDI that takes you so far west towards Glasgow before heading down south? (at MAVIX) Why not head south earlier towards DCS?
We know that if we're not offered a Direct routing we can ask for one when passing FL100. (if traffic permits etc etc) I must admit I enjoy flying in the Scottish sectors.
If you want to open a can of worms, talk about the French or Spanish controllers/sectors. Not the Scottish.
It's appreciated, greetz from the flightdeck
Everyone I've flown with knows that we'll be offered no restrictions at MARGO when it's available and to anticipate Alt 7000' (FL70 equiv) at the entry fix TARTN into EDI. The FL260 restriction at Margo is no real problem for descent planning's. Yes it's a wee bit early but that's life. We'll often see crossing traffic (usually the big boys) above MARGO heading NW/SE.
When departing EDI/GLA going south we'll get often offered direct LANAK when passing 4000'. Now that makes one smile. Cheers guys/girls!
Here's a question. What the reason behind the DCS4C/3D departure from EDI that takes you so far west towards Glasgow before heading down south? (at MAVIX) Why not head south earlier towards DCS?
We know that if we're not offered a Direct routing we can ask for one when passing FL100. (if traffic permits etc etc) I must admit I enjoy flying in the Scottish sectors.
If you want to open a can of worms, talk about the French or Spanish controllers/sectors. Not the Scottish.
It's appreciated, greetz from the flightdeck
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I'm glad I put my armour on. 10W and tarnish26 show that it's not worth trying to find out why things happen in the way that they do - because they appear to be part of the problem. And while we are here, I do read NOTAMS and have a reasonable understanding from the AIP of what is possible - but reality appears to be different. But I don't think I'll pay a visit to Scottish because I know I'm not welcome. I know I'm only a customer/user so I 'm very sorry for rattling your chains. You guys have answered my questions brilliantly. Thank you - you have made another friend, you'll be next to Security on my Christmas card list.
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Piltdown...
Why would you not be welcome...I to am a customer and one well happy with the service they provide....with your head up your arse as you appear to have I would suggest you just stick to playing with your toy trains!!!!
But I don't think I'll pay a visit to Scottish because I know I'm not welcome. I know I'm only a customer/user so I 'm very sorry for rattling your chains.
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But I don't think I'll pay a visit to Scottish because I know I'm not welcome
It's well worth the trip.
The only thing you will need to worry about is if they do like you and decide to show you the bars of Ayr.
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DutchBird-755.
The answer to the DCS questions is it is primarily to get you away from the Glasgow inbounds coming up through Talla/Lanak. Scottish are also positioning traffic going southbound dependent on the destination/ routing within the London FIR. Finally, turning too early will bring you back in to conflict with the Turboprops and pistons on the Talla departures.
Hope that helps.
The answer to the DCS questions is it is primarily to get you away from the Glasgow inbounds coming up through Talla/Lanak. Scottish are also positioning traffic going southbound dependent on the destination/ routing within the London FIR. Finally, turning too early will bring you back in to conflict with the Turboprops and pistons on the Talla departures.
Hope that helps.
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Could someone possibly PM me with the info on visiting Scottish? I'm floating around the PIK area for the next few days and always fancied a trip in there!
Cheers in advance
Cheers in advance
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Piltdown Man-Not that any of us at scottish are the sensitive types but if your initial post had been a reasonable question rather than a patronising dig that implied that we were providing you with a sh!t service then you would have got some friendlier replies
Take a leaf out of dutchbird 757's book. Ask a reasonable question and reasonable answer will be forthcoming.
And here it is-We have an early left turn procedure from EGPF runway23 that allows us to turn you once you pass 4000ft or GOW5dme,whichever is the later.The point you are normally routed to is LAKEY, which is the boundary of Scottish and London airspace when you route UN615 to the south.
The EGPH DCS SIDs take you so far west to avoid the EGPF inbound traffic routeing towards the LANAK hold from the south and south east. Any left turn for any traffic on the DCS departures from EGPH requires co-ordination with at least one other sector,so if it's busy then I'm afraid the direct routes are not available off EGPH
Take a leaf out of dutchbird 757's book. Ask a reasonable question and reasonable answer will be forthcoming.
And here it is-We have an early left turn procedure from EGPF runway23 that allows us to turn you once you pass 4000ft or GOW5dme,whichever is the later.The point you are normally routed to is LAKEY, which is the boundary of Scottish and London airspace when you route UN615 to the south.
The EGPH DCS SIDs take you so far west to avoid the EGPF inbound traffic routeing towards the LANAK hold from the south and south east. Any left turn for any traffic on the DCS departures from EGPH requires co-ordination with at least one other sector,so if it's busy then I'm afraid the direct routes are not available off EGPH
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rolaand,
"requires co-ordination with at least one other sector".
No worries, just get the 'P' controller* to make a telephone call, (after all you folks did invent the telephone, didn't you)?
*"Er, Houston we have a problem"
"requires co-ordination with at least one other sector".
No worries, just get the 'P' controller* to make a telephone call, (after all you folks did invent the telephone, didn't you)?
*"Er, Houston we have a problem"
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3. Because they can't change it until they do a runway inspection. Knock a couple out of the sequence for a runway inspection to prove that the runway is safer than what is being reported. Fark that keep the aircraft moving please.
Therefore I would not considder "Fark that keep the aircraft moving please." to be good practice.
There are also the people who do the paperwork based on the dry figures because that is what they see but when they check the ATIS, they have to start again!! - a clear case of the Fark'n aircraft not moving!!
Not to mention that the person asking stated "bone dry". I generally find that wet runways go through a period of being "damp" before being "bone dry". Since damp is not reported as wet, and Glasgow rarely suffers from that hot hair-drier wind that in other places can dry runways from wet to bone dry in as little as 20 minutes, it would be reasonable to say that a check is long overdue.
4. When departing and going south, why can't we go direct, outside controlled airpsace with one of these new fangled Deconfliction Services?