Evicted ATC student not giving up hope... or should I?
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Evicted ATC student not giving up hope... or should I?
Hi everyone.
Looking for some advice on how you think I should proceed.
I have ratings with in ADI and APS from ATC academy Entry Point North, in Malmoe, Sweden.
Started my OJT in august 2008.
Sadly, me and the two other students at the airport were all fired on the same day and for the same reason: not reached expected level of achievement within the time limit. I had 344 hours in position, the other two around 400 hours. An ATCO, with 8 years of experience, on transfer training, started simultaneously as us, and he used around 450 hours before completed. I had two phase-reports saying good/great progress. The last one was my termination. I had no extra training, no focus on not performing to expected level, well not until 13 days before termination.
So I was one month away of completion when I was evicted. I have 2 years of excessive training behind me.
I am highly motivated. I still hold a valid student ATC license, a valid medical certificate and a English proficiency endorsement. My dream is still to become an ATCO.
How can I go about doing this?
Do you know of someone in the same situation who have succeeded?
Do you know of a TWR and/or APP unit with lack of personnel whom I could contact?
Please PM me with any information you think could be of value.
I have an updated CV if interested.
Looking for some advice on how you think I should proceed.
I have ratings with in ADI and APS from ATC academy Entry Point North, in Malmoe, Sweden.
Started my OJT in august 2008.
Sadly, me and the two other students at the airport were all fired on the same day and for the same reason: not reached expected level of achievement within the time limit. I had 344 hours in position, the other two around 400 hours. An ATCO, with 8 years of experience, on transfer training, started simultaneously as us, and he used around 450 hours before completed. I had two phase-reports saying good/great progress. The last one was my termination. I had no extra training, no focus on not performing to expected level, well not until 13 days before termination.
So I was one month away of completion when I was evicted. I have 2 years of excessive training behind me.
I am highly motivated. I still hold a valid student ATC license, a valid medical certificate and a English proficiency endorsement. My dream is still to become an ATCO.
How can I go about doing this?
Do you know of someone in the same situation who have succeeded?
Do you know of a TWR and/or APP unit with lack of personnel whom I could contact?
Please PM me with any information you think could be of value.
I have an updated CV if interested.
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Unfortunately, unfair treatment of trainees is not unheard of in ATC. You have my sympathy.
Do you have a JAA licence? If so, you may have a fighting chance of finding work outside Sweden, and you should have the right to work anywhere in the EU. The UK, for example, has many airfields for which ATC is provided by either by the airport directly or by contracting companies such as Serco, rather than by NATS. There may be similar opportunites in Sweden and elsewhere. Your best bet is to hit Google to find out which ATS providers do the ATC at small and medium sized airports, and find their contact details. Don't be afraid to phone around and ask where to send a CV! Most employers are happy to see initiative in potential staff.
If you can validate at a small/medium airport, and preferably give them a few years of your services after validation, you will most likely then be able to apply for vacancies at major airports with the large, national ATS providers.
Do you have a JAA licence? If so, you may have a fighting chance of finding work outside Sweden, and you should have the right to work anywhere in the EU. The UK, for example, has many airfields for which ATC is provided by either by the airport directly or by contracting companies such as Serco, rather than by NATS. There may be similar opportunites in Sweden and elsewhere. Your best bet is to hit Google to find out which ATS providers do the ATC at small and medium sized airports, and find their contact details. Don't be afraid to phone around and ask where to send a CV! Most employers are happy to see initiative in potential staff.
If you can validate at a small/medium airport, and preferably give them a few years of your services after validation, you will most likely then be able to apply for vacancies at major airports with the large, national ATS providers.
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My license is issued by CAA of Norway. It says "issued in accordance with ICAO and ECAC guidelines" ... "lssued in accordance with the provisions of the European Manual of Personnel Licensing - Air traffic Controllers."
Is this bad? Since its not JAA?
Is this bad? Since its not JAA?
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Your licence should be ok,since it's CCC training that now going on,and all licences within EU are recognized by other EU states,and I think it's not anymore JAA,but EASA...( even if it's written CAA, they are all issued by national CAA's)
in my opinion you can give it a go in Scandinavian countries,since language should not be a problem for you...
and I think,if they really failed you,just because, other ANSP's will be glad to take new SATCO for free, I mean not spending money on training,apart from OJT
in my opinion you can give it a go in Scandinavian countries,since language should not be a problem for you...
and I think,if they really failed you,just because, other ANSP's will be glad to take new SATCO for free, I mean not spending money on training,apart from OJT
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I know that all your training to date has been focused on TWR/APP, but it would appea you are going to have to leave Sweden to pursue a career in ATC, have you considered Eurocontrol?
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Good news on my certificate then. I really hope there are someone willing to accept me in OJT. I will use this week to call around the world. I am definitely willing to leave scandinavia and also willing to commit several years after validation.
Any good advice on which AD I can start with? Any towers in dire need of personnel?
Any good advice on which AD I can start with? Any towers in dire need of personnel?
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Methosmen,
You might be able to get in at Skyguide-Swiss ATC provider but I think you would have to start all over again.
Check on the www.skyguide.ch find some contact and phone and explain.
Here they need a lot of people so you never know.
If you want feel free to contact me and I might be able to find some contact for you.
Take care and good luck.
Gianni
You might be able to get in at Skyguide-Swiss ATC provider but I think you would have to start all over again.
Check on the www.skyguide.ch find some contact and phone and explain.
Here they need a lot of people so you never know.
If you want feel free to contact me and I might be able to find some contact for you.
Take care and good luck.
Gianni
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Only English is mandatory,that is as far as I know.
That might change in the future but for now it is like this.
Good luck.
As far as I know they have classes of students per year usually january-march and one more by the end of the year.
You should check,maybe you get lucky.
All the best.
Gianni
That might change in the future but for now it is like this.
Good luck.
As far as I know they have classes of students per year usually january-march and one more by the end of the year.
You should check,maybe you get lucky.
All the best.
Gianni
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methosman: Are you sure you have what it takes? I have seen trainees that believed the've got it, but didn't. It is not unheard of that when things get tough, the mind protects you and puts you in denial. I'm not saying it's the case here. I hope you have had the time to think it through.
I'm not sure your student licence is valid outside Norway/Sweden. Since your ANSP probably paid for the school, they won't let other ANSPs steal their students.
I'm not sure your student licence is valid outside Norway/Sweden. Since your ANSP probably paid for the school, they won't let other ANSPs steal their students.
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supraspinatus
All through the academy I was told to be "an ATC in spe" and "definitely ATC material". At OJT I received three phase reports, the first said that I was well over expected level", next one said I was on expected level and had good progression. Last one said I was underachieving in relation to the time frame set to be used. As mentioned before the unit training program says 290 hours in position is enough. This unit has not had any fresh students for 5-6 years. The one they had back then used well over 290 hours. Though nobody from the unit will supply us with the documentation for this. Comparing movements from 2003 till 2008 there is a 30%(!) increase in traffic.
I received no warnings until 10 days before they kicked us out. I got no "extra training" to even try to get to that level of achievement they wanted us at. What I don't understand is; how do they expect us to be as good or better than an ATCO with 8 years previous experience? The fact that he used around 450 hours should be some sort of guideline, or am I wrong?
Also we were three students there. All with individual strengths and weaknesses, even so, in our final report we are all fired for being too slow.
I look around to other students at other airports and I see their getting twice the amount of time of what the training program states. Some get extra focus on this and this. Delayed validation day with several months due their not on schedule. I can't but feel that I've drawn the shortest stick here.
I might never find out if I have it or not. Maybe I was fired for the right reasons, I just know it didn't happened the right way.
I know I sound bitter and angry, and truth is I am. I've wanted this job since I was 15 and now it looks as though that dream is going down the tube.
Regarding my certificate. School I went to was Entry Point North, Entry Point North - Go north for take off. Its ICAO and EUROCONTROL based so I don't see why they shouldnt accept it abroad. We were told upon completion on APS that the certificate was international. Though I see now that even if it so, it is hard to have any ANSP accept you.
All through the academy I was told to be "an ATC in spe" and "definitely ATC material". At OJT I received three phase reports, the first said that I was well over expected level", next one said I was on expected level and had good progression. Last one said I was underachieving in relation to the time frame set to be used. As mentioned before the unit training program says 290 hours in position is enough. This unit has not had any fresh students for 5-6 years. The one they had back then used well over 290 hours. Though nobody from the unit will supply us with the documentation for this. Comparing movements from 2003 till 2008 there is a 30%(!) increase in traffic.
I received no warnings until 10 days before they kicked us out. I got no "extra training" to even try to get to that level of achievement they wanted us at. What I don't understand is; how do they expect us to be as good or better than an ATCO with 8 years previous experience? The fact that he used around 450 hours should be some sort of guideline, or am I wrong?
Also we were three students there. All with individual strengths and weaknesses, even so, in our final report we are all fired for being too slow.
I look around to other students at other airports and I see their getting twice the amount of time of what the training program states. Some get extra focus on this and this. Delayed validation day with several months due their not on schedule. I can't but feel that I've drawn the shortest stick here.
I might never find out if I have it or not. Maybe I was fired for the right reasons, I just know it didn't happened the right way.
I know I sound bitter and angry, and truth is I am. I've wanted this job since I was 15 and now it looks as though that dream is going down the tube.
Regarding my certificate. School I went to was Entry Point North, Entry Point North - Go north for take off. Its ICAO and EUROCONTROL based so I don't see why they shouldnt accept it abroad. We were told upon completion on APS that the certificate was international. Though I see now that even if it so, it is hard to have any ANSP accept you.
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Methosmen, although I feel your pain, there are always at least two sides to every story. In today's ATC world, when a student is 'terminated', the instructors usually have very, very valid reasons for their actions.
As opposed to methods and attitudes prevalent 20 or 30 years ago, 99% of today's instructors agonize over such a decision and try everything possible to help the trainee succeed. Having said that, instructors are human, and mistakes can occur.
Without wanting to give false hopes, you do have several things going for you. I assume you are young, ready to leave home and family and re-locate to just about anywhere in the world. You write about a burning desire to do this job. You have ratings from an academy. Combine this with a (never ending),world-wide shortage of controllers, and you may, as other posters have suggested, be able to re-cycle the last few pages of your brief ATC career and start afresh. That is, if it was meant to be. Best of luck.
As opposed to methods and attitudes prevalent 20 or 30 years ago, 99% of today's instructors agonize over such a decision and try everything possible to help the trainee succeed. Having said that, instructors are human, and mistakes can occur.
Without wanting to give false hopes, you do have several things going for you. I assume you are young, ready to leave home and family and re-locate to just about anywhere in the world. You write about a burning desire to do this job. You have ratings from an academy. Combine this with a (never ending),world-wide shortage of controllers, and you may, as other posters have suggested, be able to re-cycle the last few pages of your brief ATC career and start afresh. That is, if it was meant to be. Best of luck.
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Canoehead
Thank you for your input, I really appreciate it.
Of course I am well aware that there is two sides of a story. And I do agree that I was not ready within the time limits set by the unit. But I just don't think that all three of us students are underqualified. We all "made it" to the very end and then suddenly we weren't good enough.
And yes, we are prepared to give "everything" in order to validate. So far no luck though. Guess the world shortage of ATCO is not that big after all. Most towers ANSPs I've spoken to so far haven't needed anyone. And the UAE has a requirement of at least three years full time experience.
Are you aware of any countries/ANSPs/towers that are in need of ATCO(s)?
I will not even require pay until validation. Thats how badly I want this.
Have a wonderful day
-methosmen
Thank you for your input, I really appreciate it.
Of course I am well aware that there is two sides of a story. And I do agree that I was not ready within the time limits set by the unit. But I just don't think that all three of us students are underqualified. We all "made it" to the very end and then suddenly we weren't good enough.
And yes, we are prepared to give "everything" in order to validate. So far no luck though. Guess the world shortage of ATCO is not that big after all. Most towers ANSPs I've spoken to so far haven't needed anyone. And the UAE has a requirement of at least three years full time experience.
Are you aware of any countries/ANSPs/towers that are in need of ATCO(s)?
I will not even require pay until validation. Thats how badly I want this.
Have a wonderful day
-methosmen
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The standard where I come from 300hrs per sector is considered adequate. 300hrs TWR (GND/TWR/DLV) + 300 APP (ARR/DEP/PLN).
There is a required minimum and maximum which is +/- 10%
If the trainee/Atco is not ready at the maximum, normally they consider if the candidate has the potential to continue. There is a big difference between trainees and atcos with experience from smaller units.
I have heard stories of evicted trainees going abroad to get their validation. I've even heard of the former trainee coming back as an atco.
So, there is still hope
I remember being told that Avinor/Naviair is not happy with the education at EPN.
I heard that about half of the students failed when they startet their OJT. Is this true?
There is a required minimum and maximum which is +/- 10%
If the trainee/Atco is not ready at the maximum, normally they consider if the candidate has the potential to continue. There is a big difference between trainees and atcos with experience from smaller units.
I have heard stories of evicted trainees going abroad to get their validation. I've even heard of the former trainee coming back as an atco.
So, there is still hope
I remember being told that Avinor/Naviair is not happy with the education at EPN.
I heard that about half of the students failed when they startet their OJT. Is this true?
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Hi methosmen,
you could try the DFS in Germany. Actually they are looking for ready entries. I do not know if they will employ you, but asking won't cost you anything.
They will especially like this:
"I will not even require pay until validation. Thats how badly I want this."
you could try the DFS in Germany. Actually they are looking for ready entries. I do not know if they will employ you, but asking won't cost you anything.
They will especially like this:
"I will not even require pay until validation. Thats how badly I want this."
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MunichACC
Thanks for that tip. Am I required to be fluent in german for TWR/APP?
Actually, I just thought of something. At the academy I got rating in both ADI and APS, but the OJT I failed was only for ADI. So I havent tried or failed for APS. Does that change anything do you think? If I for instance apply for Approach only?
Thanks for that tip. Am I required to be fluent in german for TWR/APP?
Actually, I just thought of something. At the academy I got rating in both ADI and APS, but the OJT I failed was only for ADI. So I havent tried or failed for APS. Does that change anything do you think? If I for instance apply for Approach only?
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Yeah. Sorry, I forgot to mention it. You have to pass a german test. It is like the ICAO english appraisal but for german language. So a language level of at least 4 is mandatory before you start into the OJT.
But as far as I know you get german lessons during your time in the DFS academy.
But as far as I know you get german lessons during your time in the DFS academy.
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I have my basic german language skill from school (10 years ago now). But to say Im a ICAO level 4 is pushing it. I dont think language will be a big problem though, maybe a couple of months intensive course will get me there. I will definitely check with DFS