IAA SCP8 Offer
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IAA SCP8 Offer
Hi, i was today offered a place on the SCP8 student air traffic controller class starting in late October. My problem is I have a good secure job in the public service! I always wanted to get into aviation and would love to be an ATC. Has anybody any info on the IAA, would it be a wise move in this current economic climate to take the offer or stick with my job which I am happy in? Does anybody know the failure rate from SCP7, how many got their ratings? When finished training to you get offered a permanent contract or is it year by year contract? Thanks for the help
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surely such questions should have been asked before applying?
As a whole, ATC jobs are very safe, even now. The fact is the traffic levels are building again slowly.
The rest of the questions re contracts etc seem to me like you haven't really thought this career through - in which case I'd say stay with your public sector job. I can't give you any specific answers on the IAA, but again, I'd expect any ATC applicant to know the answer to the sort of questions you are asking for their particular ANSP.
It sounds as if you have applied on the off chance, and that you are now not sure what to do. If not 100% certain, then don't take the risk. ATC training requires 100% commitment and is not known for huge pass rates
As a whole, ATC jobs are very safe, even now. The fact is the traffic levels are building again slowly.
The rest of the questions re contracts etc seem to me like you haven't really thought this career through - in which case I'd say stay with your public sector job. I can't give you any specific answers on the IAA, but again, I'd expect any ATC applicant to know the answer to the sort of questions you are asking for their particular ANSP.
It sounds as if you have applied on the off chance, and that you are now not sure what to do. If not 100% certain, then don't take the risk. ATC training requires 100% commitment and is not known for huge pass rates
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My problem is I have a good secure job in the public service! I always wanted to get into aviation and would love to be an ATC.
ATC is a fantastic job and I wouldn't willingly swap it for any other occupation, but the training is very hard work as is the subsequent unit training, if you don't have the commitment you won't get through the college let alone validate at a unit.
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To Goatface and Another thing. The rumour floating around is that the new cadets are being offered positions for - get this - ZERO pay, ZERO allowances, ZERO rights, until such time as they check out on a sector!
The recruitment for SCP8 is coming from the pool that was constructed for SCP7. Anyone being offered a job now, was turned down 2 years ago!
Cut the guy some slack!
Maybe Underdog can confirm that this is the case.
In the present situation in Ireland, with unemployment tipping 10% and increasing. Why would anyone leave a secure job, to take up a voluntary position, with no guarantee of success, nor possibly of a job at the end of it!
The recruitment for SCP8 is coming from the pool that was constructed for SCP7. Anyone being offered a job now, was turned down 2 years ago!
Cut the guy some slack!
Maybe Underdog can confirm that this is the case.
In the present situation in Ireland, with unemployment tipping 10% and increasing. Why would anyone leave a secure job, to take up a voluntary position, with no guarantee of success, nor possibly of a job at the end of it!
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Thanks beamwidth, yes i applied in 2007 before i had any job and was just finished college. I would have taken it then, but from reading other sites there seems to be problems within the IAA and the unions. Yes they have readjusted the pay for training, job not guaranteed and training takes 2 1/2 years and then you have to repay 50000 training costs over the first 4 years you are working. I am just worried about what happened a few years ago when a whole class were let go after training. The job prospects in Ireland are terrible at the moment, with unemployment at 12% and rising. I know the failure rates are high but I would be confident of passing all the exams, but who can tell what happen in the next 3 years in aviation and will they still want SCP8 then?
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underdog,
thats a call only you can make mate. If you roll the dice, you could end up with a job to last your working life, but i dont know the job security aspects with regards to the IAA after training. If you like the job you're in, the maybe you should stay there until things improve in the economy. you could save some money to help you through the times when you do start to train. however you may never move and then be always wondering , what if i'd taken that job??
with regards to the paying back of training costs, it has been around in the aviation industry for a while, and it means that you can't just at the end of your training say thanks very much and bugger off somewhere else. they at least recover some of the cost of training. i'm surprised NATS haven't swung their new sky thinking towards this destination. maybe they could reinvest this money in funding the bloody pension properly. sorry i was dangerously close to stepping on my soapbox there.
tough call
thats a call only you can make mate. If you roll the dice, you could end up with a job to last your working life, but i dont know the job security aspects with regards to the IAA after training. If you like the job you're in, the maybe you should stay there until things improve in the economy. you could save some money to help you through the times when you do start to train. however you may never move and then be always wondering , what if i'd taken that job??
with regards to the paying back of training costs, it has been around in the aviation industry for a while, and it means that you can't just at the end of your training say thanks very much and bugger off somewhere else. they at least recover some of the cost of training. i'm surprised NATS haven't swung their new sky thinking towards this destination. maybe they could reinvest this money in funding the bloody pension properly. sorry i was dangerously close to stepping on my soapbox there.
tough call
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i'm surprised NATS haven't swung their new sky thinking towards this destination.
You and me both....we have had one ATCO just complete training and validate in the Tower .For the best reasons that controller has now resigned and a non NATS airfield gets all the benefit. We now have to start all over again...and who's to say that following completion of the next punters training THEY won't decide to go somewhere more in tune with their lifestyle.
Soul destroying for the watch,the OJTI's the whole training setup.
Bonding...it makes sense..whether it can be done though.....I dunno.
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Bonding...it makes sense..whether it can be done though.....I dunno.
This is what ATCOs voted for a few years ago, in order to preserve their earnings
Training is costing the company less than ever. Why the need of bonding ? Bonding would only reduce the interest of applicants.
"Join a World leader in air traffic management. For the first 3 years you'll be on a minimum wage, but if you leave after that, you have to pay us back more than your combined gross earnings of the past 3 years"
I can see that recruitment campaign going so well !!!
with regards to the paying back of training costs, it has been around in the aviation industry for a while,
An ATPL and a type rating paid by your employer are a very useful business card to go and chap the door of other employers. (Let's leave the recession aside for a moment). How many airlines operate in the UK alone ?
Moving to air traffic now, you got your Area Control licence from NATS. How many ACC air traffic providers can you go and apply to in the UK ???
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It is a huge risk and nobody can be sure if they will pass or not however I think the pass rates are higher there then anywhere else I've seen. The IAA are not to be trusted regarding contracts so get any legal document checked very carefully before you sign anything and don't forget they don't give a **** about you (as proven by the dumping of an entire SCP class a few years ago) and will treat you accordingly. It is a good job but go in with your eyes wide open...and as soon as you've paid everything back leave and work for someone who treats their staff better ;-)
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Moving to air traffic now, you got your Area Control licence from NATS. How many ACC air traffic providers can you go and apply to in the UK ???
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Beamwidth,
As an ATCO you'll understand the need for receiving all of the information when doing your job etc... Underdog didn't disclose the full facts of his application history - people can only comment on the information they have been given. If it's not a full and thorough brief, then you can't expect a fully balanced reply!!
The part about the state of aviation industry and prospect for ATCO employment was pretty generic, which leads people to answer generically
to other questions within the post.
I personally know of one person who joined NATS and got half way through training before resigning because they 'suddenly' realised they would have to work shifts when at a unit... to me, that lack of knowledge is unnaceptable in an applicant, especially when going for a job that requires precision and accuracy.
That said, now that the full story has emerged about the IAA etc and SPC7SPC8, then one can only sympathise with underdog.
Now armed with the full facts my advice would be to ask the following questions, only underdog can answer them -
Do you really enjoy your Public Sector job?
Is it a merely a job or a vocation?
What are the future prospects for it vis a vis promotion etc?
Are you financially stable enough to take no pay on until you pass the course?
Are you financially stable enough to spend some time on unemployment benefits if, heaven forbid, you fail the course and then have a few months jobs searching in the current financial climate?
Would you be able to go back to your old job easily enough if you failed the course (probably difficult in Public Sector)?
Is your passion for aviation large enough to overcome some of the problems in the above questions?
Finally beamwidth asks:
That's a risk that needs to be considered by the individual; plenty people have done it in other areas.
I know NATS would like to go down the route of self funding - the day they do will be a bad one, the pay cut that our students received not too long ago was bad enough.
Cut the guy some slack
As an ATCO you'll understand the need for receiving all of the information when doing your job etc... Underdog didn't disclose the full facts of his application history - people can only comment on the information they have been given. If it's not a full and thorough brief, then you can't expect a fully balanced reply!!
The part about the state of aviation industry and prospect for ATCO employment was pretty generic, which leads people to answer generically
to other questions within the post.
I personally know of one person who joined NATS and got half way through training before resigning because they 'suddenly' realised they would have to work shifts when at a unit... to me, that lack of knowledge is unnaceptable in an applicant, especially when going for a job that requires precision and accuracy.
That said, now that the full story has emerged about the IAA etc and SPC7SPC8, then one can only sympathise with underdog.
Now armed with the full facts my advice would be to ask the following questions, only underdog can answer them -
Do you really enjoy your Public Sector job?
Is it a merely a job or a vocation?
What are the future prospects for it vis a vis promotion etc?
Are you financially stable enough to take no pay on until you pass the course?
Are you financially stable enough to spend some time on unemployment benefits if, heaven forbid, you fail the course and then have a few months jobs searching in the current financial climate?
Would you be able to go back to your old job easily enough if you failed the course (probably difficult in Public Sector)?
Is your passion for aviation large enough to overcome some of the problems in the above questions?
Finally beamwidth asks:
In the present situation in Ireland, with unemployment tipping 10% and increasing. Why would anyone leave a secure job, to take up a voluntary position, with no guarantee of success, nor possibly of a job at the end of it!
I know NATS would like to go down the route of self funding - the day they do will be a bad one, the pay cut that our students received not too long ago was bad enough.
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Ok to bring this back on topic a bit.
The class that the IAA dumped-- all were offered employment and most are now full and permanent IAA controllers. They were dumped temporarily after the downturn in 2001/2002. They werent dumped and never seen again if you catch my drift.
Previous advice of a getting an employment law expert to check over any contract is very sound. It may cost a pretty penny now in a fee but is small money in the context of your long term employment.
Your training contract will never include an absolute guarantee of post training employment.This is for various reasons all of which are to legally protect the IAA from having to give you a job once your training contract expires.Having said that the IAA dont recruit unless they think they will need you and the demographics in the company means they will need you in the short to medium term.I dont know of any scp that has completed all training and not been offered a permanent contract.
Underdog what have they offered you exactly? Please specify pay p.a and repayment terms of training costs.?
The active repayment of training costs is new and is counter-productive imo. All previous scp were bonded over a few years which was fair enough to protect the IAA's investment in the people they had just trained up thereby avoiding the situation in NATS that can pertain with new recruits at the moment.
The class that the IAA dumped-- all were offered employment and most are now full and permanent IAA controllers. They were dumped temporarily after the downturn in 2001/2002. They werent dumped and never seen again if you catch my drift.
Previous advice of a getting an employment law expert to check over any contract is very sound. It may cost a pretty penny now in a fee but is small money in the context of your long term employment.
Your training contract will never include an absolute guarantee of post training employment.This is for various reasons all of which are to legally protect the IAA from having to give you a job once your training contract expires.Having said that the IAA dont recruit unless they think they will need you and the demographics in the company means they will need you in the short to medium term.I dont know of any scp that has completed all training and not been offered a permanent contract.
Underdog what have they offered you exactly? Please specify pay p.a and repayment terms of training costs.?
The active repayment of training costs is new and is counter-productive imo. All previous scp were bonded over a few years which was fair enough to protect the IAA's investment in the people they had just trained up thereby avoiding the situation in NATS that can pertain with new recruits at the moment.
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Underdog
If you don't state the full facts how do expect to get a balanced reply?
Since you knew what you were offered but chose not to disclose that to us and then asked a question which gave the impression that you were being offered similar terms to which you are already on, you are wasting everyone's time and thoroughly deserve the criticism you got.
If you take professional advice, make sure you're a bit more forthcoming with the facts otherwise you'll be wasting your time and your own money.
If you don't state the full facts how do expect to get a balanced reply?
Since you knew what you were offered but chose not to disclose that to us and then asked a question which gave the impression that you were being offered similar terms to which you are already on, you are wasting everyone's time and thoroughly deserve the criticism you got.
If you take professional advice, make sure you're a bit more forthcoming with the facts otherwise you'll be wasting your time and your own money.
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goatface et al...
The guy asks a perfectly reasonable couple of questions and gets slam dunked by a group of prima donnas from across the water.
How the hell is he supposed to know how the preceding course is getting along with their training? Perhaps you guys were given a Jedi mind link prior to beginning your training course to use, he seems to be using the most appropriate arena if he is not personally acquainted with any SNN controllers.
FYI there have been a number of occasions where SCP trainees were binned for no apparent reason, a number of them were just failed as they were not required at the time (a couple of years ago). Those guys were not re-employed.
The SCP course that were tarted out to South Africa have are now currently working in Shannon.
Underdog...the SCP7 guys are approaching the end of their training, no one has yet checked out and thus far I don't know of any dropouts.
Tough call but if you have any questions for me, give me a shout, I'm currently working in Shannon on High Level.
How the hell is he supposed to know how the preceding course is getting along with their training? Perhaps you guys were given a Jedi mind link prior to beginning your training course to use, he seems to be using the most appropriate arena if he is not personally acquainted with any SNN controllers.
FYI there have been a number of occasions where SCP trainees were binned for no apparent reason, a number of them were just failed as they were not required at the time (a couple of years ago). Those guys were not re-employed.
The SCP course that were tarted out to South Africa have are now currently working in Shannon.
Underdog...the SCP7 guys are approaching the end of their training, no one has yet checked out and thus far I don't know of any dropouts.
Tough call but if you have any questions for me, give me a shout, I'm currently working in Shannon on High Level.
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When have the IAA ever sensibly planned staffing??? Maybe some of the guys who went out to South Africa should pipe up and tell us about the predicament they were left in after they got dumped......unemployed with only a **** contract overseas as an option...yes they are employed now but the way they were treated was terrible.
The big question is....... if they don't offer you a job in one of the Irish centers do you still have to pay back the training costs??
Great job and all but this deal is too risky.....the world is short of ATCOs...if you think you are able to do the job apply to Eurocontrol or some other provider in Europe..they are all looking for trainees
The big question is....... if they don't offer you a job in one of the Irish centers do you still have to pay back the training costs??
Great job and all but this deal is too risky.....the world is short of ATCOs...if you think you are able to do the job apply to Eurocontrol or some other provider in Europe..they are all looking for trainees
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Divingduck
Underdog did not include all of the information in his post. which after a bit of prompting from beamwidth, came to light.
The facts about what happened vis a vis payment and dumped course etc are very pertinent to his initial question and were probably, in fact, the main reason he asked the questions.
That coupled with the fact, again that only emerged after the initial post, that it was quite some time between his application and his offer.
Questions about contract length etc are again what I would consider basic and would expect anyone serious about a career in ATC to know - the fact that the question was asked because of the way the IAA had acted recently was not explained in the initial post!!
Had those facts been given in the initial post, then the initial responses ffom goatface and myself would have been different.
You only have to look at some of the threads on this forum to see that there are lots of people who just type a question without even looking to see if it has been asked before - it happens time and time again.
It is not a case of 'prima donnas' jumping down his throat, it was a case of people giving perfectly acceptable answers, considering the information that was available.
Full and accurate briefs - a fairly essential basic in ATC, at least for 'primas donnas' over here...
Underdog did not include all of the information in his post. which after a bit of prompting from beamwidth, came to light.
The facts about what happened vis a vis payment and dumped course etc are very pertinent to his initial question and were probably, in fact, the main reason he asked the questions.
That coupled with the fact, again that only emerged after the initial post, that it was quite some time between his application and his offer.
Questions about contract length etc are again what I would consider basic and would expect anyone serious about a career in ATC to know - the fact that the question was asked because of the way the IAA had acted recently was not explained in the initial post!!
Had those facts been given in the initial post, then the initial responses ffom goatface and myself would have been different.
You only have to look at some of the threads on this forum to see that there are lots of people who just type a question without even looking to see if it has been asked before - it happens time and time again.
It is not a case of 'prima donnas' jumping down his throat, it was a case of people giving perfectly acceptable answers, considering the information that was available.
Full and accurate briefs - a fairly essential basic in ATC, at least for 'primas donnas' over here...
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I was offered the same contract as underdog.
The only thing that I spotted related to that was that if we turned down a offer of employment as an ATCO with the IAA. we will be required to repay partial training costs of €85k on leaving.
Atleast they restored the training allowance. For me I want to get my postgrad out of the way, as working shifts wouldn't seem to suit doing a masters part time.
The big question is....... if they don't offer you a job in one of the Irish centers do you still have to pay back the training costs??
Atleast they restored the training allowance. For me I want to get my postgrad out of the way, as working shifts wouldn't seem to suit doing a masters part time.
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So there is a payment during training? How much?
Regarding payback of training costs if you turn down employment with the IAA....does it state anywhere that this employment must be in Ireland??? I have no problem with someone having to pay back costs if they don't take a position in Ireland if offered but what happens if they want to ship you abroad on an underpaid contract somewhere and you refuse....does this then also fall under this clause???
Basically you are relying on the honesty and integrity of a IAA ......not something they are famous for I'm afraid...
Regarding payback of training costs if you turn down employment with the IAA....does it state anywhere that this employment must be in Ireland??? I have no problem with someone having to pay back costs if they don't take a position in Ireland if offered but what happens if they want to ship you abroad on an underpaid contract somewhere and you refuse....does this then also fall under this clause???
Basically you are relying on the honesty and integrity of a IAA ......not something they are famous for I'm afraid...
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Staffing Plan in any ANSP = joke... IAA is no worse than anywhere else.
Job security: I'd suggest at the end of the course it would be highly unlikely that any successful trainees would not be offered a job; unless the great FAB projects swallows the IAA (Shannon in particular)...
I'm currently a contractor (like the duck) at the IAA; I'd bet good money I would be going home before an Irish national was rejected with essentially (albeit trainee status) the same qualifications... Additionally most of the contracts will be expiring about the time the course concludes... Then there are the countless retirements between now and then...
Getting paid to train is IMHO a necessity. Having to support yourself/family/ beg from friends and family is a huge ask for most people; especially for so long. I heard the other day that some people (possibly, most people) initially rejected the offer on the basis of pay. So interested in the truth behind the offer... Company possibly re-thinking the no/low pay option, might be worth holding out for a better offer (but a risk if you're keen)....
StephenM_SMC don't right off shift work re going to uni... It's possible... Essentially 2 years before you'd work "real" shift work anyway... Also from what I've seen the IAA thinks these types of things are important for their business going forward so they may even support you to obtain your quals; depends where your at I guess, certainly worth and e-mail/phone call to find out.
RE SCP7: many approaching ratings this or next twist, second wave hitting the "field" as we speak... So 180 "contact" hours to go for them... AFAIK, no body has missed out during the first wave of "field" training.
Underdog, you're in an unfortunate predicament. Leave a 'sound job' and risk all to get a shot at a better job (can you get a career break?).
I would say go for it; but only if you can get by for the next 5 years with a lower wage than your on now (making huge assumptions)... It will pay off in the end if you are successful, remember many people aren't successful... Not sure what the wipe-out stats are in the IAA school, but it can be over 50% in some places... The IAA certainly isn't the worst ANSP to work for, trust me.
Job security: I'd suggest at the end of the course it would be highly unlikely that any successful trainees would not be offered a job; unless the great FAB projects swallows the IAA (Shannon in particular)...
I'm currently a contractor (like the duck) at the IAA; I'd bet good money I would be going home before an Irish national was rejected with essentially (albeit trainee status) the same qualifications... Additionally most of the contracts will be expiring about the time the course concludes... Then there are the countless retirements between now and then...
Getting paid to train is IMHO a necessity. Having to support yourself/family/ beg from friends and family is a huge ask for most people; especially for so long. I heard the other day that some people (possibly, most people) initially rejected the offer on the basis of pay. So interested in the truth behind the offer... Company possibly re-thinking the no/low pay option, might be worth holding out for a better offer (but a risk if you're keen)....
StephenM_SMC don't right off shift work re going to uni... It's possible... Essentially 2 years before you'd work "real" shift work anyway... Also from what I've seen the IAA thinks these types of things are important for their business going forward so they may even support you to obtain your quals; depends where your at I guess, certainly worth and e-mail/phone call to find out.
RE SCP7: many approaching ratings this or next twist, second wave hitting the "field" as we speak... So 180 "contact" hours to go for them... AFAIK, no body has missed out during the first wave of "field" training.
Underdog, you're in an unfortunate predicament. Leave a 'sound job' and risk all to get a shot at a better job (can you get a career break?).
I would say go for it; but only if you can get by for the next 5 years with a lower wage than your on now (making huge assumptions)... It will pay off in the end if you are successful, remember many people aren't successful... Not sure what the wipe-out stats are in the IAA school, but it can be over 50% in some places... The IAA certainly isn't the worst ANSP to work for, trust me.
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Goatface and Anotherthing....
Get a f***ing grip lads! As Duck already said he asked a simple question obviously trying to figure out where next to turn and you two numpties pin him up and pop some caps in him. Think back to when you had to decide where you wanted your life to go. I'm sure you looked for answers somewhere. So cut the guy some slack and stop being so damn up your own arses!!
Now underdog, to answer your question a little. I left the IAA as a controller to work in the Middle East over a year ago. I have no regrets as it was the best move ever. The IAA aren't a bad company to work for. Obviously like any ANSP they have their moments. With regards all the rmours about what you may or may not be getting paid during your training, give the HR Dept. a call and speak with them. They are very nice a will answer any questions you have re the contract. Getting the contract looked at by a solicitor is sound advice. No harm. The job itself when you eventually get through training is second to none. Shiftwork is great and the money is excellent overall. You have good time off and I think its one of the few jobs that you walk away from most days feeling satisfied. After a couple of years, and your up for a challenge, you can always move abroad or do project work or use your experience to branch out into other areas of aviation.
Given that you have a secure public service job now (although I use "secure" lightly), and the state of the Irish Economy, its obviously a tough decision to make. All I can say to you is whatever decision it is, it soon becomes apparent that its the right one. If you do decide to go and start training, its 100% committment from the off and no less. When you come out the other side (bruised, torn and battered!!!) you will reap the rewards of a great career.
Those numbnuts above who weren't very helpful need to come down off the podium and either give you some useful information or shut the
up!! Ultimately its your decision. Its a tough choice but only you can make it dude!.
Best of luck
.....mow back to the beach.
Get a f***ing grip lads! As Duck already said he asked a simple question obviously trying to figure out where next to turn and you two numpties pin him up and pop some caps in him. Think back to when you had to decide where you wanted your life to go. I'm sure you looked for answers somewhere. So cut the guy some slack and stop being so damn up your own arses!!
Now underdog, to answer your question a little. I left the IAA as a controller to work in the Middle East over a year ago. I have no regrets as it was the best move ever. The IAA aren't a bad company to work for. Obviously like any ANSP they have their moments. With regards all the rmours about what you may or may not be getting paid during your training, give the HR Dept. a call and speak with them. They are very nice a will answer any questions you have re the contract. Getting the contract looked at by a solicitor is sound advice. No harm. The job itself when you eventually get through training is second to none. Shiftwork is great and the money is excellent overall. You have good time off and I think its one of the few jobs that you walk away from most days feeling satisfied. After a couple of years, and your up for a challenge, you can always move abroad or do project work or use your experience to branch out into other areas of aviation.
Given that you have a secure public service job now (although I use "secure" lightly), and the state of the Irish Economy, its obviously a tough decision to make. All I can say to you is whatever decision it is, it soon becomes apparent that its the right one. If you do decide to go and start training, its 100% committment from the off and no less. When you come out the other side (bruised, torn and battered!!!) you will reap the rewards of a great career.
Those numbnuts above who weren't very helpful need to come down off the podium and either give you some useful information or shut the
up!! Ultimately its your decision. Its a tough choice but only you can make it dude!.Best of luck
.....mow back to the beach.